Podcasts > The New Yorker: Fiction > Teju Cole Reads Anne Carson

Teju Cole Reads Anne Carson

By WNYC Studios and The New Yorker (paloma.orozco@prx.org)

Join David Remnick and Deborah Treisman as they welcome Teju Cole on "The New Yorker: Fiction" podcast for a contemplative journey through the intricacies of life and art. In this episode, Cole explores the poignant metaphor of swimming as a means to understand our place in an ever-changing world. He delves into the concept of momentum, both in the context of reading and navigating life's currents, considering the tangible sense of anonymity and freedom found beneath the water's surface. Here, swimming becomes a gateway to pondering the notions of identity and the liberating effects of 'swimmingness'.

The conversation also traverses the delicate art of storytelling and the appreciation of cultural beauty. Cole seeks an authentic experience of beauty, one devoid of pretense, and instead rooted in a quietly profound engagement with the world. The duo focuses on personhood versus collective identities, scrutinizing how stories often blur the unique with the broader narratives. Emphasizing the respect for our 'heartbroken little era,' they critique the cynicism in certain artistic expressions and celebrate an honest, empathetic approach to the shared journey of life. "The New Yorker: Fiction" invites listeners to reflect on individuality, sensitivity, and the resonating power of storytelling.

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Teju Cole Reads Anne Carson

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Teju Cole Reads Anne Carson

1-Page Summary

Swimming as a Metaphor

Teju Cole draws a parallel between swimming and navigating life, emphasizing the continuous motion required to find and maintain one's place in the world. He sees swimming as a metaphor for the joy derived from being in harmony with the dynamic currents of existence. Cole contemplates the concept of momentum in swimming, likening it to reading and life, where constant balance and adaptation are necessary. He remarks on the sensation of losing personhood when submerged in water, describing it as an envelopment in an indifferent element, leading to anonymity and a release from the constraints of identity. He is attracted to the notion of 'swimmingness' and its ability to provide an otherworldly experience of purity and freedom.

Art, Culture, and Sensitivity

Cole ruminates on the complexities of appreciating art and culture authentically, aspiring to experience beauty without the pretenses or burdens of cultural sophistication. He narrates a character's confrontation with unexpected beauty and the deep emotional response it inspires. Describing receptivity to the world's subtleties, Cole emphasizes that true appreciation involves quiet engagement and presence, allowing for an immersive experience that connects us to something larger. He views storytelling not as a means to instruct, but as a way to offer immersive experiences that can resonate deeply with individuals.

Personhood and Groups

The discussion with Treisman and Cole centers on the challenges of portraying individual versus collective identities in storytelling. They examine how language tends to simplify complex individual experiences into broader group narratives. Treisman addresses the notion of using composite groups to absolve personal accountability, while Cole contemplates the uniqueness of "one person only," which resists being defined in composite terms. They share an understanding of the significance of individual encounters, and the conversation underlines the importance of acknowledging the irreplaceable nature of each person.

Not Mocking Our Times

Cole and Treisman reflect on the importance of respecting the sensitivity of our era, advocating for an approach that avoids mockery of our "heartbroken little era." They discuss life as a dynamic pouring in and out, mirroring the ebb and flow of human existence. The narrative depicts a transition from individual awareness to a collective recognition of sorrow, highlighting empathy and a resolve to honor the shared human experience. Emphasizing the sincerity in artistic expressions, they critique the cynicism found in lesser works and advocate for genuine engagement with the complex tapestry of life.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • In storytelling, the portrayal of individual identities focuses on the unique characteristics and experiences of a single person, highlighting their personal journey and complexities. On the other hand, collective identities in storytelling involve representing broader groups or communities, often simplifying diverse individual experiences into shared narratives that reflect common themes or struggles. This discussion delves into the challenges of balancing the depth of individual stories with the broader perspectives of collective experiences, exploring how language and narrative choices shape our understanding of personal versus group identities. It underscores the importance of recognizing and respecting the nuances and intricacies of both individual and collective identities in storytelling to capture the richness and diversity of human experiences.
  • Using composite groups to absolve personal accountability involves attributing actions or characteristics to a collective entity rather than taking individual responsibility. This can serve as a way to shift blame or dilute personal culpability by merging individual experiences into a broader, less personal narrative. It can be a mechanism to distance oneself from specific actions or decisions by associating them with a larger group identity. This approach may overlook the nuances and complexities of individual experiences and responsibilities.
  • The sensitivity of our era and avoiding mockery of it: In the context of the text, this phrase alludes to the need to approach the current time period with respect and understanding, recognizing the challenges and complexities of the present moment without belittling or making light of them. It emphasizes the importance of acknowledging and empathizing with the struggles and emotions prevalent in society today, advocating for a sincere and compassionate engagement with the realities of our times.

Counterarguments

  • While swimming can be a powerful metaphor for life's challenges, not everyone may relate to this analogy, especially those who do not know how to swim or have a fear of water.
  • The idea that submersion leads to a loss of personhood could be contested by those who feel a strong sense of identity and self-awareness in water-based activities.
  • The concept of 'swimmingness' providing an otherworldly experience might not resonate with individuals who find similar experiences through other activities or who do not romanticize swimming in the same way.
  • The pursuit of authentic appreciation of art and culture without cultural sophistication could be seen as an oversimplification, as some level of understanding and context may enhance the depth of appreciation.
  • The notion that storytelling should not instruct but rather offer immersive experiences could be challenged by those who value didactic elements in narratives for their educational and moral implications.
  • The critique of language simplifying individual experiences into group narratives might overlook the utility and necessity of categorization in communication and understanding complex social dynamics.
  • The discussion on using composite groups to avoid personal accountability may not consider the importance of collective responsibility in addressing systemic issues.
  • The emphasis on the uniqueness of each individual could be seen as potentially neglecting the value of shared experiences and commonalities that forge social bonds and collective identities.
  • The call to respect the sensitivity of our era and avoid mockery might be challenged by proponents of satire and humor as vital tools for social commentary and coping mechanisms.
  • The critique of cynicism in art could be countered by the argument that cynicism itself can be a legitimate and insightful artistic perspective that reflects societal disillusionment.

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Teju Cole Reads Anne Carson

Swimming as a Metaphor

Teju Cole delves into swimming as a profound metaphor for momentum, position, and the transcendence of individual identity.

Importance of momentum

Finding the right place

Teju Cole ponders the dynamic nature of finding one's place in the world, drawing a parallel to swimming where "every water has the right place to be, but that place is in motion." He suggests that just as swimming requires constant adaptation and movement to find the right place, life demands continuous adjustment and progress. Cole reflects on the joy his partner finds in swimming, capturing the essence of being in the right rhythm with the water.

Not failing the water

Cole notes the necessity of maintaining the right momentum and not failing the water when swimming. It’s a process that requires being in a particular place that is, by its nature, always moving. The significance of preserving momentum extends beyond the water—it is a metaphor for the flow in reading and in life, where each action is reminiscent of balancing in the ever-moving water.

Losing one's self

Lack of personhood

In his reflections, Cole speaks to the loss of individuality that comes with being submerged in water. He notes that in the water, a person has no personhood and is enveloped in an element indifferent to their existence. Furthermore, when swimming, aspects of ...

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Swimming as a Metaphor

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Teju Cole's concept of "not failing the water" emphasizes the importance of maintaining the right momentum while swimming. It signifies the need to adapt and move in sync with the water's flow, rather than resisting or struggling against it. By staying attuned to the water's movement and rhythm, one can navigate effectively and find balance in the dynamic environment of swimming. Failing the water would imply losing this harmony and struggling against the natural forces at play, hindering one's ability to move efficiently and enjoy the experience.
  • When Teju Cole discusses the loss of individuality when submerged in water, he is referring to the experience of being enveloped in an element that diminishes one's sense of self. In the water, one's usual markers of identity, such as responsibilities and skills, become less relevant, leading to a feeling of anonymity. This loss of individuality can create a sense of liberation from the constraints of everyday life, allowing for a different kind of experience that transcends the boundaries of self. Cole explores how the immersion in water can evoke a feeling of purity and release, offering a unique perspective on existence that goes beyond the confines of personal identity.
  • The profound release and purity ...

Counterarguments

  • While swimming can be a metaphor for finding one's place and momentum, it may not resonate with everyone, as personal experiences and metaphors can be highly subjective.
  • The idea that swimming requires constant adaptation and movement could be countered by the fact that some people find comfort and success in stability and routine rather than continuous change.
  • The notion of maintaining momentum in life as in swimming might overlook the importance of rest, reflection, and the need to sometimes pause or change direction entirely.
  • The joy of being in rhythm with the water while swimming might not be universally shared; some may find swimming stressful or unenjoyable, and thus not associate it with joy.
  • The loss of individuality in water as a positive experience could be debated; some individuals might find the loss of identity in any context unsettling or undesirable ...

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Teju Cole Reads Anne Carson

Art, Culture, and Sensitivity

Teju Cole explores the challenges of appreciating art and culture in a meaningful way that’s devoid of pretension, submerging into the beauty of the world, and how one receives the emotions that art and nature can evoke.

Appreciating without pretension

Teju Cole delves into the complexity of writing about Bach and the inconveniences related to the association of his music with high culture. He reveals a desire to enjoy art for its inherent beauty without the need for cultural signaling or the burden of proving one's cultural sophistication.

Cole narrates an anecdote in which a character ponders how every body of water has unique characteristics and how its misuse may well involve failing to recognize beauty in its rawest form. In his quest to genuinely appreciate cultural works, Cole aims to situate himself directly in beauty's path.

Confronting beauty

Cole describes a moment when a character encounters a fox illuminated by a street lamp, its outline drawn in phosphorescent chalk. The scene, glowing and indescribable, represents a confrontation with unexpected beauty. This illustrates how one may confront beauty in everyday life and be moved beyond words.

Receiving the world

Through a narrative voice, Teju Cole speaks to the notion of receptivity — explaining a moment when a character regards a fox and the pears as a gift, akin to the way Bach's music is presented as a gift. This interaction is about more than simply observing the scene; it’s about how the world is internalized and received.

Cole further explains that appreciating the world can mean ...

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Art, Culture, and Sensitivity

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Bach's music is often associated with high culture due to its historical significance, complexity, and influence on classical music. This association stems from the perception of Bach's compositions as sophisticated and intellectually demanding, traditionally appreciated by elite circles and scholars. The intricate structures and profound emotional depth found in Bach's music have contributed to its reputation as a pinnacle of artistic achievement within the realm of classical music. This association with high culture has led to Bach's works being revered and studied in academic and cultural contexts that emphasize refinement and cultural sophistication.
  • Teju Cole uses the concept of receptivity to highlight how a character perceives the fox and pears as gifts, similar to how Bach's music is seen as a gift. This comparison emphasizes the idea of appreciating the world's beauty and art as offerings that enrich our experiences and connect us to something greater.
  • Immersion within a story goes beyond mere instruction; it aims to create an experience that deeply involves the audience, making them feel connected to the narrative ...

Counterarguments

  • While Cole advocates for appreciating art without pretension, some might argue that a certain level of cultural knowledge is necessary to fully understand and appreciate the context and nuances of art.
  • The idea of enjoying art solely for its inherent beauty may overlook the importance of the historical, social, and political contexts that give art its deeper meanings and relevance.
  • The concept of confronting unexpected beauty in everyday life assumes that everyone has the luxury of time and mental space to notice and appreciate these moments, which may not be the case for individuals preoccupied with more pressing life concerns.
  • The emphasis on receptivity and reducing sensory input to appreciate the world's nuances might not resonate with people who find meaning and engagement through a more active, participatory approach to art and li ...

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Teju Cole Reads Anne Carson

Personhood and Groups

The nuanced conversation surrounding Anne Carson's work, as presented by Treisman and Cole, examines the intricate relationship between an individual and collective identities, and how these concepts are navigated through language and storytelling.

Composite things vs. singularity

Treisman and Cole delve into the complexities of representing singularity versus composite groups in narrative frameworks. They question the legitimacy of collective representation and the ease with which it can overshadow the significance of individual experience.

Sentences let you off

Treisman discusses the idea of composite entities, such as groups identified as migrants, swimmers, the selfish, or the damned. She notes that when one speaks about a group rather than an individual, it provides a way to escape personal liability. This point is highlighted in the fact that one character, Chandler, stands as a singularity against the backdrop of the composite concept of refugees, marking his distinct status as an individual with a name and character.

Understanding one person

Discussing the contrast between the collective and the individual, Cole focuses on the title "One equals one," implying an exploration of encountering another as an equal—a singular, irreplaceable person. He suggests that sentences may encapsulate groups but fall short in capturing the essence of an individual's personhood.

Moreover, the conversation between Treisman and Cole emphasizes a sha ...

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Personhood and Groups

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The relationship between individual and collective identities explores how people define themselves both as unique individuals and as part of larger groups or communities. It delves into how individuals navigate their sense of self within the context of belonging to various social, cultural, or ideological groups. This dynamic interaction between personal identity and group affiliation shapes how individuals perceive themselves and are perceived by others. It involves understanding how personal experiences, beliefs, and values intersect with the shared norms, histories, and identities of the groups to which individuals belong.
  • Representation of singularity versus composite groups in narrative frameworks involves the portrayal of individuals as distinct entities versus as part of a larger collective. This distinction explores how storytelling can focus on individual experiences or group identities, raising questions about the balance between personal narratives and broader societal contexts. It delves into the complexities of capturing the essence of a single person's identity versus depicting them as part of a group with shared characteristics or experiences. This analysis sheds light on how narratives navigate between highlighting the uniqueness of individuals and the broader themes associated with collective identities.
  • The concept of collective representation overshadowing individual experience suggests that when discussing groups, the focus on the collective identity can diminish the unique experiences and perspectives of individual members within that group. This dynamic can lead to a loss of nuance and depth in understanding the personal stories and complexities of each person within the larger collective framework. It highlights the tension between recognizing the shared characteristics of a group and acknowledging the distinctiveness and significance of each individual's narrative. This discussion often revolves around how narratives and language shape our perceptions of groups and individuals, emphasizing the need to balance collective identities with the recognition of individual agency and autonomy.
  • Composite entities like migrants, swimmers, the selfish, or the damned are groups of individuals who share a common characteristic or experience. When discussed as a collective, individual nuances and complexities can be overlooked in favor of a generalized understanding. These groupings can serve as convenient labels but may oversimplify the diverse range of experiences and identities within the group. The concept highlights how categorizing individuals under broad labels can sometimes diminish the recognition of their unique qualities and personal stories.
  • Chandler's singularity against the backdrop of refugees highlights his distinct individuality amidst a group identity. This contrast emphasizes the unique characteristics and personal story of Chandler within the broader context of collective representation. It underscores the tension between individuality and group identity in narratives. Chandler's portrayal as an individual amidst a group of refugees serves to emphasize his personal agency and distinctiveness within the collective framework.
  • The title "One equals one" suggests the fundamental principle of recognizing each individual as a unique and equal entity. It emphasizes the importance of acknowledging and valuing the singular identity of each person encountered. This concept highlights the idea of treating others with respect and dignity, without diminishing their individuality in the collective narrative.
  • Sentences, often used to describe groups, can simplify complex identities but may struggle to convey the depth and uniqueness of individual personhood. While groups can be categorized and generalized within a sentence, the intricacies and nuances of an individual's essence can be challenging to capture fully in such broad strokes. This contrast highlights the limitations of language in encapsulating the richness ...

Counterarguments

  • The representation of singularity in narratives might sometimes be less impactful or relatable than composite groups, as collective experiences can resonate with a wider audience.
  • Collective representation can be legitimate and necessary to address issues that affect groups as a whole, such as social movements or historical events.
  • Speaking about groups does not always imply an escape from personal liability; it can also be a way to address systemic issues that transcend individual actions.
  • While Chandler stands out as an individual, the experiences of the refugee group may also hold important narratives that deserve attention and could be lost if the focus is solely on individuality.
  • Encountering others as singular, irreplaceable persons is important, but it is also essential to recognize the shared experiences and commonalities that bind people together.
  • Sentences and language, though limited, are tools that can be used creatively to capture aspects of individual personhood, even if not perfectly.
  • A shared moment of connection between characters mi ...

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Teju Cole Reads Anne Carson

Not Mocking Our Times

The contemplation of what it means to truly experience life and the way we view our existence within the collective journey of humanity is explored through a poignant narrative and insightful discussion.

Heartbroken little era

Through literary introspection, a profound sentiment is shared about respecting the sensitivity of our current times. The narrator reflects on the need to refrain from ridiculing our "heartbroken little era," a term that expresses both the fragility and tenderness of the period in which we live. This reflection arrives as a pivotal moment of insight that accelerates the heartbeat, sparked by the context of disciplined emotional containment that precedes it. Teju Cole and Deborah Treisman delve into the complexity of reconciling inner tranquility with the simultaneous suffering of others, a stark dichotomy that underscores the human condition.

Being alive as pouring in and out

The discussion captures the oscillation of existence—a notion paralleled by the image of Chandler, a character who is likened to a receding tide, epitomizing the ebb and flow of being. Being alive is characterized not as a static state but as a dynamic "pouring in and out," a sequence of acquiring and relinquishing, being replenished and then finding oneself hollow again.

Cole articulates a transition in how characters morph from states of individual immersion to a recognition of a collective sorrow. It is this shift that underpins a newfound sensitivity and the resolve not to disparage the shared plight of humanity, which he ...

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Not Mocking Our Times

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The term "heartbroken little era" conveys the delicate and vulnerable nature of the current period in history. It suggests a time marked by emotional fragility and sensitivity, emphasizing the collective experience of pain and turmoil within society. This phrase reflects a nuanced perspective on the challenges and struggles faced by individuals and communities in the present moment, highlighting the need for empathy and understanding in navigating these complexities. It encourages a respectful acknowledgment of the emotional landscape of our times, urging a compassionate approach towards the shared human experience of suffering and resilience.
  • The transition from individual immersion to recognizing collective sorrow signifies a shift in perspective from focusing solely on personal experiences to acknowledging and empathizing with the broader suffering and challenges faced by humanity as a whole. This evolution involves moving beyond one's immediate concerns and emotions to develop a deeper understanding of shared struggles and interconnectedness with others. It highlights a growth in empathy and a realization of the interconnected nature of human experiences, leading to a more profound sense of compassion and solidarity with the collective human condition. This transition underscores the importance of moving from a self-centered view of the world to a more inclusive and empathetic outlook that recognizes and responds to the pain and cha ...

Counterarguments

  • The concept of a "heartbroken little era" may be seen as overly sentimental or dismissive of the resilience and progress made during challenging times.
  • The dichotomy between inner tranquility and the suffering of others could be criticized for potentially creating a false binary, as one can experience both simultaneously or find tranquility through action against suffering.
  • Describing life as a dynamic process of acquiring and relinquishing might overlook the experiences of those who feel their lives are static or trapped in certain circumstances.
  • The transition from individual immersion to recognizing collective sorrow could be challenged as not universally applicable, as some individuals may remain focused on personal experiences or may not feel a sense of collective sorrow.
  • The resolve not to disparage humanity's shared plight could be seen as an avoidance of critical discourse that can lead to improvement and change.
  • The appreciation for art ...

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