Podcasts > The Tim Ferriss Show > #810: Terry Real — The Therapist Who Breaks All The Rules

#810: Terry Real — The Therapist Who Breaks All The Rules

By Tim Ferriss: Bestselling Author, Human Guinea Pig

In this episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, therapist Terry Real discusses his approach to couples therapy, which differs from traditional methods. He explains how he takes direct positions in therapy sessions rather than remaining neutral, and shares his concept of "relational mindfulness" - teaching couples to stay present during difficult conversations. Real also explores how emotional suppression, particularly in men, affects relationships and describes the natural cycles of harmony and disruption in partnerships.

The conversation examines how traditional masculinity can create barriers to intimacy, with Real explaining how boys are conditioned toward emotional disconnection. He outlines his process for addressing relationship issues, which involves tackling addiction first, then personality issues, and finally childhood trauma. Throughout the discussion, Real emphasizes the importance of developing specific relationship skills and maintaining sustainable emotional connections over seeking immediate gratification.

#810: Terry Real — The Therapist Who Breaks All The Rules

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#810: Terry Real — The Therapist Who Breaks All The Rules

1-Page Summary

Terry Real's Unique Therapeutic Approach and Philosophy

Terry Real shares insights from his 20 years of experience working with couples, presenting a distinctive therapy style that challenges traditional approaches. Rather than maintaining neutrality, Real takes direct positions in therapy sessions, often supporting one partner to leverage change. He emphasizes that relationship progress comes through developing specific skills rather than just gaining insight.

Real introduces the concept of "relational mindfulness," teaching clients to stay present during difficult conversations and avoid reactive responses. He views relationships as interconnected "biospheres," rejecting individualistic approaches in favor of recognizing mutual dependence and teamwork.

Importance of Vulnerability, Intimacy, and Connection

Tim Ferriss and Terry Real explore how emotional suppression, particularly in men, creates relationship challenges. Real describes relationships as having a natural rhythm of harmony, disruption, and repair, emphasizing that the "dark phase" of disappointment is normal and manageable with proper guidance.

Real teaches clients to "remember love" during conflicts and prioritize understanding over being right. He notes that many successful individuals struggle with emotional fulfillment despite their achievements, emphasizing the importance of sustainable emotional connections over immediate gratification.

Terry Real discusses how traditional masculinity creates barriers to intimacy in relationships. He explains that boys are conditioned toward emotional disconnection and independence, which conflicts with modern relationship demands. While acknowledging that many men feel vilified in the era of women's empowerment, Real advocates for a shift from power over others to power with others.

Real shares his experience of breaking cycles of anger and depression with his own sons, teaching them to access both "masculine" and "feminine" qualities. He emphasizes the importance of being adaptable – knowing when to show sensitivity and when to protect oneself.

Addressing Trauma, Depression, and Maladaptive Coping

Real identifies "covert depression" in men, often manifesting as addictions, anger, or withdrawal. He emphasizes addressing addiction before tackling relationship issues, as sobriety often reveals underlying depression and trauma that require attention.

His therapeutic approach involves a sequential process: first addressing addiction, then personality issues, and finally childhood trauma. Throughout this process, Real confronts counterproductive behaviors while providing guidance and support, aiming for lasting transformation rather than temporary relief.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Real's direct positioning in therapy could potentially create an imbalance in the therapeutic relationship, making one partner feel less supported or understood.
  • While relational mindfulness is beneficial, some critics argue that focusing too much on the present might overlook the importance of understanding past patterns and how they influence current behaviors.
  • The concept of relationships as biospheres might oversimplify the complexity of individual experiences and psychological issues that also need to be addressed.
  • The idea that emotional suppression leads to relationship challenges could be seen as an oversimplification, as not all individuals who suppress emotions experience relationship difficulties.
  • The rhythm of harmony, disruption, and repair in relationships might not apply to all relationships, and some might experience different patterns or lack a clear cycle.
  • The emphasis on remembering love and prioritizing understanding could be challenging in situations where there are significant power imbalances or abusive dynamics.
  • The importance placed on sustainable emotional connections might not resonate with individuals who prioritize autonomy or have different definitions of fulfillment.
  • The critique of traditional masculinity might not account for the diverse experiences of men and the ways in which masculinity can be expressed healthily.
  • The encouragement for men to shift from power over to power with others might not address the systemic and cultural factors that contribute to power dynamics.
  • Teaching boys to access both masculine and feminine qualities could be criticized for reinforcing gender binaries rather than promoting a more fluid understanding of gender.
  • The sequential approach to therapy might not be suitable for all clients, as some may require a more integrated approach that addresses multiple issues concurrently.
  • The focus on lasting transformation over temporary relief might not acknowledge the value of short-term coping strategies for some individuals in crisis.

Actionables

  • You can practice relational mindfulness by setting a daily reminder to check in with your emotions and thoughts during interactions with others. This could involve taking a few moments every hour to assess how you're feeling and why, especially during conversations that might be challenging or emotionally charged. For example, if you're about to discuss a sensitive topic with a partner, take a deep breath and consciously bring yourself to the present moment, acknowledging your feelings without judgment.
  • Develop a personal ritual to symbolize the rhythm of harmony, disruption, and repair in relationships. This could be as simple as having a special object that you hold or look at to remind yourself that disruptions are natural and repair is possible. For instance, you might choose a small stone to represent solidity and resilience, holding it in your hand as a physical reminder to work towards harmony after a disagreement.
  • Create a "Remembering Love" journal where you write down positive memories and qualities of your loved ones, to be revisited during times of conflict. This can help prioritize understanding and compassion over the need to be right. When you find yourself in an argument, take a moment to read through your journal entries to remind yourself of the love and connection you share, which can help shift the focus from winning the argument to finding common ground.

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#810: Terry Real — The Therapist Who Breaks All The Rules

Terry Real's Unique Therapeutic Approach and Philosophy

Terry Real shares his 20 years of experience working with couples on the brink of separation, offering a unique therapy style that emphasizes directive interventions, relational skills, and viewing relationships as complex systems.

Terry Real Adopts a Directive Approach in Therapy Over Neutrality

Terry Real Advocates Giving Direct Feedback, Even if Difficult to Hear

Terry Real supports a direct, interactive therapeutic approach, contrasting with neutral therapist tactics. He avoids acting as a "neutral mirror" where therapists refrain from taking positions. Instead, Real provides opinions and feedback, even if it is challenging for the client to hear. In one scenario, he celebrated a patient's representation of suffering, which enabled the patient to choose to make a change.

Terry Real Views Relationship Issues as One-sided, Often Taking a Stand For one Partner

Real is decisive and takes a stand in relationships, sometimes siding with one partner. He encourages the other partner to find a therapist who will do the same. By bolstering one partner, Real leverages change in clients and empowers them. He confronts the client with the consequences of not changing and employs "micro coaching" tactics, offering specific guidance, such as animating one's face to express emotions.

Terry Real Prioritizes Relational and Communication Skills Over Insight

Terry Real: Skills Drive Progress, Beyond Understanding Issues

Terry Real emphasizes the primacy of skills for driving progress within relationships. He believes in relational empowerment and teamwork. Real introduces "relational mindfulness," helping clients remain present and avoid knee-jerk reactions. He teaches that learning new relational skills and behaviors is fundamental to improving relationships, more so than simply understanding the issues.

Terry Real's "Relational Mindfulness" Aids Clients in Tough Talks

This core skill, "relational mindfulness," focuses on how clients can thrive in the relationship, rather than on individual desires. Real encourages partners to communicate directly and understand each other's subjective experiences through compassionate curiosity, which repairs and strengthens the relational dynamic. He emphasizes staying on topic without devolving to character judgments during arguments.

Terry Real Sees Relationships As an Interconnected "Ecosystem"

Terry Real Views Relationships as Complex, Interdependent Systems, Not Controllable by Individuals

Relationships, according to Real, function as interconn ...

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Terry Real's Unique Therapeutic Approach and Philosophy

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • While direct feedback can be beneficial, it may not be suitable for all clients, especially those with a history of trauma or sensitivity to criticism, who might benefit from a more gentle approach.
  • Taking a stand for one partner in therapy could potentially create an imbalance in the therapeutic relationship, making the other partner feel unsupported or marginalized.
  • Emphasizing skills over insight might overlook the importance of understanding the underlying psychological issues that contribute to relationship problems.
  • Relational mindfulness, while valuable, may not address individual psychological needs or personal growth that can be crucial for the health of the relationship.
  • Viewing relationships as complex systems is important, but i ...

Actionables

  • You can practice honest communication by setting up a "feedback dinner" with friends or family where everyone agrees to share one piece of constructive feedback with each other. This creates a safe space to practice giving and receiving direct feedback, and it can be framed as a way to help each other grow.
  • Start a "relationship journal" where you reflect on interactions with your partner, noting moments where you could have sided with them to support positive change. This self-reflection can help you become more aware of how you contribute to the dynamics of your relationship and identify opportunities to empower your partner.
  • Incorporate "mindful moments" into your daily r ...

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#810: Terry Real — The Therapist Who Breaks All The Rules

Importance of Vulnerability, Intimacy, and Connection in Relationships

Tim Ferriss and Terry Real discuss the challenges and importance of vulnerability, intimacy, and emotional connection in relationships.

Traditional Masculinity Stifles Male Vulnerability and Emotional Expression

Men Socialized to Suppress Emotions and Disconnect Feelings

Ferriss shares his personal experience of having to turn off his emotions during childhood to cope with abuse. This type of emotional suppression, linked to traditional masculinity, causes problems in adult relationships, particularly an unmet craving for emotional intimacy.

Terry Real speaks about the rhythm of relationships, which includes harmony, disruption, and repair. He emphasizes the normalcy of the "dark phase" in relationships—a time of disappointment and so-called 'marital hatred.' He asserts that couples can work through this phase with proper guidance, teaching them to move smoothly from disruption to repair.

Problems in Adult Relationships: Craving Emotional Intimacy

Ferriss describes how the ending of a significant relationship was a trigger for him to reactivate his sensitivity. Meanwhile, Real talks about behaviors of dominance and fixation, which both necessitate a level of vulnerability as a step towards correcting them and achieving intimacy.

Achieving Intimacy Requires Vulnerability and Emotional Risk

Terry Real Guides Clients to "Remember Love" and Stay Connected During Conflict

Terry Real coaches his clients to focus on the affection they have for each other even during conflict, as a way to 'remember love'. He emphasizes this as a core part of fostering intimacy and connection, rather than getting stuck in a repetitive cycle of disruption without repair.

Repairing Relationships Means Prioritizing Understanding Over Being "Right."

Real argues for shifting away from objective arguments about who's right and instead becoming relational, operating as a team. This involves reframing an argumentative exchange into expressing one's own fears and needs, which leads to quicker resolution and prioritizes emotional connection over winning.

Cultivating Relational Joy, Not Just Gratification, Is Key to Fulfillment

Successful Men Terry Knows Lack Deeper Relational Fulfillment

Real ...

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Importance of Vulnerability, Intimacy, and Connection in Relationships

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • While vulnerability is important, some argue that there must be a balance, as excessive vulnerability can sometimes lead to emotional dependency or a lack of personal boundaries.
  • The idea that traditional masculinity always stifles emotional expression is contested; some believe that traditional masculine qualities can coexist with emotional openness and vulnerability.
  • The concept of a "dark phase" being normal in relationships might be challenged by those who believe that consistent negativity is a sign of incompatibility rather than a phase that can be worked through.
  • The emphasis on emotional connection over being "right" might be criticized for potentially downplaying the importance of truth and accountability in a relationship.
  • The notion that successful individuals often lack relational fulfillment could be seen as a generalization that doesn't account for those who find balance and satisfaction in both personal and professiona ...

Actionables

  • You can create a "vulnerability jar" where you and your partner write down moments when you felt vulnerable and share them during a weekly connection time. This practice encourages both partners to recognize and express their vulnerabilities in a safe space, fostering emotional intimacy. For example, you might write, "I felt vulnerable when I shared my writing with you," and your partner might respond with support or share a similar experience.
  • Start a "harmony-disruption-repair" diary to track the natural rhythm of your relationship. Note down instances of harmony, disruptions, and how you both worked towards repair. This can help you identify patterns and become more proactive in navigating through the 'dark phase.' For instance, if you notice that financial stress often leads to disruption, you might decide to have regular budget discussions to prevent misunderstandings.
  • Initiate a "teamwork challenge" with your partner where for on ...

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#810: Terry Real — The Therapist Who Breaks All The Rules

Navigating Gender Roles and Masculinity Challenges For Men

Terry Real discusses how traditional views on masculinity create emotional barriers in relationships, challenge contemporary intimacy expectations, and hinder the ability of men to relate intimately and effectively.

Masculinity Clashes With Emotional Intimacy in Relationships

Boys Learn Invulnerability, Emotional Disconnection, Independence, Undermining Partnership Ability

Terry Real explains that the disconnect boys learn from a young age, focusing on invulnerability, independence, and emotional disconnection, affects their ability to be/partner intimately in relationships. Despite boys generally having more feelings than girls, patriarchal culture teaches them to suppress these emotions. The conditioning they receive, to be invulnerable and self-sufficient, is often in direct conflict with what is required to be an adequate husband by today's standards.

Women's Empowerment Challenges Many Men

Men Feel Accused Of Being "Bad"

In light of feminism and women’s empowerment, men often feel vilified, according to Real. He clarifies that the issue lies not with men's power, but with their dominance. Real states that there is a cultural backlash where men feel accused and tired of being portrayed negatively. He advocates for power with others rather than power over them, stressing this as a necessary shift in understanding and approach.

Terry: Men Should Meet New Intimacy Demands

Terry Real calls for men to adapt and rise to the challenge of new intimacy demands. He suggests that being more relationally skilled serves men’s own interests and that intimacy is essential for human contentment. Moving away from one-up positions and meeting these demands would not only be beneficial for relationships but would also lead to greater happiness for men themselves.

Raising Boys to Be Emotionally Literate and Adaptable

Terry and His Wife Modeled a Different Masculinity for Their Sons

Real shares his personal journey of breaking a cycle of anger an ...

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Navigating Gender Roles and Masculinity Challenges For Men

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Some argue that traditional masculinity also includes positive traits such as responsibility, courage, and leadership, which can be beneficial in relationships and society.
  • The concept of emotional invulnerability can be seen as a form of resilience and strength, which are qualities that can contribute positively to partnerships and personal well-being.
  • The feeling of being accused in the wake of feminism may be a misinterpretation or oversensitivity to the critique of systemic issues rather than personal attacks on individual men.
  • The idea that men have more feelings than girls is a generalization and may not hold true for every individual, as emotional experience is highly subjective and variable.
  • The emphasis on teaching boys to access both "masculine" and "feminine" qualities might be criticized for reinforcing a binary view of gender traits instead of recognizing a spectrum of human characteristics.
  • Some may argue that the concept of "power with others" versus "power over others" oversimplifies complex social dynamics and power structures in relationships and society.
  • The notion that men need to adapt to new intimacy demands could be seen as placing the onus on men to change, without equally emphasizing the need for societal change to accommodate diverse expressions of masculinity.
  • The idea of modeling a different masculinity could be challe ...

Actionables

  • Start a personal journal to explore and express a full range of emotions, using prompts that encourage reflection on both traditionally masculine and feminine traits. This practice can help break down barriers to emotional expression by providing a private, non-judgmental space. For example, write about a time you showed compassion or a moment when you stood firm in a difficult situation, analyzing how these responses impacted your relationships.
  • Create a buddy system with a friend where you hold each other accountable for practicing vulnerability in everyday situations. Set weekly challenges that involve showing emotions or asking for help in contexts where you might usually refrain from doing so. After each challenge, discuss what you learned and how it felt, which can help normalize these behaviors and make them more comfortable over time.
  • Volunteer for communi ...

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#810: Terry Real — The Therapist Who Breaks All The Rules

Addressing Underlying Trauma, Depression, and Maladaptive Coping Mechanisms

Terry Real discusses how many men exhibit "covert depression," which can manifest as addictions, anger, philandering, or withdrawal, and emphasizes the importance of addressing trauma for sustainable change.

Many Men Face "Covert Depression" Shown by Addictions, Anger, or Withdrawal

Terry Real explains that symptoms like self-medication, rage, and extreme withdrawal in men may point to an underlying covert depression. This condition often has its roots in societal norms and boyhood socialization under patriarchy, where emotions are suppressed and autonomy is over-emphasized.

Men's Depression Roots in Boyhood Socialization Under Patriarchy

Real notes that men's depression is often due to the "normal boyhood trauma under patriarchy." This early socialization includes teaching boys to deny vulnerability, disconnect from their feelings, and value autonomy—leading to emotional disconnection. The socialization under patriarchy can contribute to a sense of being one-up or one-down, leading to covert depression.

Addiction and Compulsive Behaviors Self-Medicate Unprocessed Pain

Terry Real emphasizes the importance of becoming sober before addressing relational issues. He notes that addiction and compulsive behaviors are often attempts to self-medicate unprocessed emotional pain.

Terry Emphasizes Getting Sober Before Addressing Relational Issues

Real insists on addressing addictions first, as sobriety often reveals underlying depression and trauma. He mentions that if someone does not want to work on their addiction, it might be healthier to break up rather than stay in the relationship and try to manage the addiction, as people do in Al-Anon.

Removing Defenses Reveals Underlying Depression and Trauma

By removing grandiosity and defenses, underlying trauma is revealed, necessitating treatment. Real describes that when someone gets sober, it often unveils a depression similar to psychiatric depression, which requires attention and treatment.

Terry's Approach: Tackling Defenses, Managing Depression, Healing Trauma

Terry Real’s approach involves a sequenced focus on addiction, then perso ...

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Addressing Underlying Trauma, Depression, and Maladaptive Coping Mechanisms

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • While Terry Real's focus on covert depression in men is valuable, it's important to recognize that depression can manifest differently across individuals, regardless of gender, and a one-size-fits-all approach may not be appropriate for everyone.
  • The assertion that men's depression is rooted in societal norms and boyhood socialization under patriarchy may be too narrow, as it does not account for biological, genetic, and other environmental factors that can contribute to depression.
  • The emphasis on getting sober before addressing relational issues might not be the best approach for everyone, as some individuals may benefit from an integrated treatment plan that addresses both simultaneously.
  • The idea that removing defenses will reveal underlying trauma assumes that all individuals use defenses in the same way, which may not be the case. Some people may not have significant underlying trauma, or their defenses may serve a protective function that requires careful handling.
  • Real's sequenced approach to treatment, while comprehensive, may not be suitable for all clients. Some may require a more flexible and personalized approach that adapts to their unique needs and circumstances.
  • The model for lasting change proposed by Terry Real might be challenged by thos ...

Actionables

  • You can start a reflective journal to explore your emotional landscape, noting any behaviors that might be masking deeper feelings. By writing down instances when you feel the urge to withdraw, show anger, or engage in addictive behaviors, you can begin to identify patterns and triggers. This self-awareness can be the first step in recognizing covert depression and the need for professional help.
  • Create a support group with friends where you discuss emotions openly, challenging societal norms that discourage emotional expression in men. This can be a safe space to share experiences and feelings that you might not typically express, helping to break down the stigma around male vulnerability and providing a collective understanding that can lead to individual and group healing.
  • Develop a personal "emotional first aid kit" that includes healthy co ...

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