Ep 167: Richard Jefferson & Lagavulin
In the latest episode of "We Might Be Drunk," comedians Mark Normand and Sam Morril are joined by special guest Richard Jefferson, along with their producer, to unravel the intricacies of a comedian's journey. The episode delves into their early career choices, reflecting on the grit necessary to move from performing at open mics to establishing a dedicated fan base. Listeners are offered a glimpse into the stand-up world where personal growth often takes precedence, and the pursuit of a loyal audience takes center stage, with cities like Irvine and Philadelphia playing a significant role in their stories.
Their conversation traverses the common ground shared between the disciplines of comedy and professional basketball, discussing the parallels of confidence and dedication that define success in both arenas. Jefferson provides insights into the psychological similarities athletes and comedians face, while Normand and Morril muse over the craft of standup, drawing connections between humor and truth. The trio also expresses their respect for comedy's luminaries, highlighting the impact of legends like Richard Pryor on their artistry, and they touch upon the complexities of comedic storytelling in the context of media and journalism, exemplified by Hasan Minhaj’s experiences. Join "We Might Be Drunk" as these speakers shed light on the often unseen efforts and unwavering audacity behind the laughs.
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1-Page Summary
Early Career as a Comedian
Mark Normand's journey into comedy started at open mics, where he and Sam Morril performed and refined their acts based on audience responses. These events were characterized by a lack of mutual support, as comedians focused primarily on their personal development. While Normand's early shows did not explicitly include opening for significant comedians like Amy Schumer, his dedication implied that such milestones could have been a part of his growth. Normand and Morril's experiences during this time were crucial in developing their comedic material, as they navigated the challenges of creating and adjusting their jokes.
Building a Fan Base
Sam Morril and Mark Normand, along with Richard Jefferson, describe the process of building a fan base as similar to an athlete's progression. They share how enduring difficult early shows was fundamental to their development as comedians. Over time, this perseverance allowed them to cultivate a loyal audience. They emphasize the importance of targeting smaller cities and clubs, where diverse crowds in cities like Irvine, Philadelphia, and Boston have contributed significantly to their expanding appeal.
Crafting Standup Comedy
The trio discusses the nuances of crafting standup comedy, underscoring the connection between humor and truth. Jefferson touches on the effectiveness of exaggeration, while Morril and Normand point to the humor found in genuine experiences. Their conversation highlights how sarcasm, when skillfully employed, can enable comedians like Normand to navigate sensitive subjects with a humorous angle.
Comedy and Basketball
There are striking parallels between the journeys in comedy and professional basketball, both demanding extreme confidence and dedication. Richard Jefferson remarks that the mindset required for NBA success is almost delusional—a sentiment echoed by Sam Morril regarding comedians. They draw an analogy between the commitment needed on stage and in the training gym, illustrating the relentless labor involved in perfecting their crafts.
The Daily Show and Hasan Minhaj Controversy
Balancing the shift from serious journalism to comedic storytelling is challenging, as exemplified by Hasan Minhaj's transition from "The Daily Show" to stand-up. While in stand-up, Minhaj faced the dilemma of embellishing stories while maintaining truthfulness. Mirril and Normand critique the tactics of "gotcha" journalism, noting the impact of such media approaches on public figures like Minhaj.
Comedy Legends and Influences
A reverence for comedic greats emerges, with comedians acknowledging the influence of Richard Pryor, Jerry Seinfeld, Eddie Murphy, and others. The importance of studying comedy history is stressed, with speakers like Morril and Normand praising edgy vintage comedies such as "Married With Children" and the works of iconic comedians. These legends serve as benchmarks and learning tools in the craft of comedy.
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Clarifications
- The connection between comedy and professional basketball lies in the shared demands of extreme confidence and dedication required for success in both fields. Comedians and basketball players alike need a mindset that borders on delusional to excel in their respective crafts. The commitment to continuous improvement and relentless practice is a common thread between the worlds of comedy and basketball. Both pursuits require consistent effort and a willingness to push boundaries to achieve mastery.
- In comedy, there is often a balance between embellishing stories for entertainment value and maintaining a sense of truthfulness to connect with the audience. Comedians may exaggerate or alter details in their stories to make them funnier or more engaging, but they must be careful not to stray too far from the core truth of the narrative. This dilemma arises from the desire to entertain and provoke laughter while still being authentic and relatable to the audience. It's a delicate line that comedians navigate to create compelling and humorous performances.
- "Gotcha" journalism involves catching public figures off guard or tricking them into making controversial statements. This style of reporting often prioritizes sensationalism over context or fairness, aiming to create headlines or stir up controversy. Hasan Minhaj, transitioning from serious journalism to comedy, may have faced challenges in navigating this type of media scrutiny. The critique of "gotcha" journalism in the context of Minhaj's career highlights the complexities of balancing truthfulness and entertainment in storytelling.
Counterarguments
- While the text suggests that open mics lacked mutual support, it's possible that there was a sense of camaraderie and informal mentorship among comedians that isn't highlighted.
- The implication that Normand's dedication might have led to opening for Amy Schumer could be misleading without concrete evidence of such events.
- The comparison between building a fan base in comedy and an athlete's progression might oversimplify the unique challenges and dynamics of the entertainment industry.
- The assertion that targeting smaller cities and clubs is significantly beneficial could be contested by the idea that online platforms can also play a crucial role in expanding a comedian's appeal.
- The connection between humor and truth in crafting standup comedy might not always hold, as some successful comedy can be entirely fictional or absurd.
- The idea that sarcasm is a skillful tool to navigate sensitive subjects could be challenged by the perspective that it can sometimes alienate or offend certain audience members.
- The notion that the mindset required for success in comedy and the NBA is almost delusional might be an overgeneralization and not applicable to all successful individuals in these fields.
- The critique of "gotcha" journalism might overlook the role of investigative journalism in holding public figures accountable.
- The reverence for comedy legends and the importance of studying comedy history could be seen as less critical in an era where new forms of humor and delivery are emerging through social media and other modern platforms.
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Early Career as a Comedian
The journey to becoming a notable comedian often starts with humble beginnings and a relentless pursuit of honing one's craft. Mark Normand’s early career reflects this universal path trodden by aspiring comedians.
Doing open mics and working out material with an audience
Mark Normand reminisces about his time spent with Sam Morril, when they would frequent open mics to refine their comedy. Normand recalls an environment where comedians were often indifferent to one another's performances, indicating that the primary focus at these events was self-improvement rather than mutual support. It was at these open mics where they would rigorously test their jokes and adjust their material based on the audience's reactions.
Opening for big names like Amy Schumer
While the content did not specifically mention Normand opening for significant figures like Amy Schumer, the outline implies that as his journey progressed, opportunities to open for big names likely came as a result of t ...
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Early Career as a Comedian
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Clarifications
- Open mics are events where aspiring comedians can perform their material in front of a live audience. These shows are typically low-pressure environments where new and seasoned comedians alike can test out new jokes and refine their material. Open mics are crucial for comedians to practice their craft, receive feedback, and improve their performances. They serve as a training ground for comedians to develop their unique style and build their confidence on stage.
- At open mic events, comedians often focus on their own performances rather than actively supporting or engaging with each other. This environment can sometimes be competitive, with each comedian striving to improve their own material and delivery. Comedians use open mics as a platform to test new jokes, observe audience reactions, and refine their comedic style through trial and error. The primary goal for comedians at open mics is personal growth and honing their craft, leading to a culture where individual development takes precedence over collective camaraderie.
- When comedians perform at open mic events, they test their jokes in front of live audiences. By observing the audience's reactions, comedians can gauge what jokes work well and which ones need improvement. This process of trial and error helps comedians refine their material by adjusting jokes based on how the audience responds. Continuous refinement through audience feedback is crucial for comed ...
Counterarguments
- While open mics are a common starting point, not all comedians prioritize them; some may find alternative routes to refine their comedy, such as through online platforms or different forms of media.
- The focus on self-improvement at open mics does not preclude the possibility of camaraderie and mutual support among comedians, which can also be an important aspect of the comedy community.
- Testing and adjusting material based on audience reactions is important, but it's not the only method; some comedians may rely more on their intuition or feedback from peers rather than audience reactions alone.
- Opening for big names like Amy Schumer is a significant opportunity, but it's not the only marker of success or dedication; some comedians may achieve recognition through other means, such as viral content or critical acclaim for unique styles.
- While open mics are foundational for many, they are not the sole avenue fo ...
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Building a Fan Base
Sam Morril and Mark Normand, along with Richard Jefferson, discuss the trials and triumphs of building a fan base through the lens of stand-up comedy, likening it to the growth of athletes over time.
Enduring bad early shows for years
Morril and Normand open up about the rough path to success, detailing how they had to endure subpar performances at the beginning of their careers. They talk about working through these early experiences and using them as stepping stones to develop their comedic skills.
Growing the fanbase slowly over time
These early hardships worked to their advantage, as Morril and Normand indicate. By pushing through the tough early shows and refining their craft, they were able to gradually build a loyal following. Jefferson mirrors this sentiment by comparing the evolution of a fan base to watching athletes develop their skills over the years.
Playing smaller cities and clubs
Part of their strategy for growing their fan bas ...
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Building a Fan Base
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Clarifications
- Sam Morril and Mark Normand faced challenges in their early careers, including enduring subpar performances and rough paths to success. They had to work through these experiences to develop their comedic skills and build a loyal following over time. These early hardships served as stepping stones for them to refine their craft and grow their fan base gradually. Playing in smaller cities and clubs was part of their strategy to connect with diverse audiences and expand their appeal.
- In the context of building a fan base, likening stand-up comedians' growth to that of athletes over time emphasizes the gradual development and honing of skills through practice and experience. Just as athletes train and improve their performance over years, comedians refine their craft through repeated performances and learning from early setbacks. Both endeavors require persistence, resilience, and a continuous effort to connect with their audience, whether it's through laughter or sportsmanship. This comparison underscores the long-term commitment and dedication needed to succeed in these competitive fields.
- Playing in smaller cities like Irvine, Philadelphia, and Boston is significant for comedians because these cities have diverse audiences, including both smart and blue-collar individuals. Performing in such locations allows comedians to refine their material to appeal to a broader range of people, helping them develop a more versatile and relatable comedic style. Additionally, these cities are known for their vibrant comedy scenes, providing comedians with opportunities to test and improve their material in front of e ...
Counterarguments
- While enduring bad early shows can be a stepping stone for some comedians, it's not the only path to success; some comedians may find success through other means such as social media or viral content.
- The slow growth of a fan base is one strategy, but rapid growth can also occur through a breakout performance, television appearance, or online virality.
- Playing in smaller cities and clubs is a common approach, but it might ...
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Crafting Standup Comedy
Richard Jefferson, Mark Normand, and Sam Morril delve into the intricacies of crafting standup comedy, discussing how humor often stems from truth, and how comedians can use exaggeration and sarcasm to enhance their stories.
Exaggerating stories for comedic effect
Richard Jefferson speaks about the importance of exaggeration in comedy, implying that spicing up what's happening outside your window can add a humorous twist to a story. Similarly, Mark Normand suggests that comedy often revolves around the notion of being miserable and losing. They indicate that by exaggerating one's failures and losses, a comedian can turn potentially dreary subjects into the source of humor.
Basing comedy on mostly truthful experiences
Sam Morril and Richard Jefferson find common ground in the belief that there's an inherent humor in truth. They suggest that part of the human experience, including the aspect of losing, is naturally funny. Mark Normand notes that while the premise may be serious—like a joke about Rosa Parks—it’s the framing as a joke that gives it a comedic edge. A well-delivered story based on true events can resonate with audiences, ...
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Crafting Standup Comedy
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Clarifications
- In stand-up comedy, sarcasm is used as a tool to explore sensitive or serious topics with a comedic twist. Comedians employ ironic delivery to convey their true thoughts in a humorous manner. Sarcasm adds layers of meaning to the jokes and helps engage the audience by making them think about the underlyin ...
Counterarguments
- Exaggeration, while useful, can sometimes lead to misrepresentation or perpetuate stereotypes, which may not always be humorous or appropriate.
- Not all comedy revolves around misery and losing; some comedians focus on observational humor, wordplay, or absurdity without emphasizing negative experiences.
- Exaggerating failures and losses might not resonate with all audiences, especially if it seems to trivialize genuine hardship or if the audience cannot relate to the experiences being exaggerated.
- The idea that truth is inherently humorous can be subjective; some truths may not be funny to certain individuals or cultures, and humor can be highly context-dependent.
- Framing serious topics as jokes can be risky and may not always be received as comedic, particularly if the audience feels that the subject matter should be treated with more respect or sensitivity.
- Stories based on true events might resonate due to relatability, but they can also alienate audiences who do not share the same experiences or perspectives.
- Sarcasm, while powerful, can sometimes be misunderstood or come across as insincere ...
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Comedy and Basketball
Richard Jefferson and Sam Morril draw thought-provoking parallels between the worlds of professional basketball and comedy, underscoring the immense dedication and unique confidence required to succeed in these fields.
Making it in pro basketball and comedy requires confidence bordering on delusion
Richard Jefferson shares his perspective on the mindset necessary to thrive as an NBA player, stating boldly that NBA players are "all crazy" and "all psychotic." To stand among the mere 450 players worldwide requires not just physical talent but also an extra edge of psychological uniqueness, something Jefferson describes as bordering on psychotic. This high level of confidence, sometimes even tipping over into arrogance or irrationality, is essential from a young age for those who aspire to join the NBA ranks.
Sam Morril chimes in, relating this necessity for an outsize confidence to the world of comedy. Comedians, Morril suggests, share this delusional confidence that makes them believe they deserve to be paid for delivering jokes to strangers in bars. Like aspiring NBA stars, emerging comedians need to have a strong belief in themselves, often against all rational expectations of success.
The road is like the gym - putting in the hard work perfecting the craft
The conversation touches upon the work ethic required in both domains, with Mark Normand making an analogy to the process of perfecting a comedy bit in front of a live audience to working out in a gym. Just as athletes spend countless hours training and honing their physical abilities, comedians must refine their craft on stage, through trial and error in front of an audience.
Athletes and comedians have some similarities like lifelong dedication and psyches that lean toward chaos
Jefferson and Morril discuss the surprising ps ...
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Comedy and Basketball
Additional Materials
Clarifications
- The parallels drawn between professional basketball and comedy highlight the shared requirement of immense confidence and dedication for success in both fields. Both NBA players and comedians need a level of self-belief that can be seen as bordering on delusion to excel in their respective careers. The work ethic needed in basketball to hone physical abilities mirrors the process comedians go through to refine their craft on stage. Additionally, the psychological complexities and chaotic psyches observed in both athletes and comedians underscore the intense lifelong dedication required to master their crafts.
- The comparison between the mindset required for NBA players and comedians revolves around the need for an extraordinary level of confidence that borders on delusion. Both professions demand a strong belief in oneself despite facing challenges and uncertainties. This confidence is essential for NBA players to compete at the highest level and for comedians to succeed in delivering jokes to audiences. The parallel lies in the shared requirement for unwavering self-assurance in pursuing success in their respective fields.
- The analogy between perfecting a comedy bit and working out in a gym highlights the iterative process of improvement in both fields. Just as athletes train their bodies through repetitive exercises to enhance their physical skills, comedians refine their jokes and delivery through repeated performances to enhance their comedic abilities. Both endeavors re ...
Counterarguments
- While confidence is important, suggesting it borders on delusion may overlook the role of humility, self-awareness, and the ability to learn from failure, which are also crucial for success in any field.
- The idea that a relentless work ethic and lifelong dedication are required could be challenged by the notion of work-life balance and the importance of rest and recovery for long-term success and mental health.
- The comparison of the road to success to hard work in the gym might be too narrow, as it doesn't account for the role of creativity, adaptability, and the ability to connect with an audience, which are also ...
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The Daily Show and Hasan Minhaj Controversy
The switch from serious journalism to comedic storytelling poses unique challenges, especially for figures like Hasan Minhaj, who transition from fact-driven to narrative-centric formats.
Difficulty switching between serious journalism and comedic interpretations
Hasan Minhaj's move from "The Daily Show," where presenting facts and supplementing with humor was the norm, to incorporating stories laced with humor in his stand-up routines is acknowledged as difficult. The distinction between the two can be complex, particularly when it involves translating dry facts into entertaining content without losing the truth.
Reporting facts versus telling embellished stories
In stand-up comedy, Minhaj and others often face the temptation to embellish stories to land punchlines. However, in doing so, there is a delicate balance between maintaining the truth and manufacturing stories solely for comedic effect. It is suggested that Minhaj may have crossed this line, by potentially creating false premises to elicit sympathy from the audience.
Reaction to gacha journalism tactics
The conversation shifts to critique the tactics used by journalists. Comedian Sam Morril addresses issues with "gotcha" journali ...
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The Daily Show and Hasan Minhaj Controversy
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Clarifications
- "Gacha journalism" is a term that criticizes journalists for using deceptive or manipulative tactics to elicit specific responses or information from their subjects. It implies a resemblance to the concept of "gacha" in gaming, where players spend money on randomized rewards. In journalism, this can involve tactics like misleading questions, misrepresentation of facts, or setting traps to catch subjects off guard. The term suggests a negative view of such practices, highlighting ethical concerns about the methods used to gather information or create stories.
- Transitioning from serious journalism to comedic storytelling involves navigating a shift in tone and approach from presenting factual information to crafting narratives infused with humor. This transition can be challenging as it requires balancing entertainment value wi ...
Counterarguments
- Hasan Minhaj's experience in serious journalism may actually enhance his comedic storytelling by providing a depth of understanding and insight that can enrich his humor.
- The blending of facts with humor is a recognized art form, and comedians like Minhaj are expected to navigate this space creatively while still respecting the truth.
- Embellishment in storytelling is a common literary device, and when used responsibly, it does not necessarily compromise the integrity of the underlying message.
- The use of hyperbole or fictional premises in comedy is often understood by audiences as part of the genre and not intended to be deceptive.
- Criticism of "gotcha" journalism may overlook the role of investigative journalism in holding public figures accountable and encouraging transparency.
- The scrutiny resulting from Minhaj's request for a feature in The New Yorker could be seen as a natural outcome of increased visibility and not solely the result of journalistic tactics.
- Negative portrayals in media profiles can sometimes stem from the subj ...
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Comedy Legends and Influences
Discussions with comedians Richard Jefferson, Sam Morril, and Mark Normand unveil a deep respect for the comedic greats and the influential world of edgy, vintage comedy.
Greats like Richard Pryor, Jerry Seinfeld, Eddie Murphy
Sam Morril places comedy icon George Carlin on the comedians' Mount Rushmore, and Richard Jefferson and Morril discuss Bill Hicks and his significant impact on comedy. Jefferson also mentions Jerry Seinfeld and Robert Klein, crediting them for their influential observational comedy style. Other notable mentions include Rodney Dangerfield, Roseanne Barr, and the works of Robert Townsend and Robert Schimmel, all pillars of the vintage comedy scene.
Learning comedy history by studying legends
The speakers emphasize the importance of knowing comedy history and showing respect for earlier generations of comedians. They cite Richard Pryor, Louie CK, and Roy Wood as essential parts of the learning curve for understanding the breadth and depth of comedic expression. Sam Morril notes David Teller’s commentary on Bill Hicks performing edgy material in challenging locations, highlighting the adversity comedians face. Jefferson also discusses Marc Maron's history with Sam Kinison, adding to the narrative about perceiving the background of comedic legends.
Loving edgy vintage comedy like Married With Children
Sam Morril and Mark Normand speak fondly of Bill Burr's memorable "Philly rant," likening it to ...
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Comedy Legends and Influences
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Clarifications
- The comedians' Mount Rushmore reference is a metaphorical term used to describe the four most significant figures in a particular field. In this context, Sam Morril places George Carlin on the comedians' Mount Rushmore, indicating Carlin's immense influence and impact on comedy. It symbolizes the highest honor and recognition for the top performers in the comedy world. The comparison draws a parallel between the iconic Mount Rushmore monument, featuring the faces of four U.S. presidents, and the top comedians who have left a lasting legacy in the industry.
- Bill Hicks was a groundbreaking comedian known for his sharp social commentary and fearless approach to controversial topics. He challenged societal norms and authority figures through his provocative and thought-provoking humor. Hicks' legacy lies in his ability to blend comedy with philosophical insights, influencing a generation of comedians with his unique style and uncompromising honesty. His impact on comedy continues to be felt, as he remains a revered figure in the stand-up comedy world.
- Bill Hicks was known for his provocative and controversial comedy style, often tackling sensitive topics. Performing in challenging locations means he would present his edgy material in venues or environments where the audience might not be receptive or where the content could be considered risky or confrontational. This aspect of his performances added to his reputation as a fearless and boundary-pushing comedian, unafraid to address taboo subjects and push the limits of traditional comedy.
- Louis C.K.'s shows "Lucky Louie" and "Louie" are praised for capturing the essence of New York through their storytelling and settings. The portrayal of New York's essence in these shows often includes elements like the city's diverse neighborhoods, the struggles and humor of everyday life, and the unique character interactions that are emblematic of the city. Louis C.K.'s depiction of New York reflects a blend of realism and dark humor, showcasi ...
Counterarguments
- While the comedians mentioned are undoubtedly influential, some critics argue that the focus on these particular legends can overshadow equally talented but less recognized comedians, especially women and people of color who have historically been marginalized in the industry.
- The emphasis on studying comedy history is important, but there is also a need to innovate and not just emulate past styles, ensuring that comedy continues to evolve and resonate with contemporary audiences.
- The celebration of edgy and politically incorrect humor can be seen as problematic, as it sometimes perpetuates stereotypes or offends marginalized groups, and there is a growing movement within comedy to be more inclusive and sensitive.
- Praising Louis C.K. can be controversial due to his admitted sexual misconduct, and some may argue that continuing to celebrate his work without acknowledging his actions contributes to a culture of ignoring accountability in the entertainment industry.
- The admiration for "Mar ...
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