In this episode of The Peter Attia Drive, Dr. Eric Verdin and Peter Attia explore the biological mechanisms of aging, focusing on how immune system aging and metabolic changes affect overall health. They discuss the role of NAD—a molecule that influences hundreds of enzymes—and examine how different fuel sources impact longevity, with particular attention to the effects of ketones, fatty acids, and glucose on the body's aging process.
The conversation delves into current and emerging approaches for measuring biological age, including the limitations of epigenetic clocks and the potential of newer, multi-modal biomarkers. Verdin and Attia also address various interventions that may influence aging, such as NAD precursors, rapamycin, and glucose metabolism drugs, while noting both the promise and potential risks of these treatments.
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In a detailed discussion, Eric Verdin and Peter Attia explore how the immune and central nervous systems significantly influence aging. They explain that both systems have body-wide impacts, with age-related changes like thymus shrinkage and reduced T cell diversity affecting overall health. The experts note that immunosenescence—the aging of the immune system—played a crucial role in COVID-19 outcomes, particularly affecting those over 75.
Verdin and Attia discuss how oxidative stress, fuel choice, and metabolic efficiency influence aging. While the oxidative stress theory has faced skepticism, Verdin acknowledges that aging involves living in an oxidative environment. They explore how different fuel sources affect longevity, with ketones being considered the "cleanest" fuel, followed by fatty acids, while glucose is deemed the "dirtiest." The conversation touches on various glucose metabolism drugs, including [restricted term] and GLP-1 agonists, as potential tools for promoting longevity.
Verdin explains that NAD levels decrease with age, affecting over 600 enzymes and overall metabolic efficiency. He points to CD38 as a significant factor in reducing NAD levels during aging, noting that mice without CD38 live about 15% longer. While NAD precursors like NR and NMN show promise, Verdin advises caution due to potential risks, including elevated homocysteine levels. The discussion extends to rapamycin, which shows immune-enhancing properties at lower doses despite being known as an immunosuppressant.
Attia and Verdin critically examine the limitations of epigenetic clocks in assessing biological age. Verdin highlights how different cell types can show varying epigenetic ages, potentially confounding results. They suggest that emerging multi-modal biomarkers, including proteomics and organ-specific tests, might offer more reliable insights into aging processes. The experts discuss how these new approaches could lead to more personalized longevity interventions based on individual aging patterns.
1-Page Summary
Eric Verdin and Peter Attia discuss the complex interplay between aging and the immune and central nervous systems, addressing various aspects of how these systems influence longevity.
Both the immune system and the central nervous system have a rate-limiting role in aging due to their extensive influence across the body. As people age, changes to these systems, such as thymus shrinkage and loss of T cell diversity, have widespread repercussions on overall health and function. Peter Attia and Eric Verdin stress that disruptions in either the immune or nervous system can impact every single organ, which can influence the organism's well-being and function.
Verdin and Attia note that the immune system requires a balance as too much immunity can lead to autoimmunity, while too little can result in increased vulnerability to infections. The decline of the immune system and the accumulation of mutations contribute to a higher incidence of cancer with age. Immunosenescence, the aging of the immune system, was shown to dramatically influence outcomes during COVID-19, with increased mortality in those above 75 and in people with signs of accelerated aging.
The innate immune system provides an immediate defense against cellular damage and pathogens. However, Peter Attia notes that the innate immune response, characterized by fever and inflammation, occurs regardless of the number of times the same pathogen is encountered, potentially contributing to chronic inflammation with repeated exposures.
Eric Verdin highlights the fascinating yet detrim ...
Immune and Nervous System Roles In Aging
Eric Verdin and Peter Attia discuss the integral roles of oxidative stress, fuel choice, and [restricted term]/IGF-1 signaling in the aging process, emphasizing the need for attention to these factors in pursuing longevity.
Verdin acknowledges that while the oxidative stress theory of aging has been questioned, the aging process does involve living in an oxidative environment. This includes the leakage of electrons from the mitochondria as we age, suggesting a degradation in mitochondrial integrity.
Clinical trials with antioxidants such as vitamins E and C have failed to confirm their effectiveness against oxidative stress, leading some to prematurely dismiss the oxidative stress theory. However, reactive oxygen species (ROS) serve important signaling roles, including inducing protective inflammatory responses. Global, non-specific antioxidants may inadvertently suppress both harmful ROS and important signaling mechanisms.
Verdin echoes Martin Brand’s research, which showed targeted inhibition of certain mitochondrial sites to be beneficial while inhibiting others wasn't. Mention is made of the activation of oxidative stress during exercise that could serve a protective role as a signaling mechanism. Suppressing this stress with anti-inflammatory agents might reduce the benefits of exercise. Attia brings up zone two cardio as a potential way to improve mitochondrial health and function, potentially reducing oxidative stress and its role in aging.
Verdin uses the analogy of fuel in cars to articulate the concept of metabolic efficiency, with ketones like beta-hydroxybutyrate being considered the cleanest fuel, followed by fatty acids, and glucose being the dirtiest. He points out that mice on a pure fat diet lived longer and discusses the differences between high-fat diets and those high in both fat and sugar.
Verdin cites the Intervention Testing Program (ITP) findings, referencing drugs such as [restricted term] and canagliflozin, which affect glucose metabolism. [restricted term], ...
Metabolic Aging Drivers: Oxidative Stress, Fuel Choice, Insulin/Igf-1 Signaling
The conversation between Kaya Henderson and experts like Eric Verdin, Myles E. Johnson, and DeRay Mckesson focuses on the role of NAD, sirtuins, and other molecules in the aging process and the potential for interventions to promote longevity.
Eric Verdin emphasizes the importance of NAD, existing in two forms, NAD and NADH, and its critical role in metabolism, with over 600 enzymes using NAD. However, decreasing NAD levels are one of the hallmarks of aging and could lead to decreased metabolic efficiency. Sirtuins, enzymes with a narrow range of KD for NAD, have their activity influenced by NAD levels, which change with age.
Verdin points out that CD38 is a significant factor in reducing NAD levels during aging; knockout mice for CD38 do not exhibit a decline in NAD with age and live about 15% longer, suggesting that inhibiting CD38 could enhance NAD levels. CD38 is a membrane-anchored protein found in various cells, including T cells and macrophages. With aging, CD38 levels increase, particularly in the immune system, and are powerful inducers of CD38 expression via senescent cells and the SASP.
NMN and NR, precursors to NAD, are receiving interest for their ability to potentially restore NAD levels in aging individuals, but their use may only re-establish NAD levels temporarily and could accelerate the depletion process. Verdin himself observed an increase in homocysteine levels after taking NMN, a concern since elevated homocysteine is a risk factor for several health issues. After stopping NMN, his homocysteine levels returned to normal. NR eventually turns into NMN in the cell and follows the same metabolic pathway; thus, it carries similar risks.
Eric Verdin advises caution, suggesting a safe supplement dose of 250 milligrams for both NR and NMN and recommends monitoring homocysteine levels. Furthermore, there's concern that NAD supplementation might increase pro-inflammatory markers (SASPs), which depend on NAD, and potentially accelerate tumor growth, especially in those with early forms of cancer.
Considering the role of CD38 in NAD decline and its cleaving of NAD, inhibiting CD38 may be a more promising strategy than supplementing with NMN and NR. Verdin's work shows that CD38 inhibitors could prevent the decline in NAD and proposes targeting CD38 as a strategy for boosting NAD levels.
Verdin acknowledges the complexity of the field surrounding sirtuins, NAD-dependent enzymes that are controversial and have generated extensive research. Sirtuins are present in different cellular compartments and are sensors for NAD levels; thus, their activity might change as NAD levels vary with age. The interactions between sirtuins, NAD, and enzymes like CD38 highlight the intricacies of the metabolic and aging processes.
Peter Attia and Eric Verdin delve into the NAD and sirtuins dynamics, discussing their roles and the controversy surrounding them. They point out that sirtuins are involved in DNA repair, with previous foundational work in yeast leading to the cloning of human sirtuins.
Atti ...
Nad, Sirtuins, and Other Potential Longevity Interventions
Peter Attia and Eric Verdin engage in a critical discussion about the effectiveness of epigenetic clocks and emerging multi-modal biomarkers in assessing health related to aging, questioning their accuracy and the implications of the results they generate.
Epigenetic clocks have been a topic of significant interest in gauging biological age. However, these clocks present limitations. Verdin highlights that methylation clocks are often based on 500 methylation sites that are not attached to any specific gene, which creates ambiguity regarding the biological meaning of methylation changes at these sites.
Furthermore, Verdin refers to an experiment where sorting different T cell subsets revealed dramatic differences in epigenetic age between naive and central memory T cells, showing up to a 25-year gap. This finding underscores that variations in DNA obtained from different cell types can skew clock readings.
Conditions such as acute COVID infection or chronic immune activation can affect the relative proportion of cell types, potentially confounding the clocks by simulating accelerated aging. Verdin emphasizes the dynamic nature of blood and how shifts in cell population due to interventions could falsely suggest rejuvenation.
Attia and Verdin underscore that methylation changes are uncertain indicators of biological aging, noting that older clocks' methylation changes have not conclusively demonstrated a connection to genuine biological rejuvenation. While considered research tools, epigenetic clocks focusing on DNA methylation are not ready for prime time patient management.
Verdin discusses proteomics as an emerging field with greater potential than DNA methylation clocks. He refers to a paper by Tony Whiskeray that demonstrates how plasma proteomics change with age, suggesting their potential to track organ-specific physiological decline. The possibility of pinpointing a "frailty point" in an organ from a simple blood draw emerged from this research, indicating that organ health might be measured this way.
Verdin emphasizes the importance of a multi-sentinel approach, where different proteins could indicate health status for various organs. Attia ponders the real-world applicability ...
Challenges and Limitations of Aging Epigenetic Clocks and Biomarkers
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