Podcasts > The Tim Ferriss Show > #782: Legendary Inventor Danny Hillis (Plus Kevin Kelly) — Unorthodox Lessons from 400+ Patents, Solving the Impossible, Real Al vs. “AI”, Hiring Richard Feynman, Working with Steve Jobs, Creating Parallel Computing, and Much More

#782: Legendary Inventor Danny Hillis (Plus Kevin Kelly) — Unorthodox Lessons from 400+ Patents, Solving the Impossible, Real Al vs. “AI”, Hiring Richard Feynman, Working with Steve Jobs, Creating Parallel Computing, and Much More

By Tim Ferriss: Bestselling Author, Human Guinea Pig

In this episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, Danny Hillis shares his journey from pioneering parallel computing to creating iconic long-term projects like the 10,000-Year Clock funded by Jeff Bezos. Along with Kevin Kelly, Hillis explores unconventional ideas around intelligence, consciousness, and humanity's trajectory.

Hillis discusses his mindset shift at Disney emphasizing user experience over purely solving technical challenges. He also expresses skepticism about perceiving reality strictly through cause and effect, suggesting more advanced intelligences may operate differently. The conversation contemplates defining traits of intelligence beyond consciousness and ponders AI's potential revelations about alternative forms of thinking.

#782: Legendary Inventor Danny Hillis (Plus Kevin Kelly) — Unorthodox Lessons from 400+ Patents, Solving the Impossible, Real Al vs. “AI”, Hiring Richard Feynman, Working with Steve Jobs, Creating Parallel Computing, and Much More

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#782: Legendary Inventor Danny Hillis (Plus Kevin Kelly) — Unorthodox Lessons from 400+ Patents, Solving the Impossible, Real Al vs. “AI”, Hiring Richard Feynman, Working with Steve Jobs, Creating Parallel Computing, and Much More

1-Page Summary

Danny Hillis' Background

While completing his PhD at MIT, Danny Hillis realized the need for powerful parallel computers to advance AI. Against advice, he founded Thinking Machines to build large parallel computers. He drew inspiration from unconventional thinkers around him. Hillis pioneered the first multi-core chips and showed Amdahl's law on parallel computing inefficiency was wrong.

Thinking Machines became the fastest computer for years, but ultimately failed as a business due to management mistakes like inadequate cash reserves and legislation influenced by competitors, Hillis admits.

Hillis' Time at Disney

As a Disney Fellow, Hillis gained a new "artistic" mindset prioritizing user experience and storytelling over just engineering problems. He adopted techniques like building emotional connections into product design, like his 10,000-year clock updating only when a visitor winds it.

Hillis realized technical problems are solvable, but integrating the user's core relationship with the product is paramount, as he saw with the early Macintosh team.

The 10,000-Year Clock

Hillis' 10,000-year clock, funded by Jeff Bezos, aims to inspire long-term thinking about humanity's future. Beyond its feat of engineering, Hillis sees the clock as a cultural symbol providing an iconic image of human resilience and potential to last millennia.

The clock exists as a real, physical manifestation of a narrative about our species' trajectory. Hillis hopes it prompts a shift in perspective from the immediate to humanity's extended story.

Philosophical Perspectives

Hillis is skeptical of perceiving reality strictly through cause and effect, which he considers a useful but limited "trick" employed by human cognition. He suggests more advanced intelligences may operate without relying on this paradigm.

Hillis also downplays consciousness as central to intelligence, speculating it's an "evolutionary hack" and proposing AI could reveal vastly different forms of intelligence.

Kevin Kelly adds that human intelligence represents just one point on a spectrum—AI will help us conceptualize new, unfathomable modes of thinking and intelligence.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Hillis' assertion that Amdahl's law on parallel computing inefficiency is wrong may be contested by some who argue that the law still holds in certain contexts or that Hillis' work represents an exception rather than a refutation.
  • The failure of Thinking Machines as a business could be seen not just as a result of management mistakes and external legislation, but also potentially due to the market's readiness for such advanced technology or other competitive factors.
  • While Hillis gained an artistic mindset at Disney, some might argue that the balance between user experience and technical excellence is industry-specific, and not all products would benefit from the same approach.
  • The idea that technical problems are always solvable might be overly optimistic, as some technical challenges could be insurmountable due to physical limitations or resource constraints.
  • The 10,000-year clock's goal to inspire long-term thinking could be criticized for its practicality or effectiveness, as the direct impact on humanity's future thinking patterns is difficult to measure or prove.
  • Some may argue that the clock, while a symbol of human resilience, could also be seen as an indulgent project that diverts resources from more immediate and pressing human concerns.
  • Hillis' skepticism about cause and effect as a cognitive paradigm might be challenged by those who see it as a fundamental aspect of understanding the universe, not just a "trick" of human cognition.
  • The downplaying of consciousness in intelligence could be contested by philosophers and cognitive scientists who argue that consciousness is a crucial component of what it means to be intelligent.
  • Kevin Kelly's view that AI will help us conceptualize new modes of thinking might be met with skepticism from those who believe that AI, while powerful, cannot fundamentally change our capacity for understanding different forms of intelligence.

Actionables

  • You can foster creativity by surrounding yourself with diverse thinkers, which could mean joining a local club or online community that focuses on innovative projects or abstract concepts. By engaging with people who have different perspectives, you can challenge your own ideas and potentially come up with novel solutions to problems you're working on.
  • Start a personal project that requires you to think about the long-term impact of your actions, like planting a tree or creating a time capsule with messages for future generations. This activity can help shift your focus from immediate gratification to the broader narrative of your life and the legacy you want to leave.
  • Experiment with redefining intelligence in your daily life by learning a new skill or hobby in a way that's foreign to you, such as using only visual guides instead of written instructions. This can help you appreciate the spectrum of intelligence and understand that there are multiple ways to approach learning and problem-solving.

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#782: Legendary Inventor Danny Hillis (Plus Kevin Kelly) — Unorthodox Lessons from 400+ Patents, Solving the Impossible, Real Al vs. “AI”, Hiring Richard Feynman, Working with Steve Jobs, Creating Parallel Computing, and Much More

Danny Hillis' Background as an Inventor and Scientist

Danny Hillis, notable for his contributions to parallel computing and artificial intelligence, owes his successful career to his early recognition of the necessity for high-performance parallel computers and his audacious steps as a graduate student at MIT.

Danny Hillis pioneered parallel computing and AI while completing his doctorate at MIT.

Danny Hillis was a trailblazer during his time at MIT. He realized that the advancement of AI depended on the existence of fast, high-capacity parallel computers, which were nonexistent. To remedy this, Hillis founded Thinking Machines while still a graduate student, against the advice of his university, and began building large-scale parallel computers. Drawing inspiration from his personal influences, who were skeptics in their fields open to external ideas, Hillis’s unconventional thinking led him to pursue projects others considered impossible.

Hillis was surrounded by influential figures like Dick Viman and Marvin Minsky, who valued unorthodox approaches. He knew he wanted to work in AI and specifically with Minsky at MIT. To get involved with AI at MIT, Hillis invented a way for children who couldn't read or write to program computers. Hillis began building a massive parallel computer during his PhD studies, which outgrew the boundaries of a university project. Despite being told he couldn't establish a company while being a graduate student, he proceeded in hiring faculty and even the former president of MIT.

He designed and built the first multi-core chips essential for parallel computers, motivated by the efficiency of the human brain despite its relatively slow components. Hillis saw the preconditions for success in the concurrent advancements of CMOS chip design, compiler technology, and digital inputs from devices like television cameras and audio equipment. Questioning prevailing assumptions, such as Amdahl's law which was skeptical of parallel computing's efficiency, Hillis proved the law wrong by showing that problem size changes with a computer’s power.

Hillis' parallel computing company, Thinking Machines, became the fastest computer maker for many years, but failed to become a sustainable business.

Thinking Machines was Hillis' first significant founding venture, aiming to build the first large parallel computer. This machine rapidly became the world’s fastest computer, a testament to Hillis's vision and the technical prowess of his team. However, despite its technical achievements, Thinking Machines did not achieve business success, which Hillis attributes to an array of management mistakes, such as insufficient cash reserve ...

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Danny Hillis' Background as an Inventor and Scientist

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Hillis's approach to proving Amdahl's law wrong may be seen as a specific case rather than a general refutation, as Amdahl's law still applies in many scenarios where parallelization does not significantly improve performance.
  • The assertion that Hillis designed and built the first multi-core chips could be contested, as the development of multi-core processors was a field of research and development with many contributors, and it's difficult to attribute the "first" to a single individual or team without clear historical records.
  • The failure of Thinking Machines as a sustainable business could be argued as not solely due to management mistakes but also due to market conditions, technological limitations, and competition at the time.
  • The claim that Hillis ventured into quantum computing with Richard Feynman might be overstated, as their work was exploratory and did not lead to the development of a functional quantum computer.
  • The idea that Hillis's current work is informed by his past experiences could be seen as a c ...

Actionables

  • Explore the potential of parallel thinking by tackling a complex problem with a group, where each person independently works on a part of the problem before sharing insights. This mimics the concept of parallel computing and can be done in a simple setting like a book club or a study group, where each member is assigned a different aspect of a topic to research and then the group synthesizes the information together.
  • Encourage creative problem-solving by setting aside time each week to brainstorm unconventional solutions to everyday problems. This could be as simple as finding a new way to organize your workspace using household items or coming up with a game to make a mundane task more enjoyable. The key is to value creativity over convention, inspired by the innovative thinkers mentioned.
  • Learn from setbacks ...

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#782: Legendary Inventor Danny Hillis (Plus Kevin Kelly) — Unorthodox Lessons from 400+ Patents, Solving the Impossible, Real Al vs. “AI”, Hiring Richard Feynman, Working with Steve Jobs, Creating Parallel Computing, and Much More

Danny Hillis' Experience at Disney

Danny Hillis' tenure at the Walt Disney Company, where he served as the esteemed Disney Fellow and Vice President of Imagineering, presented him with a profound shift in perspective from his technical roots to embracing an artistic, narrative-driven approach to creation.

A Different Approach to Problem-Solving and Creativity

As the second individual to hold the title of Disney Fellow after Salvador Dali, Hillis entered a world quite apart from the one he knew. He recounts his time with Disney as a second education valuable to his growth, diverging from his MIT-driven technical education. At Disney, Hillis encountered an "artistic" way of thinking about projects, where experiences and narratives took the forefront over engineering problems.

Hillis was ushered into a novel work experience that included receiving paychecks and benefits, symbolizing his transition into a larger company culture. This was a stark contrast to his past where he was issuing paychecks, further highlighting the shift in dynamic and roles he had previously occupied.

Embracing Storytelling and User-Centric Approaches

The storytelling approach Hillis learned at Disney deeply influenced his later work, like the development of the 10,000-year clock. He adopted a user-centric design philosophy that prioritized the user experience and emotional connection, integrating the narrative in the design and function of projects.

One notable example of an experience-driven approach was the design of the 10,000-year clock. Rather than always displaying the current time, the clock only updates its display when someone new visits and winds it. This feature not only saves power but also creates a unique and memorable experience, providing visitors with the opportunity to feel a personal connection to the clock and even take a rubbing as a souvenir. Such elements underscore the importance Hillis places on creating personal memories, a testament to the user experience tenets he adopted.

Hillis fondly reflects on the creative meetings he attended at Disney, such as those planning new builds like Florida's Animal Kingdom, where he grasped the weight of storytelling. At first, a disconnect was evident between Hillis' engineering mindset and his colleagues' artistic vision. He initially didn't grasp the immersive importance of the castles and aesthetics his colleagues presented, but he eventually recogn ...

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Danny Hillis' Experience at Disney

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Counterarguments

  • While Hillis' shift towards a narrative-driven approach is praised, it could be argued that in some contexts, especially in engineering and technical fields, a strong focus on storytelling might detract from the necessary attention to technical details and precision.
  • The emphasis on user experience and emotional connection is important, but it might not always align with the goals of certain projects, particularly those that require more functional or utilitarian outcomes.
  • The idea that Hillis received a "second education" at Disney could be seen as undervaluing the importance of his technical background; in reality, a balance of both technical expertise and creative thinking is often necessary for innovation.
  • The user-centric design philosophy, while beneficial in many cases, might not be the best approach for all types of projects, especially those where user interaction is minimal or where other factors, such as cost or efficiency, are more critical.
  • The design of the 10,000-year clock as an example of an experience-driven approach may not resonate with everyone; some might prefer a more traditional, constantly visible time display and may not see the value in the clock's unique interaction.
  • The importance of storytelling in projects like Florida's Animal Kingdom could be critiqued by those who believe that the focus should be on conservation and education rather than immersive entertainment.
  • ...

Actionables

  • You can start a personal journal to document your daily experiences with a focus on the narrative of your day. Begin by writing a short story each evening, describing not just what happened but also how it made you feel and the lessons learned. This practice will help you develop a narrative-driven mindset, seeing your life's events as part of a larger story, much like Hillis learned to prioritize experiences and narratives.
  • Transform a routine task or project into an experience by adding a storytelling element. For example, if you're organizing your home, create a "mission" narrative around it, such as imagining you're preparing a space station for incoming astronauts. This approach can make mundane tasks more engaging and enjoyable, mirroring Hillis' user-centric design philosophy that focuses on the user experience.
  • When giving gif ...

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#782: Legendary Inventor Danny Hillis (Plus Kevin Kelly) — Unorthodox Lessons from 400+ Patents, Solving the Impossible, Real Al vs. “AI”, Hiring Richard Feynman, Working with Steve Jobs, Creating Parallel Computing, and Much More

Danny Hillis' Work on the 10,000-year Clock

Danny Hillis, the creative force behind the 10,000-year mechanical clock, drives a project that aims to recalibrate humanity's relationship with time, encouraging long-term thinking with a connection to the human experience.

The 10,000-year clock project was Hillis' effort to encourage long-term thinking and a different perspective on the future.

Hillis' vision is encapsulated within a monumental clock, funded by Jeff Bezos, which resides inside a mountain in West Texas. Hillis expresses optimism that despite potential setbacks, progress will continue. He suggests that, although it may progress in a 'two steps forward, one step back' fashion, there will be people to witness the 10,000-year clock at the end of its designated timeframe.

Hillis sees the 10,000-year clock as a way to shift people's mindset about the future and create an iconic image or story about humanity's long-term trajectory.

Hillis explains that the significance of the 10,000-year clock lies not just in the remarkable engineering feat but in what it signifies. The clock has been designed to focus on human engagement over technical precision. This perspective led to features such as the ability for visitors to take home a unique rubbing of the date—integrating a personal dimension to the interaction and supporting the clock's longevity through visitor experiences.

The clock's existence as a real, physical project, rather than just a concept, has helped it take on a life of its own as a cultural story and symbol.

The clock isn't just a timepiece; it's a cultural narrative ab ...

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Clarifications

  • The 10,000-year clock project, led by Danny Hillis, aims to encourage long-term thinking by creating a monumental clock designed to operate for 10,000 years. It serves as a symbol of human resilience and potential, shifting people's mindset about the future through a physical representation of long-term timekeeping. The clock is not just a timepiece but a cultural narrative meant to prompt a shift in perspective towards humanity's enduring presence and the importance of considering the long-term impact of our actions.
  • Danny Hillis is the visionary behind the 10,000-year clock project, which aims to encourage long-term thinking and a different perspective on the future. He played a crucial role in designing the clock, emphasizing human engagement over technical precision. Hillis believes the clock symbolizes human resilience and potential, serving as a beacon of hope for future generations. His work on the project reflects his belief in the enduring presence of humanity and the importance of shifting mindsets towards long-term perspectives.
  • The 10,000-year clock, funded by Jeff Bezos and designed by Danny Hillis, is located inside a mountain in West Texas. This remote location was chosen to provide a secure and stable environment for the long-term operation of the clock, away from urban development and potential disruptions. The clock's placement within the mountain enhances its durability and longevity, ensuring it can continue functioning for millennia. This unique setting adds to the mystique and grandeur of the project, emphasizing its long-term perspective and significance.
  • The 10,000-year clock, designed by Danny Hillis, is a monumental project funded by Jeff Bezos. It is located inside a mountain in West Texas and focuses on human engagement over technical precision. Vi ...

Counterarguments

  • The clock may not effectively encourage long-term thinking if it does not reach a broad audience or if the message is not clearly communicated and understood by the public.
  • The project's cost and resources could be seen as excessive for symbolic purposes when they might be used for more immediate and tangible long-term initiatives, such as environmental conservation or education.
  • There is a risk that the clock could become a monument to human hubris rather than a catalyst for change if people focus more on the engineering achievement than the intended message.
  • The assumption that progress will continue in a linear or even "two steps forward, one step back" fashion may be overly optimistic, ignoring potential catastrophic events that could drastically alter human civilization.
  • The clock's reliance on future generations to maintain and value it assumes a continuity of culture and priorities that may not hold true over such a long timescale.
  • The idea that the clock will become a new cultural symbol may be presumptuous, as it is difficult to predic ...

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#782: Legendary Inventor Danny Hillis (Plus Kevin Kelly) — Unorthodox Lessons from 400+ Patents, Solving the Impossible, Real Al vs. “AI”, Hiring Richard Feynman, Working with Steve Jobs, Creating Parallel Computing, and Much More

Danny Hillis' Philosophical Perspectives

Danny Hillis provides thought-provoking insights into the notions of cause and effect, consciousness, and intelligence. His reflections suggest a profound reevaluation of some of our most fundamental assumptions about reality and cognition.

Skepticism of Cause and Effect

Hillis is critical of the human tendency to perceive the world through the lens of cause and effect. He suggests this perspective may not reflect a fundamental truth about the universe.

Cause and Effect as a Narrative Construct

Hillis challenges the widespread belief in cause and effect, considering it as a story humans tell because of their social nature and tendency to personify their environment. He is dubious about the traditional understanding that a force causes masses to accelerate. Hillis posits that this is not necessarily a fundamental truth but rather one intuitive way to narrate events.

Limitations of Human Understanding

Hillis points out that our reliance on cause and effect could be seen as a cognitive limitation that might not be shared by more advanced intelligences. He argues that, especially within the context of quantum computing, the cause and effect paradigm breaks down. For example, observing a quantum state changes that state, which complicates our conventional understanding of causality.

Hillis sees our brain's wiring as inclined to believe in cause and effect, akin to a belief in a first cause like God. This, he suggests, simplifies reality into a thread we can comprehend. While acknowledging its usefulness in human thinking, he emphasizes that it is merely a "trick," not an accurate reflection of universal operation.

Downplaying the Role of Consciousness

Hillis explores the concept of consciousness and its importance in relation to intelligence, advancing provocative ideas about what AI and quantum computing could reveal.

Consciousness as a Byproduct of Intelligence

Hillis ponders whether consciousness is as central to intelligence as we think. He suggests it might be more of an evolutionary "hack" for specific functions such as communication or self-reflection. This perspective opens up the possibility that intelligence could exist without consciousness as we understand it. He proposes that the mechanisms in our brain for language might have given rise to consciousness through repurposing for internal dialogue and self-reflection.

AI and Quantum Computing Shaping Understanding of Intelligence

Hillis anticipates that futur ...

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Danny Hillis' Philosophical Perspectives

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Counterarguments

  • The concept of cause and effect is deeply rooted in empirical science and has been validated through countless experiments; dismissing it entirely could undermine the foundation of scientific inquiry.
  • Cause and effect may be more than a narrative construct; it could be an intrinsic part of the universe's structure, as evidenced by the reproducibility of scientific experiments and the predictability of natural laws.
  • While quantum mechanics challenges classical notions of causality, it does not necessarily invalidate cause and effect but rather suggests a more complex interplay that still requires a causal explanation at a different level.
  • The human brain's wiring for cause and effect has been an evolutionary advantage, enabling us to make predictions and control our environment, suggesting it has a basis in reality.
  • Consciousness may play a more significant role in intelligence than Hillis suggests, as it could be the feature that allows for the subjective experience necessary for certain types of problem-solving and creativity.
  • AI and quantum computing, while potentially offering new insights into intelligence, are creations of human minds that are themselves products of a consciousness-centric evolution, which may limit the extent to which they can transcend human modes of thought.
  • The assertion that intelligence could exist without co ...

Actionables

  • You can challenge your own cause-and-effect reasoning by keeping a journal where you write down daily events and then revisit them a week later to see if the outcomes you predicted based on certain causes were accurate. This practice will help you recognize patterns in your thinking and consider alternative explanations for events, thereby expanding your understanding of how complex systems might operate beyond simple cause and effect.
  • Experiment with non-linear storytelling by creating short stories or narratives that don't follow a traditional cause-and-effect structure. This could involve writing a story where events happen in parallel or where the relationship between events is not clearly defined. Engaging in this type of creative exercise can help you appreciate the potential for intelligence that doesn't rely on linear cause-and-effect reasoning, similar to how AI might process information.
  • Introduce randomness into yo ...

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