Podcasts > The New Yorker: Fiction > Greg Jackson Reads Jennifer Egan

Greg Jackson Reads Jennifer Egan

By WNYC Studios and The New Yorker (paloma.orozco@prx.org)

In a captivating conversation for "The New Yorker: Fiction," Deborah Treisman hosts Greg Jackson to discuss how we wrestle with the fleeting nature of time, as illustrated in the works of Jennifer Egan. Jackson thoughtfully examines the concept of time through the lenses of literature and photography, interweaving narrative insights with cultural references. By dissecting scenes from "A Visit from the Goon Squad," they explore the fundamental conflict between our desire to preserve moments and time's relentless march forward. The episode presents a journey into the past's irrecoverability, with a focus on how photography attempts to capture what memory alone cannot— the precise instant that slips away even as it happens.

The psychological terrain of transitioning from childhood to adulthood is further navigated in the episode, revealing how these fundamental life stages affect relationships, self-identity, and emotional development. Treisman and Jackson probe the familial complexities as they unfold for characters like Charlie and Rolf, whose personal growth is marked by both introspection and external influence. They delve into the intricate web of family interactions, unpacking the repercussions of past decisions that linger like ghosts, representing our shared human experience of wrestling with history's permanent etchings. Listeners are treated to a multifaceted analysis of how formative experiences shape one's trajectory in indelible ways, illuminating the intricate dance between past and present selves.

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Greg Jackson Reads Jennifer Egan

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Greg Jackson Reads Jennifer Egan

1-Page Summary

Different perceptions of time: irrecoverability of the past, nostalgia, the inability to stop or recapture time

Deborah Treisman and Greg Jackson delve into the complexities of time, memory, and their tangible representations through photography. They convey how memories can often feel like burdens, particularly for individuals like Rolf who struggle with the persistent weight of the past. Treisman illuminates photography's attempt to freeze time, in contrast with the more fluid nature of memory. Highlighting Jennifer Egan's "A Visit from the Goon Squad," Jackson describes time as an unstoppable force, disposing moments instantly, and further analyses the differences between photography and real-time observation with examples such as Kronos and Lou's dissimilar approaches to capturing moments.

Development, growth, and transition from childhood into adulthood

The path from youth to adult life is portrayed as one fraught with challenges and revelations, as exemplified by Charlie and Rolf. The narrative demonstrates their awkward navigation through adolescence, characterized by a loss of innocence and the profound effect of rapid maturation sparked by a three-week safari. Both characters grapple with their evolving identities: Charlie in an almost rebellious assertion of self and Rolf through a reluctant emergent sexuality and shifting worldview. They embody the journey of self-discovery, confronting the demands a world in constant forward motion makes on their youthful simplicity.

Family and relationship dynamics

Lou's complex history of broken relationships and divorce takes a toll on his children, Charlie and Rolf, affecting their emotional states and relationship dynamics. Mindy, Lou's girlfriend, emerges as a surrogate maternal figure for Rolf, providing comfort and security while blending into their family life. Despite her caring role, a certain complexity persists, marked by Rolf's conflicting emotions and her possibly changing status within the family. The dynamic between family members is further complicated by Lou's fraught romantic history and Mindy's evolving connections with his children.

Irrecoverable past decisions and the desire to go back in time

Mindy is haunted by past decisions, particularly her choice not to run away with Albert, representing a critical juncture in her life that she deeply regrets. Her fixation on this irrevocable moment accentuates the theme that past decisions shape our current existence irreplaceably. Mindy's contemplation stands as a testament to the universal struggle of living with the outcomes of our choices, echoing the pervasive desire to rewrite history despite the immutability of time.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The comparison between photography and real-time observation highlights the differences in capturing moments: photography freezes a specific instant in time, while real-time observation allows for a continuous flow of experiences. Photography aims to preserve a moment indefinitely, creating a tangible record, whereas real-time observation involves experiencing events as they unfold without the ability to pause or rewind. This comparison underscores how each method offers distinct perspectives on time and memory, influencing how we perceive and interact with the past and present.
  • In photography, moments are captured and preserved in a static form, creating a sense of frozen time. Memories, on the other hand, are dynamic and subject to change over time, influenced by emotions and perceptions. While a photograph remains constant, memories can evolve and be reshaped by our experiences and interpretations. This contrast highlights how photography attempts to preserve a moment in time, while memories are fluid and can be altered by various factors.

Counterarguments

  • While photography is said to freeze time, one could argue that it also captures a perspective or interpretation of a moment, which can evolve over time as the context and viewer's understanding change.
  • The idea that time is an unstoppable force is a common theme, but some philosophies and theories suggest that time is not linear or may not even exist as we perceive it.
  • The transition from childhood to adulthood can be seen not only as challenging but also as an exciting period of growth and opportunity, with the potential for positive transformation and the development of resilience.
  • The portrayal of adolescence as a loss of innocence might be overly simplistic, as this period can also be a time of gaining wisdom, knowledge, and a more nuanced understanding of the world.
  • The impact of a parent's broken relationships on children is complex, and children may not always be negatively affected; they can also learn valuable lessons about relationships and resilience.
  • The role of a surrogate maternal figure like Mindy could be seen as beneficial, providing alternative forms of family and support that challenge traditional family structures.
  • Regret over past decisions, such as Mindy's, can be counterproductive; some might argue that focusing on the present and future possibilities can lead to a more fulfilling life.
  • The desire to go back in time and change past decisions may overlook the value of those experiences in shaping one's character and leading to personal growth.

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Greg Jackson Reads Jennifer Egan

Different perceptions of time: irrecoverability of the past, nostalgia, the inability to stop or recapture time

Greg Jackson and Deborah Treisman explore the complex relationship between memory, time, and their representation in physical forms, and the impact these perceptions have on individuals' emotional states and perspectives.

The gap between memory and photographing to capture moments

The conversations about memory and photography reveal that while photography tries to stop time, memory becomes a burden when one cannot escape the past.

Memory as a burden and being stuck in the past (Rolf)

Deborah Treisman suggests that for Rolf, memory acts as a burden because he is stuck in a past moment he cannot recapture, unable to forget events that weigh heavily on him. Greg Jackson connects this fixation on memory to the absence of mothers and the responsibilities of surrogacy, considering who will raise the children, hinting at nostalgia and the irrecoverability of the past.

Photographing reality and trying to freeze time (Lou and Kronos)

Jackson and Treisman both discuss the role of photography in capturing moments in time. They highlight how photography represents an attempt to freeze time, which is different from how memory or storytelling works. Treisman points out that, in the past, photographs only became memories when they were developed, unlike the immediacy of today's digital photography.

Jackson goes on to illustrate the theme of time in "A Visit from the Goon Squad," characterizing it as an uncontrollable force that disposes of moments as soon as they occur. The omniscient narration, which allows for temporal leaps, can cast a nostalgic glow and make the past feel lost. For instance, Mindy, in the future, sees a particular past event as the last perfect moment of her l ...

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Different perceptions of time: irrecoverability of the past, nostalgia, the inability to stop or recapture time

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • "A Visit from the Goon Squad" is a Pulitzer Prize-winning novel by Jennifer Egan that explores interconnected characters and their experiences over time. The book delves into themes of music, time, memory, and the passage of life. Egan uses innovative narrative techniques, including non-linear storytelling and different perspectives, to create a rich tapestry of interconnected stories. The novel reflects on how time shapes individuals and relationships, often highlighting the nostalgia and complexities of memory.
  • The comparison between binoculars and cameras highlights the difference in how they capture moments: binoculars provide a continuous view, allowing for ongoing observation, while cameras freeze specific moments in time, isolating them from the continuous flow of events. This contrast emphasizes the active engageme ...

Counterarguments

  • While photography attempts to stop time, it can also be argued that it serves as a tool for reflection and learning, not merely a means to cling to the past.
  • Memory may be burdensome for some, like Rolf, but for others, it can be a source of comfort and identity, providing a sense of continuity and personal history.
  • The idea that photography freezes time is a simplification; photographs can also inspire imagination and serve as a starting point for new stories and memories.
  • The portrayal of time in "A Visit from the Goon Squad" as an uncontrollable force is one perspective; others might view time as a construct that can be experienced and understood in various, more empowering ways.
  • The notion that memory distorts over time can be countered by the argument that memory also has the ability to preserve details with remarkable accuracy, and that distortion is not an inherent quality of memory.
  • The comparison between binoculars and cameras might overlook the fact that both tools can be used ...

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Greg Jackson Reads Jennifer Egan

Development, growth, and transition from childhood into adulthood

The narrative explores the complex journey of growing up, as exemplified through the characters of Charlie and Rolf and the loss of innocence and challenges they face as they transition into adulthood.

Coming of age, loss of innocence, moving forward in life (Charlie and Rolf)

Growing up quickly versus remaining a child, questions around maturation (the warriors, Mindy, Charlie, Rolf)

Charlie and Rolf's journey into adulthood is marked with both interpersonal and internal challenges. Whereas Charlie is perceived by the warrior as a child, despite attempts to command adult attention, Rolf walks beside his father, wrestling with expectations to discuss adult matters such as women's behavior. Charlie, at the tender age of 14, is yet to fully comprehend her identity. However, her impending future is riddled with joining a cult, battling drug addiction, and navigating tumultuous relationships before attempting to bridge the growing divide between Rolf and Lou.

Personal growth is evident for Rolf, who, while dancing with Charlie, feels the poignant reality of maturing. Simultaneously, Charlie yearns for her father's recognition and battles with issues surrounding her identity, willing herself to be more boy-like, arguably as a strategy to woo her father's favor.

Rolf's revelations are both bittersweet and sobering, grappling with sexual awakening while observing the world's complex dynamics. The safari, lasting three weeks, propels both Charlie and Rolf rapidly forward on their journeys to maturity, influencing their perceptions profoundly. Rolf's concern for the lion cubs and his disquiet regarding the glorified recounts of the lion encounter symbolize a maturing mindset.

While Rolf distances himself from his past by reluctantly putting aside "The Hobbit" for snorkeling—an activity suggesting progression into adult behaviors—Charlie accepts her true self, embodying 'Charlene,' and steps away from her former self—signifying maturity. Despite ...

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Development, growth, and transition from childhood into adulthood

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The safari in the narrative serves as a catalyst for personal growth and maturation for the characters, Charlie and Rolf. It exposes them to new experiences, challenges, and perspectives, accelerating their transition from childhood to adulthood. The interactions and observations during the safari prompt introspection and self-discovery, shaping their evolving identities. The safari symbolizes a pivotal moment in the characters' journeys, marking a significant shift in their understanding of themselves and the world around them.
  • Rolf putting aside "The Hobbit" for snorkeling symbolizes his transition from childhood to adulthood. "The Hobbit" represents his youthful innocence and imagination, while snorkeling signifies engaging in more mature and real-world experiences. This action reflects Rolf's willingness to embrace new challenges and leave behind the comfort of childhood literature.
  • Charlie and Rolf navigate complex challenges related to their identities and maturity as they transition into adulthood. Charlie gra ...

Counterarguments

...

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Greg Jackson Reads Jennifer Egan

Family and relationship dynamics

Divorce, surrogate parental figures, evolving connections

Lou's history of failed marriages and relationships

Lou's personal life is marked by a trail of broken relationships and marital failures. He has been twice-divorced and has other children back in Los Angeles. This history suggests a complicated dynamic within his family, as Charlie and Rolf appear to be directly affected by Lou's turbulent romantic life. Lou's current relationship with his girlfriend Mindy further adds to the complexity, as there is uncertainty regarding the permanence of this new union. Rolf's deep rage upon returning from their father's pool to find their mother alone underscores the ongoing tension that these failed relationships have caused.

Mindy as a maternal figure for Rolf; her changing roles

Mindy's presence in the lives of Lou's children is significant, especially for his preadolescent son, Rolf. Described as feeling maternal towards Rolf, Mindy's relationship with him transcends that of merely being his father's girlfriend. Rolf, unable to distinguish between his desires and his father's, seemingly accepts and embraces Mindy into his life. Her protective and nearly lion-like demeanor provides a sense of security and comfort to Rolf during a traumatic memory, suggesting a nurturing, almost motherly connection.

Mindy's actions reflect those of a surrogate mother—offering to walk Rolf upstairs, preparing his bed, and reassuring him of her proximity at night. Rolf himself is conflicted about Mindy's role, contemplating whether to tell his father something that could be construed as punishment towards her. These actions and thoughts hint at the complicated and possibly strained relationship they share.

Charl ...

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Family and relationship dynamics

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Lou has experienced two divorces and has children from previous relationships in Los Angeles, indicating a pattern of failed marriages and relationships. This history suggests a complex family dynamic, impacting his current relationships and his children, Charlie and Rolf. The turbulence in Lou's romantic life has created ongoing tension and challenges within the family unit. Lou's current relationship with Mindy adds another layer of complexity and uncertainty to his personal life and its effects on his children.
  • Lou's history of failed marriages and relationships has created a sense of instability and uncertainty in the lives of his children, Charlie and Rolf. The constant upheaval from these failed relationships has led to emotional turmoil and tension within the family dynamic, impacting how Charlie and Rolf perceive relationships and stability in their own lives. The presence of Lou's current girlfriend, Mindy, further complicates the situation, as her role in their lives adds another layer of complexity and potential conflict for the children. This ongoing cycle of failed relationships and changing parental figures has contributed to a sense of unease and insecurity for Charlie and Rolf, shaping their understanding of family and relationships.
  • Rolf's relationship with Mindy is complex due to her maternal role in his life, which goes beyond being his father's girlfriend. Rolf struggles with conflicting emotions as he navigates accepting Mindy's presence while also feeling conflicted about her impact on his family dynamics. His contemplation about sharing something that could affect Mindy suggests inner turmoil and uncertainty about their relationship dynamics. The evolving connection with Mindy, potentially as a step-mother, adds layers of complexity to Rolf's emotions and perceptions within his family unit.
  • Mindy's actions as a surrogate mother to Rolf are significant because they show her providing maternal care and support beyond her role as Lou's girlfriend. She offers comfort, security, and nurturance to Rolf, displaying protectiv ...

Counterarguments

  • Lou's history of failed relationships does not necessarily mean he cannot maintain a stable family dynamic in the future.
  • The impact of Lou's romantic life on Charlie and Rolf may be mitigated by other factors such as their resilience, support from other family members, or professional counseling.
  • Mindy's relationship with Rolf, while significant, may not be as deep or motherly as portrayed, and Rolf's acceptance of her could be more out of necessity than genuine emotional connection.
  • Rolf's conflict about Mindy's role could be a normal part of adjusting to a new family member rather than indicative of a strained relationship.
  • The idea of Mindy becoming a step-mother is speculative and may not come to fruition, which means the evolving connection might not be as significant as suggested.
  • Rolf's contemplation of Mindy's impact could be a common developmental stage of understanding complex family relationships rather than a un ...

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Greg Jackson Reads Jennifer Egan

Irrecoverable past decisions and the desire to go back in time

In life, there are moments that can't be undone, paths taken that permanently alter our journey. Mindy, after marrying Lou, finds herself reflecting on these irrevocable choices, especially those regarding a character named Albert.

Moments that can't be undone; living with consequences

Mindy's desire to go back to the moment with Albert

Mindy fixates on a pivotal moment when she had the option to run away with Albert. This choice presents itself as a defining fork in the road of her life. She eventually comes to see Albert not just as a person but as the embodiment of her past mistakes and immaturities. For Mindy, Albert symbolizes her regrets and a profound longing for the chance to make different choices.

While Rolf’s recounted tale intended to punish Mindy for a past incident involving Albert, it inadvertently exposes her unresolved feelings and regrets about that moment. It becomes clear that Mindy harbors a deep-seated desire to go back to that crucial point in time.

The impossibility of changing the past

However, Mindy is acutely aware that the past is immutable. The decisions made ...

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Irrecoverable past decisions and the desire to go back in time

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The "what-ifs" in Mindy's life represent the alternative scenarios she imagines could have unfolded if she had made different choices in the past. These thoughts highlight Mindy's contemplation of the paths not taken and the potential outcomes that could have resulted from different decisions. They symbolize her lingering uncertainties and regrets about pivotal moments, emphasizing the contrast between the reality of her current life and the possibilities ...

Counterarguments

  • Mindy's fixation on the past may not necessarily symbolize past mistakes and immaturities; it could also represent a natural human tendency to romanticize what could have been or to idealize paths not taken.
  • The desire to go back and make different choices might not be a practical or healthy mindset; it could be more beneficial to focus on the present and future rather than dwelling on the past.
  • Rolf's tale might not have been the sole or even primary catalyst for Mindy's reflection on her past; her feelings could have been present and unresolved independently of Rolf's intentions.
  • While Mindy may harbor a desire to change the past, it's possible that this desire is not as deep-seated as it seems and could diminish over time as she comes to terms with her life choices.
  • The idea that the past is immutable is a philosophical standpoint; ...

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