Podcasts > Jocko Podcast > 487: What We All Can Learn From Being a "New Guy". With Bobby Holland.

487: What We All Can Learn From Being a "New Guy". With Bobby Holland.

By Jocko DEFCOR Network

In this episode of Jocko Podcast, military leaders Jocko Willink and Bobby Holland share insights about integrating into new teams. They cover fundamental attitudes that help new team members succeed, including the importance of staying humble, learning from mistakes, and putting team success ahead of individual achievements. The discussion also addresses proper execution of procedures and the value of being proactive in supporting teammates.

Willink and Holland explore the role of effective communication through the chain of command and share strategies for maintaining both physical and mental fitness. Their conversation includes specific recommendations for consistent training, strategic rest periods, and continuous learning. They emphasize that success in high-stakes operations requires attention to detail, precise execution, and dedication to standard operating procedures.

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487: What We All Can Learn From Being a "New Guy". With Bobby Holland.

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487: What We All Can Learn From Being a "New Guy". With Bobby Holland.

1-Page Summary

Mindset and Attitude for New Team Members

Military leaders Jocko Willink and Bobby Holland discuss essential attitudes for success when joining a new team. Drawing from the Master Chief's advice, Willink emphasizes the importance of "keeping your mouth shut and ears open," highlighting the value of humility and eagerness to learn. Holland adds that being prepared and maintaining curiosity are crucial traits for new team members.

Both leaders stress the importance of owning up to mistakes and learning from them. According to Willink, repeated mistakes are particularly problematic as they indicate a failure to learn. The discussion emphasizes that prioritizing team success over individual achievements is fundamental to becoming an effective team member.

Practical Protocols and Procedures

Attention to detail and precise execution are critical in high-stakes operations. Holland discusses the importance of rehearsing procedures and maintaining equipment, while Willink emphasizes the necessity of punctuality, suggesting arriving 15-30 minutes early for critical tasks. Both leaders stress adherence to standard operating procedures, with Holland noting his mantra "do it right or do it again."

Building Leadership and Teamwork Skills

The discussion highlights the importance of being proactive in supporting teammates. Willink introduces the concept of "looking for work," encouraging team members to seek out tasks autonomously. Holland shares personal experiences demonstrating the value of team support, including receiving help during heat exhaustion from a teammate.

Effective communication through the chain of command is emphasized as essential for addressing issues and requesting resources. Both leaders stress the importance of learning from experienced team members before assuming leadership roles, with Willink sharing his own experience of needing to earn his place despite previous accomplishments.

Maintaining Physical and Mental Fitness

Physical fitness requires consistent training, according to both Willink and Holland. They warn against taking extended breaks from exercise, with Holland noting that after age 40, fitness losses can become permanent. Mental sharpness is equally important, with Willink recommending continuous learning through new skills and languages to maintain mental flexibility.

For recovery, Willink advocates for strategic rest periods, such as lying down with feet elevated above the heart, while Holland endorses short naps as a restorative practice. Both leaders emphasize the importance of proper nutrition and guided fitness plans for sustained performance.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • While humility is important, new team members should also feel empowered to share fresh perspectives or ideas that could benefit the team.
  • Owning up to mistakes is crucial, but creating an environment where mistakes are seen as learning opportunities rather than failures can foster innovation and risk-taking.
  • Team success is important, but recognizing individual contributions can also be motivating and help identify leaders within the team.
  • Adherence to standard operating procedures is essential, but there should also be room for adaptability and improvisation when unexpected situations arise.
  • Arriving early is generally good advice, but it's also important to respect personal time and work-life balance to prevent burnout.
  • Being proactive is valuable, but it's also important to ensure that this does not lead to overstepping boundaries or taking on too much, which can lead to inefficiency or burnout.
  • Learning from experienced team members is beneficial, but new leaders should also be encouraged to bring their own unique leadership styles and ideas to the table.
  • Consistent physical training is important, but it should be balanced with listening to one's body and allowing for adequate recovery to prevent injury.
  • Continuous learning is key for mental sharpness, but it's also important to recognize the value of downtime and relaxation for mental health.
  • Strategic rest and nutrition are important, but individual needs can vary greatly, and what works for one person may not work for another. Personalized approaches to recovery and nutrition are often necessary.

Actionables

  • You can enhance your learning in a new environment by starting a reflection journal. After each day or meeting, jot down what you observed, questions that arose, and what you learned. This practice not only reinforces humility and curiosity but also serves as a personal record of your growth and areas where you need more understanding.
  • Create a "team success" chart to visually prioritize collective goals over individual ones. On a whiteboard or digital app, list team objectives and track contributions from all members, encouraging a culture where everyone adds value towards shared achievements. This visual reminder helps keep the focus on the team's progress and fosters a collaborative spirit.
  • Develop a personal "readiness routine" before high-stakes tasks to ensure attention to detail and precise execution. This could include a checklist of materials and information you need, a set of stretches or breathing exercises to focus your mind, and a review of the standard operating procedures. By consistently following this routine, you'll be better prepared and more confident in your ability to perform effectively.

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487: What We All Can Learn From Being a "New Guy". With Bobby Holland.

Mindset and Attitude for New Team Members

When joining a new team, it’s crucial to come in with the right mindset and attitude. Through the guidance of experienced leaders like Jocko Willink and Bobby Holland, we explore the critical aspects that new team members should embody to ensure success and growth.

Maintain Humility and an Eagerness to Learn

The Master Chief's advice, as interpreted by Jocko Willink, is to "Keep your mouth shut. Keep your ears open." This advice is about being humble and willing to listen, a trait that Willink finds to remain important. Being teachable and eager to learn is emphasized by both Willink and Holland.

Adopt a Teachable Mindset, Open To Learning From Experience

Having a notebook is suggested by Willink as a sign of readiness to learn, and this reinforces the importance of showing up with the intent to absorb new information. Holland emphasizes the idea of coming in humble, having done the necessary homework, and being ready to undergo the learning process.

To be better prepared for advanced training, Holland performed pre-work with the new members. This readiness to learn under pressure enables better performance as a unit. Bobby Holland further suggests staying curious and recognizing that there is always more to learn.

Demonstrate Accountability and Ownership of Mistakes

Take Responsibility For Errors and Use Them to Improve

When mistakes are made, it is crucial for team members to own up to these errors and learn from them, rather than repeat them. Willink explains that in the teams, a repeated mistake is unacceptable and dealt with sternly because it demonstrates a failure to learn from the initial error.

Willink recounts a story where a team member tried to cover up a mistake and only when he admitted the truth could the situation be properly addressed. Similarly, Holland discusses the importance for experienced members and leaders to acknowledge their errors, as it sets a precedent for the rest of the team and affects their roles in leadership.

Cultivate a Team-First Mentality

Prio ...

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Mindset and Attitude for New Team Members

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Counterarguments

  • While humility is important, too much humility can prevent individuals from showcasing their strengths and contributing their unique ideas, which can be valuable to the team.
  • A teachable mindset is beneficial, but it should be balanced with confidence in one's own knowledge and experience, which can also add value to the team.
  • While it's important to demonstrate accountability, an excessive focus on ownership of mistakes can lead to a culture of fear and blame, which may stifle innovation and risk-taking.
  • Taking responsibility for errors is crucial, but it's also important to create an environment where mistakes are seen as a natural part of the learning process, rather than something to be ashamed of.
  • A team-first mentality is key, but individual goals and personal development should no ...

Actionables

  • Start a reflection journal to track personal growth and learning opportunities. Each day, write down what you learned, how you demonstrated humility, and any mistakes you made. Reflect on how these experiences contribute to your team's goals and what you can do differently next time. This practice will help you internalize a teachable mindset and recognize the value of every experience.
  • Create a "team success plan" with your colleagues or friends where you set shared goals and define how each person's contributions lead to the overall mission. Meet regularly to discuss progress, celebrate collective achievements, and strategize on how to overcome challenges together. This fosters a team-first mentality and ensures that individual actions are aligned with the group's success.
  • Implement a ...

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487: What We All Can Learn From Being a "New Guy". With Bobby Holland.

Practical Protocols and Procedures for New Team Members

Bobby Holland and Jocko Willink stress the need for new team members to embrace rigor, precision, and adherence to protocols to function efficiently in high-stakes operations.

Prioritize Attention To Detail and Precision

Optimize Gear, Weapons, and Equipment Maintenance

The importance of attention to detail is heavily stressed through training and all operations. Holland speaks about rehearsing breaching and assaulting to become efficient and minimize time on target. Both Holland and Willink emphasize the significance of gear maintenance. Not only should gear be optimized, there must be redundancy for critical equipment. Holland and Willink provide insights such as maintaining night vision goggles or lasers and pre-staging items such as adhesive tape for easy access. This meticulous organization of gear ensures maximum efficiency during operations.

Develop Strong Time Management and Organizational Skills

Arrive Early, Stay Punctual, and Stay Organized

The sentiment that "how you do anything is how you do everything" underscores the importance of punctuality and organization. Willink emphasizes that good judgment reflects on one's ability to show up on time with the appropriate equipment and to take care of team gear before personal gear. According to Willink, being early is standard practice, with 15 minutes considered normative and 30 minutes advisable for critical tasks. He emphasizes the importance of punctuality, recalling advice he received: don't be late, don't forget any gear.

Embrace the Team's Standard Operating Procedures

Adhere To Protocols and Processes, Avoiding Shortcuts

Holland points out the nee ...

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Practical Protocols and Procedures for New Team Members

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Counterarguments

  • While attention to detail is crucial, there is a risk of over-focusing on minor details at the expense of flexibility and adaptability in dynamic situations.
  • Rehearsing specific scenarios is important, but over-rehearsal can lead to a lack of preparedness for unexpected challenges that require improvisation.
  • Redundancy for critical equipment is wise, but over-redundancy can lead to unnecessary weight and complexity, potentially hindering mobility and efficiency.
  • Punctuality and organization are important, but a rigid adherence to these principles can sometimes create a stressful environment that may not be conducive to creative problem-solving.
  • Being early as a standard practice is generally good, but it can also result in wasted time and resources if not balanced with other priorities.
  • Strict adherence to protocols and processes is important for safety and consistency, but there may be situations where deviation from SOPs is necessary to achieve the best outcome.
  • Training to a specific plan A is essential, but overemphasis on a single plan can lead t ...

Actionables

  • You can enhance your daily routine by setting a "gear check" for your essentials before leaving the house, ensuring you have everything you need for the day's tasks.
    • Similar to how soldiers check their equipment, create a checklist of items you need daily, like keys, wallet, phone, and any special items for specific days. Review this list every morning as part of your routine to instill the habit of thorough preparation.
  • Develop a personal standard operating procedure (SOP) for tasks you perform regularly to increase efficiency and reduce mistakes.
    • For example, if you're preparing a weekly report, create a step-by-step guide that outlines each stage of the process, from data collection to final review. Follow this guide each time to ensure consistency and quality.
  • Start a punctuali ...

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487: What We All Can Learn From Being a "New Guy". With Bobby Holland.

Building Leadership and Teamwork Skills

Effective leadership and teamwork are vital components for any successful operation, particularly within high-stakes environments like the military's SEAL teams. Below, we explore the key skills necessary for building a strong and effective team.

Contribute and Support the Team

The discussion emphasizes the importance of team members being proactive in their roles. For new members, understanding the mission and being well-informed is crucial. Notably, the SEAL teams foster a culture of covering and caring for each other, as illustrated by the "swim buddy" concept, where teammates put each other and the team ahead of personal interests.

Proactively Assist Teammates and Complete Tasks

Proactive assistance and completing tasks are crucial aspects of teamwork highlighted throughout the discussion. For instance, the term "look for work" suggests a mentality of always being on the lookout to help teammates. It doesn't just end with one’s own tasks; there's always more work to be done for the team, like cleaning boats and gear post-operation. Willink discusses the expectation for new team members to seek out tasks autonomously, while Holland shares a personal experience of receiving help from a teammate, Leif, during heat exhaustion, demonstrating camaraderie.

Furthermore, Willink's anecdote about military uniforms underscores the connection between team presentation and morale, while Holland's recollection of being corrected by his team emphasizes a supportive environment that helps members learn from mistakes. The need to stay vigilant, as demonstrated by Willink's experience in Iraq, highlights the importance of focus within the team to achieve objectives. Willink and Holland both recall instances where carrying extra weight and handling grueling tasks were part and parcel of being new to the team — a testament to teamwork and personal dedication.

Communicate Effectively Up and Down the Chain

Effective communication within the chain of command is essential for addressing issues, resource requests, and feedback. The discussion touches upon the virtues of using a notebook to capture instructions and to signify engagement. Asking questions like, "What could I do better?" is part of engaging in efficient communication and improving oneself. Willink underscores the necessity of using the chain of command properly, while his mention of planning requirements infers the need for clear and precise communication for the execution of tasks and strategies.

Demonstrate the Ability to Follow Before Leading

A common thread throughout the conversation is the significance of learning from experienced team members and the value of following before assuming leadership roles. New members are encouraged to learn from leadership and become immersed in team protocols. Willink himself was reminded as a SEAL team newbie that he needed to earn his place, despite previous training accom ...

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Building Leadership and Teamwork Skills

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Counterarguments

  • While proactivity is important, there is a risk of overstepping or duplicating efforts if not properly coordinated with the team.
  • The culture of covering and caring for each other can sometimes lead to groupthink or an unwillingness to challenge the status quo, which can be detrimental in certain situations.
  • The emphasis on always looking for work could potentially lead to burnout or a lack of focus on one's primary responsibilities.
  • Autonomy in seeking out tasks is valuable, but it must be balanced with clear guidance and priorities from leadership to ensure that efforts align with the team's objectives.
  • While camaraderie is crucial, there can be a fine line between helping teammates and enabling dependency or a lack of self-sufficiency.
  • The connection between team presentation and morale might not always hold true, as some individuals may prioritize substance over style.
  • A supportive environment is important, but it should not prevent constructive criticism or the ability to have difficult conversations when necessary.
  • Vigilance is key, but there must also be room for rest and recovery to maintain long-term effectiveness and prevent errors due to fatigue.
  • The expectation to carry extra weight and handle grueling tasks could be seen as hazing or unnecessary hardship, especially if not directly contributing to the team's mission.
  • Effective communication is essential, but rigid adherence to the chain of command can sometimes slow down decision-making or hinder the flow of information.
  • Using a notebook is helpful, but over-reliance on written notes can impede the development of active listening and memory skills.
  • Asking for feedback is important, but it should be balanced with self-assessment and the ability to self-correct without constant external input.
  • The principle of following before leading can be valuable, but there are situations where fresh perspectives or innovative thinking from new members should be encouraged.
  • Learning from experienced team members is crucial, but it should not stifle creativity o ...

Actionables

  • Create a "teamwork journal" to document instances where you've helped others and they've helped you, reflecting on the impact of these actions on team dynamics. By keeping track of these moments, you'll become more aware of the importance of mutual support and how it strengthens the team. For example, note when you stayed late to assist a colleague with a project and how it improved the project's outcome and your relationship with that colleague.
  • Develop a "skill swap" program within your team where members can teach each other one of their strengths or areas of expertise. This encourages a culture of continuous learning and mutual respect. For instance, if you're proficient in data analysis, offer a brief tutorial to interested teammates, and in return, learn about effective presentation skills from a colleague who excels in that area.
  • Initiate a "mista ...

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487: What We All Can Learn From Being a "New Guy". With Bobby Holland.

Maintaining Physical and Mental Fitness

Prioritize Consistent Physical Training and Conditioning

Jocko Willink and Bobby Holland emphasize the critical importance of maintaining physical fitness through consistent training. Willink speaks about the harm in ceasing workouts for extended periods, such as after a trip or during family events. He notes that while rigorous training like BUD/S can maintain fitness temporarily, it doesn't last forever without sustained effort. Holland echoes this sentiment, stating that after the age of 40, if exercise isn't consistent, there is a risk of permanent fitness loss. Both underscore the importance of never taking extended breaks from exercise, with Jocko discussing his personal regimen of jujitsu, lifting, and running, and Holland highlighting the continued training despite having back issues.

Stay Fit With Regular Exercise, Even Off-duty

Willink recounts being in a combat outpost in intense heat and sweating as though he had been exercising, illustrating the demanding physical nature of service work even when not actively engaged in training. He also emphasizes the importance of physical training in civilian life, suggesting that the focus on knowledge in the civilian sector often leads to neglecting physical fitness. Preparedness for various conditions, which can be indirectly related to maintaining physical fitness, is implied through the mention of bringing appropriate gear like a beanie and a Gore-Tex jacket.

Nurture Mental Sharpness and Adaptability

Willink and Holland discuss the importance of mental sharpness and adaptability in decision-making and problem-solving. The two-person integrity requirement for opening secure safes is mentioned as a method to check against rash decisions. Holland highlights the value of humility and the application of the OODA loop's principle of deliberate decision-making. Willink notes that newer team members should be open to adopting technology and improving efficiency. In a high-stress situation like skydiving, Holland points out that focusing on procedure was essential, while Willink advises keeping the world ...

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Maintaining Physical and Mental Fitness

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Counterarguments

  • While consistent training is important, the body also needs time to recover; overtraining can lead to injuries and burnout.
  • Extended breaks from exercise might be necessary in certain circumstances, such as injury, illness, or significant life events, and fitness can often be regained with a structured approach.
  • The emphasis on never taking breaks may not account for the psychological benefits of rest periods and the potential for increased motivation and performance upon return.
  • Physical training is important, but it should be balanced with other aspects of life, such as family, work, and mental health; overemphasis on fitness can lead to neglect in these areas.
  • Preparedness for various conditions is more complex than just maintaining physical fitness; it also involves mental preparedness, strategic planning, and having the right equipment.
  • Mental sharpness and adaptability are crucial, but so are emotional intelligence and the ability to work well with others, which are not emphasized in the text.
  • The two-person integrity requirement is a good safeguard, but it may not be practical in all decision-making scenarios, especially those requiring quick, individual action.
  • While the OODA loop is a valuable concept, there are alternative decision-making models that might be more appropriate in certain contexts.
  • Focusing on procedure is important, but there should also be room for innovation and adaptability in high-stress situations.
  • Learning new skills is be ...

Actionables

  • You can integrate micro-workouts into your daily routine to keep active without needing a block of time. Set a timer for every hour to do a minute of bodyweight exercises like squats, push-ups, or jumping jacks. This keeps your body engaged throughout the day and can be done anywhere, from your office to your living room.
  • Create a decision journal to enhance mental sharpness and decision-making skills. Every day, write down a significant decision you made, the thought process behind it, and the outcome. Review this journal monthly to identify patterns in your decision-making and areas for improvement, fostering a habit of reflective thinking.
  • Develop a 'rest ritual' to ensure you're getting adeq ...

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