Podcasts > Jocko Podcast > 463: Urban Warfare Perspective on Ukraine and Israel. With John Spencer

463: Urban Warfare Perspective on Ukraine and Israel. With John Spencer

By Jocko DEFCOR Network

In this episode of the Jocko Podcast, John Spencer, an expert on urban warfare, shares his insights on modern urban conflicts. He discusses his academic research and analyses of pivotal battles in cities like Mariupol, Sarajevo, and Mumbai. Spencer highlights the complexities adversaries face in urban environments, like the intricate tunnel networks built by groups like Hamas and their use of human shields and propaganda tactics.

Spencer also delves into the challenges militaries encounter and strategies they employ in combating urban warfare, drawing from his advisory work and on-the-ground research into recent incidents like the October 2022 attacks in Israel. This episode provides an insightful look into the evolving landscape of urban warfare through the lens of Spencer's meticulous case studies and firsthand observations.

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463: Urban Warfare Perspective on Ukraine and Israel. With John Spencer

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463: Urban Warfare Perspective on Ukraine and Israel. With John Spencer

1-Page Summary

Spencer's career path and academic focus on urban warfare

Spencer transitioned from military service to teaching urban warfare at West Point's Modern War Institute

After serving 25 years in the U.S. Army, John Spencer transitioned to an academic role focused on urban warfare. He became deputy director of West Point's newly created Modern War Institute, taking up the chair of urban warfare studies. Working in General Odierno's Strategic Studies Group, Spencer had identified gaps in preparedness for warfare in megacities. At West Point, he aimed to address this by creating programs for cadets to study past urban conflicts and learn urban operations planning.

Case studies and lessons learned from major urban battles

Spencer conducts meticulous research on pivotal urban battles to extract insights on tactics and challenges

Spencer reconstructs past urban battles like those in Mariupol, Sarajevo, and Mumbai through firsthand interviews and site visits. His analyses identify key factors such as terrain usage, the role of tunnels and underground infrastructure, and the difficulties of densely populated areas. Spencer leverages experiences from commanders to provide comprehensive case studies illuminating strategic elements impacting urban warfare.

The complexities and challenges of modern urban warfare

Adversaries exploit the urban environment, using tunnels, human shields, and propaganda

Spencer details how modern adversaries like Hamas build vast tunnel networks, embed within civilian populations, and use information warfare tactics to shape narratives and garner sympathy. Combating this requires innovation from militaries like Israel, who employ "call-out" operations, precision strikes, and developing tunnel detection and combat capabilities.

Spencer's advisory and research work in other recent urban conflicts

Spencer conducts on-the-ground research to understand recent incidents like the October 7th, 2022 attack in Israel

Following the October 7th attacks, Spencer visited Gaza to study Israel's mobilization. He examined the terrorists' use of tactics like public displays of violence, body cameras, and drugs. Spencer also researched Israel's response strategies, underground tunnel operations, and engagement with stakeholders like the U.N. His work contributes to broader policy discussions on urban warfare.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Spencer's focus on urban warfare might overlook the importance of hybrid warfare, which includes cyber and information warfare, as well as traditional combat.
  • The case studies of urban battles may not fully account for the rapidly changing nature of warfare, where technology and new tactics can quickly make past lessons less relevant.
  • The emphasis on adversaries using urban environments to their advantage could be balanced with a discussion on the ethical and legal challenges faced by militaries in these settings.
  • The research on Israel's response strategies and tactics might benefit from a broader perspective that includes the political and humanitarian implications of such actions.
  • Spencer's work, while valuable, may not sufficiently address the root causes of conflict that lead to urban warfare, such as political, economic, and social factors.
  • The focus on military solutions to urban warfare could be complemented by exploring non-military approaches, such as conflict prevention, diplomacy, and urban planning.
  • The analysis of adversaries' tactics like using human shields and propaganda could be expanded to include a critique of how all parties in a conflict might employ similar tactics.
  • The case studies and insights drawn from specific urban battles may not be universally applicable to all urban warfare scenarios due to cultural, geographical, and political differences.

Actionables

  • You can enhance your critical thinking skills by analyzing complex systems in your environment, similar to how urban warfare requires understanding of intricate cityscapes. Start by choosing a complex system you interact with daily, like public transportation or your local government services. Break it down into its components, identify potential vulnerabilities, and think about how you would improve its efficiency or security.
  • Develop a habit of learning from historical events by creating a personal project that investigates a past event's impact on your community. Choose a significant event in your local history, conduct interviews with residents who experienced it, visit relevant sites, and compile your findings into a report or presentation. This mirrors the process of extracting insights from past battles and can deepen your understanding of your community's resilience and challenges.
  • Improve your problem-solving skills by simulating crisis scenarios and strategizing responses. For example, imagine a natural disaster hitting your city and think through how you would navigate the challenges. Consider factors like transportation, communication, and resource management. This exercise can help you prepare for real-life emergencies and develop a strategic mindset.

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463: Urban Warfare Perspective on Ukraine and Israel. With John Spencer

Spencer's career path and academic focus on urban warfare

John Spencer's journey from active duty in the U.S. Army to a pivotal academic role underscores his profound commitment to understanding and teaching the complexities of urban warfare.

Spencer transitioned from military service to an academic role at West Point, where he studied urban warfare and the challenges of operating in megacities

After serving 25 years in the Army, rising from private to major and serving as a platoon leader and company commander in Iraq, Spencer transitioned from military service to an academic role at West Point. His experiences fueled his interest in urban warfare, particularly in the context of rapidly growing megacities.

During his tenure at the Pentagon working for General Odierno's Strategic Studies Group, Spencer focused his study on urbanization and identified that more warfare would likely take place in urban areas. He concluded that the U.S. military was not adequately prepared for such operations, which led to recommendations to address this gap.

Becoming deputy director of the newly created Modern War Institute at West Point, teaching strategy and urban warfare to cadets

Spencer's academic pursuit saw him becoming the deputy director of the Modern War Institute at West Point and taking up the chair of urban warfare studies. He was instrumental in creating a research center aimed at preparing cadets for modern wars through their studies. As part of the Contemporary Battlefield Assessments program, he took West Point cadets to Bosnia and Mumbai to study past urban conflicts, such as the siege of Sarajevo and the 2008 Mumbai attacks.

In the role of an educator, Spencer highlights the importance of firsthand experience in understanding urban warfare. He even takes cadets to New York City ...

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Spencer's career path and academic focus on urban warfare

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • General Odierno's Strategic Studies Group was a team within the Pentagon led by General Raymond Odierno. The group focused on strategic planning and analysis, particularly in areas like urban warfare and future military challenges. John Spencer worked within this group, studying urbanization trends and the implications for military operations.
  • The Contemporary Battlefield Assessments program at West Point involves taking cadets to various locations to study past urban conflicts firsthand, such as the siege of Sarajevo and the 2008 Mumbai attacks. This program provides students with practical insights into the complexities of urban warfare by examining historical events in real-world settings. It aims to enhance cadets' understanding of modern warfare challenges and strategies through experiential learning opportunities. The program helps bridge the gap between theoretical knowledge and practical application in preparing future military leaders for urban combat scenarios.
  • The Siege of Sarajevo was a prolonged blockade of the capital of Bosnia and Herzegovina during the Bosnian War, lasting from 1992 to 1996. The city was besieged by the Army of Republika Srpska, leading to significant civilian casualties and destruction. The siege was one of the longest in modern warfare history, characterized by heavy shelling and a blockade that caused immense suffering to the city's residents. The siege ended with the signing of the Dayton Agreement in 1995.
  • The 2008 Mumbai attacks were a series of terrorist incidents in Mumbai, India, carried out by militants from the group Lashkar-e-Taiba. The attacks targeted multiple locations in the city, resulting in a significant loss of life and injuries. The siege lasted for several days before security forces were able to neutralize the attackers. The incident highlighted the threat of terrorism and the challenges posed by such coordinated attacks in urban areas.
  • Megacities are urban areas with populations exceeding 10 million people. Their power lies in their economic, social, and political influence on regional and global scales. Megacities can shape national policies, drive innovation, and have significant impacts on the world stage due to their sheer size and complexity. Understanding their dynamics is crucial for military strategists and policymakers due to the unique challenges they present in terms of security, governance, and conflict resolution.
  • An urban operations planners course is a specialized training program designed to educate military personnel, particularly those in divisions and brigades, ...

Counterarguments

  • The focus on urban warfare might overshadow the need for a balanced military curriculum that also addresses other forms of combat and strategic environments.
  • The emphasis on megacities could lead to a disproportionate allocation of resources and training that may not be applicable in other, more common conflict settings.
  • The assertion that the U.S. military is not prepared for urban operations could be challenged by pointing out ongoing training programs and initiatives that address urban combat.
  • The effectiveness of taking cadets to cities like New York for firsthand experience could be questioned in terms of how well it translates to combat scenarios in less developed urban environments.
  • The claim of a significant knowledge gap in urban warfare within the U.S. military might be contested by highlighting existing expertise and historical experiences in urban conflicts.
  • The approach of studying past urban conflicts may not fully account for the evolving ...

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463: Urban Warfare Perspective on Ukraine and Israel. With John Spencer

Case studies and lessons learned from major urban battles

John Spencer has conducted extensive in-depth research on pivotal urban battles from World War II to the present, drawing insights from firsthand accounts and comprehensive analysis.

Spencer has conducted in-depth research and case studies on pivotal urban battles throughout history, from World War II to the present day

Examined battles like the siege of Sarajevo, the 2008 Mumbai attacks, and the Battle of Nagorno-Karabakh to extract insights on urban warfare tactics and challenges

Spencer is reconstructing past urban battles through firsthand interviews with participants, from generals to soldiers, analyzing key moments and tactics used. For example, he highlighted how a company of Ukrainians prevented Russian forces from entering Kyiv and how about 3,000 Ukrainian soldiers held off 20,000 Russians at Mariupol using a steel factory's underground facilities for over 80 days. Spencer has also visited the sites of past conflicts, such as Bosnia and Mumbai, to study urban warfare tactics further. He has published articles about urban warfare, discussing drone use, historical battles like Stalingrad, Aachen, Ortona, Fallujah, and observations from the Second War of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Leveraged firsthand experiences and interviews with commanders to provide comprehensive analyses of these urban battles

Spencer uses case studies from various urban battles such as the Battle of Mosul, where despite using precision-guided munitions to limit destruction, 80% of Western Mosul was destroyed. He also examined the Battle of Manila where, due to MacArthur's directive against the use of air power, urban warfare prolonged and led to high civilian casualties, contrasting with the Battle of Seoul where a similar approach resulted in no recorded civilian deaths. Spencer's approach includes his own personal experiences, like those in Sadr City, contributing to his analyses.

Identified key factors such as the importance of terrain, the role of tunnels and underground infrastructure, and the challenges of fighting in densely populated areas

Whilst reinvestigating the fall of a decisi ...

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Case studies and lessons learned from major urban battles

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • While firsthand interviews provide valuable insights, they may also be subject to personal biases and the fog of war, which can affect the accuracy of the recounted events.
  • The focus on specific battles may not fully represent the broader scope of urban warfare, as each conflict has unique circumstances that may not be generalizable.
  • The destruction in urban battles like Mosul may have been influenced by factors other than the use of precision-guided munitions, such as the intensity of the fighting and the tactics of the opposing forces.
  • The claim that there were no recorded civilian deaths in the Battle of Seoul might overlook unreported casualties or deaths that were not directly attributed to the battle.
  • The use of innovative tactics like blowing a dam is context-specific and may not be applicable or ethical in other urban warfare scenarios.
  • The emphasis on terrain management and the challenges of densely populated areas, while important, might over ...

Actionables

  • You can explore historical urban landscapes through virtual reality tours to better understand the complexities of urban warfare. By using VR applications that simulate historical battlefields, you can gain a spatial sense of the terrain and imagine the strategic considerations that might have been necessary during combat. For example, VR tours of Stalingrad or Fallujah could provide a visual and immersive experience of the urban landscape during intense battles.
  • Start a creative writing project that incorporates the tactics and challenges of urban warfare into fictional narratives. This can help you internalize the concepts by crafting stories set in dense urban settings where characters must navigate the difficulties of urban combat. For instance, you could write a short story about a protagonist using the city's underground tunnels to outmaneuver a superior force, drawing inspiration from the tactics discussed.
  • Engage in strategy-based board games or video games that focus on ur ...

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463: Urban Warfare Perspective on Ukraine and Israel. With John Spencer

The complexities and challenges of modern urban warfare

Modern urban warfare is a multi-faceted challenge that has forced militaries worldwide to innovate and adapt. The conflict in cities, with their dense populations and complex infrastructures, provides a challenging battlefield that blends conventional and asymmetrical warfare.

Urban warfare has become increasingly complex, with adversaries like Hamas and Hezbollah exploiting the urban environment to their advantage.

Adversaries have built extensive underground tunnel networks and fortified urban areas, making them difficult to dislodge

John Spencer details the complexities of modern urban conflict, highlighting the strategic and tactical adaptations both defenders and assailants have made. He elaborates on the massive network of tunnels built by adversaries such as Hamas in the Gaza Strip, extending over 400 miles. These tunnels, equipped with power, lighting, and even ventilation, enable movement across regions while remaining shielded from aerial attacks. They are located deep underground, well beyond the reach of conventional munitions.

The fortification of urban areas and use of tunnels as strategic assets create significant challenges in dislodging combatants. Spencer recounts instances where the Israeli military encountered unexpected resistance due to concealed tunnel networks. The combatants are embedded within civilian populations, complicating military operations and raising grave humanitarian concerns.

Civilians are often used as human shields, complicating efforts to minimize collateral damage

Spencer dissects the troubling practice of using civilians as human shields, a frequent occurrence in the urban battlegrounds of Gaza. This tactic becomes a barrier to minimizing civilian casualties and inflicts psychological warfare on the opposing forces. In his discussion, it becomes clear that such adversarial tactics skew the civilian to combatant casualty ratio and complicate any military's efforts to engage ethically in conflict zones.

The exploitation of civilians stretches to the indoctrination of young generations, with Hamas conducting an information warfare campaign to cement hatred and a desire for the destruction of the Israeli state from a young age.

Adversaries have also become adept at information warfare, using social media and propaganda to shape the narrative and garner international sympathy

The adversaries’ use of information warfare is also a factor in modern urban fighting. Spencer notes that misinformation about Israeli actions is a tool used by groups like Hamas, who manipulate media coverage and social media to portray Israel as aggressors. The projection of their narrative to the world often involves claims intended to incite international reactions and interventions, influencing perceptions beyond the immediate conflict zone.

Israel has developed innovative tactics and technologies to address the challenges of urban warfare, including the use of "call-out" operations and subterranean maneuver

Israel has implemented stringent measures to protect civilian lives amid escalating urban conflicts. A notable method is t ...

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The complexities and challenges of modern urban warfare

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Asymmetrical warfare involves conflicts where opposing sides have significantly different military power or strategies. It often includes unconventional tactics by weaker forces to counterbalance their disadvantages. This type of warfare is common in situations where one side lacks traditional military strength. It contrasts with symmetrical warfare, where opponents have similar resources and tactics.
  • Conventional munitions are traditional weapons that rely on explosive, incendiary, or kinetic energy for their destructive power. These weapons are distinct from weapons of mass destruction like nuclear or chemical arms. Conventional munitions include bombs, shells, rockets, and missiles, and are governed by international agreements like the Geneva Conventions.
  • Collateral damage in warfare refers to unintended harm or damage caused to civilians or civilian property during military operations. It often occurs when military actions target legitimate military objectives but inadvertently impact non-combatants. The term is used to describe the unintended consequences of military actions, highlighting the complexities and ethical considerations in conflict situations. Critics argue that the term can sometimes dehumanize civilian victims and downplay the responsibility of military decision-makers.
  • Information warfare involves using information and communication technologies to gain an advantage over an opponent by manipulating information, spreading propaganda, and undermining the quality of the opposing force's information. It includes tactics like spreading disinformation, demoralizing the enemy, and denying information-collection opportunities to opposing forces. Information warfare is closely linked to psychological warfare and can encompass various tactics beyond cyberwarfare.
  • Subterranean maneuver in urban warfare involves utilizing underground spaces like ...

Counterarguments

  • The effectiveness of "call-out" operations and other warning tactics can be questioned, as they may also give combatants time to prepare or escape, potentially undermining the military operation's effectiveness.
  • The use of advanced technologies and tactics by a state actor like Israel might not be replicable for less resourced militaries facing similar urban warfare challenges, raising questions about the scalability and accessibility of such innovations.
  • The focus on Israeli innovations may overshadow the need for broader international discussions on the laws of war and the protection of civilians, suggesting that technological and tactical advancements alone are not sufficient to address the ethical complexities of urban warfare.
  • The narrative may underrepresent the perspectives and experiences of the civilian populations in conflict zones, who bear the brunt of the urban warfare and whose voices are crucial in understanding the full impact of such conflicts.
  • The emphasis on adversaries' use of human shields and information warfare could be perceived as one-sided, potentially neglecting to address the full spectrum of tactics used by all parties in urban conflicts, including those by state actors.
  • The discussion of adversaries' tactics might inadvertently stigmatize populations associated with those adversaries, failing to distinguish between the ...

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463: Urban Warfare Perspective on Ukraine and Israel. With John Spencer

Spencer's advisory and research work in other recent urban conflicts

John Spencer, as an urban warfare specialist, has been deeply involved in studying various urban conflicts, drawing on history and his own extensive fieldwork.

Following the October 7th, 2022 attack in Israel, Spencer conducted on-the-ground research and interviews to understand the complexities of that incident

Spencer, through his unique connections, visited Gaza multiple times to study Israel’s mobilization for urban challenges, especially in response to the October 7th attacks. He watched videos presumably documenting Hamas's actions and conducted interviews with numerous individuals, including the Prime Minister and head of the military, to gain insights into the incident.

He discussed how terrorists’ intentions to publicly display their savagery differ from historical instances where such atrocities were hidden. Despite the traumatic nature of these videos, many of Hamas’s recordings are available online. Spencer underscored Israel’s decision not to release certain footage due to the respect for victims and the desire not to play into the terrorists' interests.

Furthermore, Spencer detailed the terrorists’ use of GoPro cameras during the attack as a means to showcase their actions to other Jihadists and potentially spread radicalization. He also noted their use of drugs, possibly to dehumanize themselves, as seen in other attacks like Mumbai.

Through his fieldwork, Spencer studied the complexity of the October 7th invasion, which involved a detailed military plan and saw over four thousand individuals penetrating twenty different locations with the intention of marching towards Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. He highlighted the actionable intelligence terrorists had on each village and the use of snipers at strategic points.

Considering Israel’s response, Spencer researched their three main post-attack goals. He examined the challenges of dealing with simultaneous threats, such as the attack from Hezbollah on October 8th, and described Israel's ...

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Spencer's advisory and research work in other recent urban conflicts

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • John Spencer's work delves into urban warfare tactics and strategies, focusing on how terrorist groups like Hamas use tools like GoPro cameras to showcase their actions and potentially spread radicalization. He also examines the complexity of underground tunnel networks in conflict zones like Gaza and how countries like Israel work to identify and destroy these tunnels for security reasons. Additionally, Spencer highlights the challenges faced by nations like Israel in responding to simultaneous threats in urban environments and the innovative strategies they employ, such as facial recognition technology. Through his research and advisory work, Spencer contributes to understanding the intricacies of urban warfare and aids in developing conflict resolution strategies.
  • Hamas and Hezbollah are militant groups based in the Middle East. Hamas primarily operates in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, while Hezbollah is based in Lebanon. Both groups have been involved in conflicts with Israel and are considered terrorist organizations by some countries. Hamas focuses on the Palestinian cause, while Hezbollah has a broader regional agenda aligned with Iran.
  • Facial recognition technology is a system that identifies individuals by analyzing their facial features. In conflict situations, this technology can be used for various purposes, such as identifying potential threats or tracking individuals of interest. It has raised concerns about privacy, ethics, and potential misuse, especially in sens ...

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