Podcasts > The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast > 562. What Do We Actually Know About Autism? | Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

562. What Do We Actually Know About Autism? | Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

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In this episode of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Simon Baron-Cohen and Peterson discuss the complexities of autism spectrum conditions. Baron-Cohen explains his empathy-systemizing framework, which suggests that autistic individuals often excel at pattern recognition and systematic thinking while experiencing differences in empathy. He challenges traditional methods of categorizing autism severity and explores how autism manifests differently across individuals.

The conversation examines how the detail-oriented nature of autism can lead to achievements in engineering and innovation, using Temple Grandin as an example. Baron-Cohen and Peterson also delve into the relationship between empathy and cruel behavior, distinguishing between cognitive and affective empathy, and discussing how these differences manifest in both autistic individuals and psychopaths. The discussion explores how various factors, including power dynamics and political rhetoric, influence empathy at societal levels.

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562. What Do We Actually Know About Autism? | Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

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562. What Do We Actually Know About Autism? | Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

1-Page Summary

The Conceptualization and Core Features of Autism

In their discussion, Simon Baron-Cohen and Jordan Peterson explore the multifaceted nature of autism. Baron-Cohen emphasizes that autism isn't a single condition but rather encompasses various dimensions affecting social relationships, communication, and adaptability to change. He challenges traditional ways of categorizing autism severity based solely on language delay or intellectual disability, noting that these features don't necessarily indicate the true nature of a person's autism.

Empathy-Systemizing Framework

Baron-Cohen presents his empathy-systemizing framework, explaining that autistic individuals often display stronger systemizing abilities compared to empathizing skills. He notes that while population-level differences exist between men and women in these areas (with women typically scoring higher in empathy and men in systemizing), these trends shouldn't be used to make assumptions about individuals. The framework helps explain behavioral differences beyond traditional gender stereotypes.

Baron-Cohen discusses how the detail-oriented nature and pattern recognition abilities often seen in autistic individuals can lead to significant achievements in engineering and invention. He explains that the human capacity for complex tool building and innovation is driven by "if-then" logic, a type of systemizing that's particularly strong in some autistic individuals. Using Temple Grandin as an example, he illustrates how exceptional attention to detail can lead to unique insights and innovations.

Role of Empathy in Malevolence and Cruelty

Baron-Cohen examines the relationship between empathy and cruel behavior, distinguishing between cognitive empathy (understanding others' thoughts) and affective empathy (emotional response to others' pain). He notes that psychopaths often possess strong cognitive empathy but reduced affective empathy, while autistic individuals may show the opposite pattern. Together with Peterson, they explore how factors beyond empathy, such as power dynamics and status-seeking behavior, can drive cruelty, and how political rhetoric can erode empathy at a societal level.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • The empathy-systemizing framework may oversimplify the complex cognitive profiles of autistic individuals, as it does not account for the wide variability within the spectrum.
  • Categorizing individuals primarily on systemizing and empathizing abilities might inadvertently reinforce stereotypes or overlook other important cognitive and emotional aspects.
  • The assertion that systemizing is a core strength in autistic individuals could be challenged by research showing that not all autistic people have enhanced systemizing abilities.
  • The link between systemizing abilities and achievements in engineering and invention might not account for the social and educational barriers that prevent many autistic individuals from reaching their potential.
  • The discussion on empathy in autistic individuals may not fully represent the diversity of empathic abilities within the autism spectrum, as some may have strong affective empathy as well.
  • The comparison between psychopaths and autistic individuals in terms of empathy profiles could be seen as stigmatizing or misleading, as it juxtaposes two very different conditions without sufficient nuance.
  • The idea that political rhetoric can erode empathy at a societal level, while plausible, may not consider the complex interplay of factors that influence societal empathy, including economic, cultural, and educational influences.
  • The focus on malevolence and cruelty in relation to empathy might overlook the role of other factors such as trauma, mental health issues, and environmental stressors in driving such behaviors.

Actionables

  • You can enhance your understanding of others by practicing perspective-taking exercises. Start by observing a conversation and then write down what you think each person is feeling and why. This exercise can help you develop cognitive empathy by considering the mental states of others, which can be particularly useful if you find empathizing challenging.
  • Develop your pattern recognition skills through daily puzzles like Sudoku or nonograms. These activities can train your brain to recognize patterns and sequences, which can be beneficial for both personal development and professional tasks that require analytical thinking.
  • Encourage empathy in your social circles by initiating conversations about the impact of language and behavior on others. For example, when discussing current events or political issues, focus on the human element and how certain rhetoric might affect different groups of people. This can help foster a more empathetic approach to discussions and discourage the erosion of empathy in your community.

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562. What Do We Actually Know About Autism? | Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

The Conceptualization and Core Features of Autism

Autism is a multifaceted condition that impacts individuals in numerous ways. Simon Baron-Cohen and Jordan Peterson discuss the complexity, highlighting the importance of understanding its diverse nature rather than oversimplifying it.

Autism Is Multi-Dimensional, Not a Single Thing

Autism encompasses a spectrum of differences and challenges in social relationships, communication, and adaptability to change. Baron-Cohen emphasizes that autism is not a monolithic disorder; rather, it involves many dimensions and factors. He points out that autism can affect understanding others' intentions, coping with environmental changes, and finding comfort in predictable domains.

Autism: Differences in Relationships, Communication, and Coping With Change

Communication can be notably impacted in autism, with delays observed in the ability to produce joint or shared attention gestures, such as pointing, which impacts establishing a topic of conversation. Autistic individuals may also have difficulties in reading body language, facial expressions, and tone of voice due to variances in cognitive empathy or theory of mind. Additionally, coping with unexpected changes at a sensory level or within the environment can cause significant distress.

Debate Over Defining "Severe" Autism Is Complex

Baron-Cohen challenges the idea of categorizing autism into "severe" and "not severe" based solely on language delay or intellectual disability. He argues that these features do not necessarily correspond to the true nature or severity of a person’s autism. To illustrate this, he shares the story of an autistic individual who faced language and literacy delays but ultimately became a university professor, indicating that language delay does not always correlate with intellectual incapability.

Language Delay and Intellectual Disability Don't Indicate Severity; Some With These Challenges Have Achieved Greatly

Discussing the term "lack of theory of mind," Baron-Cohen explains that it involves varying degrees of difficulty with theory of mind rather than a total absence. He points out that autistic individuals can ...

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The Conceptualization and Core Features of Autism

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Theory of mind is the ability to understand that others have thoughts, beliefs, and perspectives different from your own. In autism, challenges with theory of mind can lead to difficulties in interpreting others' intentions and emotions accurately. This can affect social interactions and communication skills in individuals with autism. Understanding theory of mind is crucial in comprehending the social difficulties experienced by people on the autism spectrum.
  • Baron-Cohen challenges the notion of labeling autism as "severe" or "not severe" solely based on language delay or intellectual disability. He argues that these factors do not always reflect the true nature or severity of autism in individuals. Language delay does not always indicate a lack of intellectual capability or the extent of challenges a person with autism may face.
  • Language delay and intellectual disability are common traits in autism, but they do not solely determine the severity of the condition. Some individuals with autism who experience language delays or intellectual challenges can still achieve significant accomplishments and lead fulfilling lives. The complexity of autism goes beyond these initial markers, and individuals should not be solely judged based on these factors. Understanding the diverse nature of autism involves looking at a range of characteristics and chal ...

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562. What Do We Actually Know About Autism? | Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

Empathy-Systemizing Framework: Links to Autism, Sex Differences, and Behavior

Simon Baron-Cohen explores the empathy-systemizing framework's relationship to autism, gender differences, and individual behavior.

Autistic Individuals: Stronger Systemizing vs. Empathizing Profile

A cognitive style emblematic of many individuals with autism prioritizes understanding of systems and patterns over engaging with social cues, suggests Baron-Cohen.

Cognitive Style Prioritizes Systems and Patterns Over Social Cues

Autistic individuals, according to Baron-Cohen, may systemize persistently, displaying a fascination with how things work. These individuals might expend considerable effort in comprehending the components of a system or envision ways to alter existing systems to create new ones. Autism, he explains, often involves challenges in understanding others' beliefs, which is related to the concept of theory of mind—a field where Baron-Cohen has previously worked. Autistic individuals may have difficulty with non-literal communication but excel in activities involving systematic and pattern-based thinking. Jacob Jordan Peterson references Temple Grandin as an example of an autistic individual focusing on concrete examples rather than abstract generalizations, a pattern also observed by Baron-Cohen.

Sex Differences: Women Score Higher In Empathy, Men in Systemizing

Research has shown that women often score higher in empathy, while men show an advantage in systemizing, according to Baron-Cohen.

Baron-Cohen clarifies that these trends seen in studies—such as the EYES test where women infer feelings more accurately, or mechanical reasoning tests where men perform better—are averages among populations, not rules for individuals. He emphasizes that while general tendencies in sex differences exist, they should not influence assumptions about what jobs or roles individuals of any gender should pursue. The trends are indicative of brain type preferences, not gender itself, and there can be significant overlap a ...

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Empathy-Systemizing Framework: Links to Autism, Sex Differences, and Behavior

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • The empathy-systemizing theory may oversimplify the complex nature of cognitive abilities, which could involve a broader spectrum of skills and traits beyond just empathy and systemizing.
  • Recent research suggests that the binary categorization of empathy and systemizing may not fully capture the diversity of autistic experiences and abilities.
  • The emphasis on systemizing in autism might inadvertently reinforce stereotypes about autistic individuals being less capable of empathy, which is not always the case.
  • The use of gender differences in empathy and systemizing can be seen as reinforcing gender stereotypes, even if the intention is to describe population trends.
  • The variability within each gender is often greater than the average differences between genders, which could make the emphasis on these differences less relevant for understanding individual abilities.
  • The framework may not account for the influence of socialization and cultural factors on the development of empathy and system ...

Actionables

  • You can enhance your social interactions by practicing pattern recognition in social settings, such as observing body language sequences that often lead to certain responses. For example, notice how a friend's crossed arms might precede a change in conversation topic, which can help you better anticipate and understand social cues.
  • Develop a habit of explicitly asking people about their beliefs and perspectives in conversations to improve your understanding of others. This could involve starting discussions with questions like "What's your take on this?" or "How do you feel about that?" to gather diverse viewpoints and deepen your comprehension of different beliefs.
  • Explore new hobbies that involve systematic thinkin ...

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562. What Do We Actually Know About Autism? | Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

Links Between Systemizing, Tool Use, and Human Invention

Simon Baron-Cohen's research illuminates the connection between systemizing cognitive styles, seen often in autistic individuals, and human invention. He discusses how detail orientation and pattern recognition can lead to breakthroughs in engineering, music, and beyond.

Autistic Individuals Excel In Detail Orientation and Pattern Recognition

Advantages in Tasks Like Mechanical Reasoning and Invention

Baron-Cohen's work suggests autistic individuals often have an innate advantage in understanding systems and pattern recognition. This focus on detail enables them to decipher the underlying rules that govern systems, such as an iPhone's operating system or the mechanics inside a toaster. Autistic children, for instance, might spend hours building complex Lego structures or deconstructing household objects to understand their operation, thus exhibiting mechanical reasoning—an early indication of potential abilities in systemizing or engineering.

Such detailed focus, while it may result in losing some information at a general level, is often a trade-off for being particularly attentive to variations in those details, which is advantageous in specific tasks and environments. Baron-Cohen acknowledges that girls with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) display a heightened interest in systems, which correlates with more autistic traits and fundamentally ties to abilities in detail orientation and pattern recognition.

Invention & Complex Tool Building Driven by Systemizing Cognitive Style

"If-then" Logic May Drive Breakthroughs in Engineering and Music

Baron-Cohen discusses the human capacity for generative invention, distinguishing the simple tool use seen in other species from the complex and generative invention process of human beings, which relies heavily on "if-then" logic. This logic, he argues, can be traced back to the invention of complex tools such as the bow and arrow approximately 70,000 years ago. Such innovation requires understanding the properties of the materials involved and the logic of their potential combinations to achieve desired outcomes.

Highlighting an example, Baron-Cohen notes an ...

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Links Between Systemizing, Tool Use, and Human Invention

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Systemizing cognitive styles, as described by Simon Baron-Cohen, relate to a person's inclination towards understanding and creating systems, rules, and patterns. Individuals with a systemizing cognitive style tend to excel in tasks that involve analyzing and building complex systems, such as engineering or music composition. This cognitive style is often associated with a high attention to detail, pattern recognition, and logical reasoning, which can lead to innovative breakthroughs in various fields. Autistic individuals, who frequently exhibit a strong systemizing cognitive style, may demonstrate exceptional abilities in areas that require meticulous attention to system rules and patterns.
  • In the context of autism, detail orientation refers to a heightened focus on specific elements or parts of a whole, often leading to a deep understanding of intricate details. Pattern recognition involves the ability to identify and make sense of recurring structures or sequences within information or stimuli. Autistic individuals may excel in these areas, showcasing a strong inclination towards noticing and processing detailed information and patterns in their environment. This heightened attention to detail and pattern recognition can influence how autistic individuals interact with and understand the world around them.
  • In the context of "if-then" logic driving breakthroughs in engineering and music, it signifies the logical process where a specific action or condition (the "if" part) leads to a predictable outcome or result (the "then" part). This logical framework is crucial in engineering as it helps in designing systems and predicting their behavior based on certain inputs or conditions. In music, "if-then" logic can be seen in composition techniques where following a particular musical pattern or rule leads to a specific musical outcome or effect. This logical approach underpins problem-solving and creativity in both engineering and music domains.
  • In the context of tool use, simple tool use in other species typically involves using objects directly as tools without much modification. In contrast, complex tool building in humans involves creating tools through a series of deliberate steps, often requiring planning, foresight, and understanding of materials and their properties. This distinction highlights the advanced cognitive abilities and problem-solving skills that humans possess compared to other species when it comes to tool use and creation.
  • Temple Grandin is a well-known advocate fo ...

Counterarguments

  • While autistic individuals may excel in detail orientation and pattern recognition, not all autistic individuals will necessarily have these strengths, as there is a wide spectrum of abilities within the autism community.
  • The innate advantage in understanding systems and pattern recognition attributed to autistic individuals may not account for the role of environmental factors and education in developing these skills.
  • The focus on mechanical reasoning in autistic children may overlook the diverse range of interests and abilities that autistic children can have beyond systemizing tasks.
  • The correlation between girls with CAH and heightened interest in systems may not imply causation, and other factors could contribute to these interests.
  • The idea that abilities in detail orientation and pattern recognition correlate with more autistic traits could be seen as an oversimplification of the complex nature of autism.
  • The assertion that invention and complex tool building are driven by a systemizing cognitive style may not fully acknowledge the role of creativity, collaboration, and other cognitive styles in the invention process.
  • The reliance on "if-then" logic for human generative invention may not encompass the full range of cognitive processes involved in creative problem-solving and innovation.
  • The example of Temple Grandin may not r ...

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562. What Do We Actually Know About Autism? | Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

Role of Empathy in Malevolence and Cruelty

Simon Baron-Cohen elaborates on the complex interplay between empathy, or the lack thereof, and the inclination toward callousness, cruelty, and malevolence.

Empathy's Absence Breeds Callousness and Cruelty

Baron-Cohen depicts two-year-olds' natural inclination to alleviate another's suffering, demonstrating innate empathetic responses that counteract malevolence and cruelty. He distinguishes between cognitive empathy, the ability to understand another’s thoughts and feelings, and affective empathy, the emotional response to another's pain.

Psychopaths: Strong Cognitive Empathy, Reduced Affective Empathy

Psychopaths might possess strong cognitive empathy, allowing them to comprehend others' feelings, but significantly reduced affective empathy, which leads to a lack of concern for others' well-being. This is evidenced by psychopaths' ability to deceive others for their own gain without moral regard. Conversely, autistic individuals may demonstrate the opposite profile: good affective empathy but struggles with cognitive empathy.

Delight in Cruelty Isn't Fully Explained by Lack of Empathy

Jordan Peterson and Simon Baron-Cohen discuss how a mere absence of empathy might not fully account for instances of positive cruelty; knowing someone's emotional state doesn't necessarily result in compassionate responses. They introduce the concept of “schadenfreude,” or taking pleasure in another’s misfortune, and discuss how factors like the competition for status or attention, and the feeling of elevation with higher status or more power, can drive behavior beyond empathy itself. Peterson notes that power as an adaptive strategy can lead to choosing domination over reciprocity and cooperation, and in some instances, individuals may maintain a cruel disposition due to a fixation on self-centered goals.

Psychopathy and antisocial behavior could be viewed as a form of delayed emotional maturation, where individuals continue self-centered and aggressive be ...

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Role of Empathy in Malevolence and Cruelty

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The relationship between empathy and malevolence is intricate. Empathy involves understanding and sharing others' emotions, while malevolence is the desire to harm others. The absence of empathy can contribute to callous and cruel behavior, but malevolence isn't solely explained by a lack of empathy. Factors like power dynamics, competition, and personal goals can also influence malevolent actions.
  • Cognitive empathy involves understanding another person's thoughts and emotions from their perspective. Affective empathy, on the other hand, is the emotional response one feels in reaction to another person's emotions or experiences. Psychopaths may exhibit strong cognitive empathy but lack affective empathy, leading to a disconnect between understanding others' feelings and genuinely caring about them.
  • Schadenfreude is a German term that describes the pleasure derived from someone else's misfortune. It plays a role in cruelty by highlighting how individuals can find joy or satisfaction in witnessing others suffer, even if they understand the pain the other person is experiencing. This concept suggests that cruelty can stem not just from a lack of empathy but also from complex psychological dynamics related to competition, power dynamics, and personal goals. Understanding schadenfreude helps shed light on the multifaceted nature of human behavior, especially in contexts where cruelty and malevolence manifest.
  • Psychopathy as a form of delayed emotional maturation suggests that individuals with psychopathic traits may exhibit behaviors typically seen in less mature individuals, such as impulsivity and self-centeredness, due to a lack of emotional development. This concept implies that psychopaths may not have fully developed the emotional regulation and empathy that most people acquire as they grow older. It highlights the idea that psychopaths may be stuck at an earlier stage of emotional development, leading to their characteristic callous and manipulative behaviors. This perspective offers a framework to understand psychopathic behavior through the lens of emotional growth and maturity.
  • Empathy can be influenced by genetic factors, meaning certain genes may play a role in how empa ...

Counterarguments

  • While two-year-olds may show empathetic responses, it's also argued that empathy is a skill that develops and matures over time, and what appears as empathy in young children could also be a response to distress rather than a true understanding of another's emotional state.
  • The dichotomy between cognitive and affective empathy is not always clear-cut; some researchers argue that the two are deeply intertwined and cannot be so easily separated in practice.
  • The assertion that psychopaths have strong cognitive empathy is contested; some studies suggest that they may have deficits in both cognitive and affective empathy.
  • The idea that autistic individuals struggle with cognitive empathy but not affective empathy is an oversimplification and does not represent the full spectrum of experiences of autistic people.
  • The role of competition for status and power in cruelty can be nuanced, with some arguing that these factors can also lead to positive outcomes like innovation and societal progress.
  • The concept of power as purely an adaptive strategy for domination is challenged by theories that emphasize the role of power in responsibility and leadership for the greater good.
  • The notion of delayed emotional maturation in psychopathy and antisocial behavior is a simplification and does not account for the complex interplay of biological, psychological, and environmental factors.
  • The explanation of criminal behavior solely through differ ...

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