548. Jordan Peterson Takes Your Call: Advice, Mental Health, Family Dynamics | Mikhaila Fuller
In this episode of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Jordan Peterson and Mikhaila Fuller examine relationship dynamics, particularly age gaps in romantic partnerships and the complexities of polyamory. They discuss how relationships with significant age differences often involve considerations of stability and resources, while polyamorous arrangements face distinct challenges related to compatibility and negotiation skills.
The conversation extends to family dynamics, parenting strategies, and methods for finding purpose in life. Peterson and Fuller explore how to maintain relationships when family members make unconventional choices, the importance of creating stable environments for children, and practical approaches to goal-setting and personal development. They share insights on implementing plans despite imperfection and viewing setbacks as opportunities for growth.
This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the May 19, 2025 episode of the The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
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1-Page Summary
Romantic Relationships and Dating
In a discussion between Jordan Peterson and Mikhaila Fuller, they explore various aspects of modern relationships, focusing on age gaps and polyamory. Peterson notes that relationships with age gaps of 10-15 years are common, particularly with older men and younger women, explaining that mature men often offer stability, resources, and emotional maturity that many women seek. However, he cautions that significant age gaps require careful consideration of power dynamics.
On the topic of polyamory, both Peterson and Fuller express skepticism. Peterson argues that polyamorous relationships are inherently unstable, requiring complex negotiation skills that most people lack. He emphasizes that monogamy has evolved as a societal norm to provide stability for children and families, suggesting that polyamorous relationships often prioritize novelty over compatibility.
Family Dynamics and Parenting
Peterson and Fuller address the challenges of maintaining family relationships when children make unconventional lifestyle choices. They recommend setting clear boundaries while keeping communication channels open when dealing with estrangement. Fuller emphasizes the importance of leaving the door open for reconciliation, while Peterson suggests developing a "social contract" that respects both parties' perspectives.
Regarding parenting, Peterson stresses the importance of raising resilient, virtuous children who can navigate an unstable world. Fuller adds that creating a stable, loving family environment provides children with the foundation they need to face life's challenges confidently.
Finding Purpose and Meaning in Life
Peterson introduces tools like the Future Authoring Program to help clarify goals and values, while Fuller explains how larger goals can make immediate tasks feel more meaningful. They both emphasize the importance of regularly re-evaluating and adjusting plans based on new information and opportunities.
Peterson advocates for taking action rather than waiting for perfection, suggesting that implementing an imperfect plan allows for learning and improvement. He recommends a "conservative radicalism" approach: taking cautious steps rather than making drastic changes unless the potential benefits clearly outweigh the risks. Both hosts stress the importance of viewing setbacks as learning opportunities rather than failures.
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Counterarguments
- While relationships with age gaps can be common, they are not universally accepted or successful, and some argue that they can perpetuate stereotypes and power imbalances.
- The idea that women seek older men for stability and resources can be seen as a gender stereotype that does not account for individual differences and preferences.
- Some argue that polyamory, when practiced with consent and communication, can be just as stable as monogamy and that instability is not inherent to the relationship structure itself.
- The claim that monogamy evolved to provide stability for children and families is contested by those who point to various cultures historically and currently practicing non-monogamous relationships successfully.
- The concept of a "social contract" in family dynamics may not be applicable or effective in all situations, especially where there is abuse or deep-seated conflict.
- The emphasis on raising resilient, virtuous children might overlook the importance of acknowledging and validating children's emotions, including vulnerability and uncertainty.
- The Future Authoring Program and similar tools may not be universally effective, as individuals have different learning styles and may find purpose and meaning through other methods.
- The idea of "conservative radicalism" may not suit everyone, as some situations might require more immediate and radical action to achieve significant change.
- Viewing setbacks as learning opportunities is a positive approach, but it's important to acknowledge that some failures can have significant emotional and practical consequences that are not easily reframed as learning experiences.
Actionables
- You can create a personal "relationship roadmap" to navigate age-gap dynamics by listing the qualities you value in a partner and the potential challenges you might face with different age gaps. For example, if you value emotional maturity, note how this might be impacted by an age difference and plan ways to address any imbalances.
- Develop a "family charter" with your loved ones to enhance communication and set boundaries, similar to a social contract. This document would outline everyone's expectations, responsibilities, and the process for resolving conflicts, ensuring that all family members feel heard and respected.
- Start a "resilience journal" for your children to track their growth in overcoming challenges and building virtues. Encourage them to write about their experiences, what they learned, and how they solved problems, which can serve as a reference for them to see their progress and for you to guide them through future obstacles.
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Romantic Relationships and Dating
Jordan Peterson and Mikhaila Fuller delve into the dynamics of dating and relationships, exploring the viability of age gaps and expressing skepticism about polyamory.
Age Gaps Can Work, but Need Mature Partners and Norm Consideration
Peterson and Fuller discuss the commonality and cultural acceptance of relationships involving older men and younger women, emphasizing the need for maturity and consideration of societal norms.
Age Gaps (10-15 Years) Are Common, Aligning With Cross-Cultural Preferences For Women to Date Older Men
Jordan Peterson recognizes that relationships where the man is older by 10-15 years are not unusual. He remarks on cross-cultural preferences that align with women dating older men, typically by about four years. Mikhaila Fuller mentions that a pairing between a 25-year-old woman and a 40- or 45-year-old man makes sense, indicating an acceptance of these age gaps.
Mature Men Offer Stability, Resources, and Emotional Maturity, but Large Age Gaps Require Careful Navigation of Power Imbalances
Peterson explains that women often seek out mature men who can provide stability, particularly when they’re pregnant or raising young children. Mature men are expected to be productive, generous, and emotionally mature. Peterson adds that as men get older, they acquire more knowledge, broader social networks, competence, and resources, potentially making them more attractive to younger women seeking maturity.
Younger Partners Seeking Older Partners May Signal a Desire for a Parental Figure or a Red Flag
Peterson cautions that substantial age gaps must be navigated carefully and raises the possibility that a significantly younger woman might seek a paternal figure, especially if she has lacked such a figure in her life.
Polyamorous Relationships Violate Social Norms
Peterson and Fuller debate the concept of polyamory, pointing out the challenges and potential dangers it poses to societal norms and individual relationships.
Polyamory Is Unstable, Requiring Complex Negotiation Skills Most Lack
Peterson is critical of polyamorous relationships, suggesting they are inherently unstable due to complexities like sexual jealousy and the challenges of managing multiple relationship ...
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Romantic Relationships and Dating
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Counterarguments
- Age gaps in relationships, while common, can also perpetuate stereotypes and power imbalances that may not be conducive to a healthy partnership.
- The assumption that mature men inherently offer stability and emotional maturity can be challenged, as maturity and stability are individual traits not solely determined by age or gender.
- Relationships with large age gaps can be healthy and equitable if both partners are consenting adults and communicate openly, rather than being inherently problematic.
- The desire for older partners does not necessarily signal a search for a parental figure; it can be based on individual preferences and compatibility.
- Polyamory, when practiced with consent and open communication, can be a valid relationship structure and can work for some people, challenging the notion that it is inherently unstable.
- ...
Actionables
- You can reflect on your relationship dynamics by journaling about power balance, especially if you're in or considering an age-gap relationship. Write down instances where you feel empowered or disempowered and discuss these observations with your partner to ensure both parties feel equal and respected.
- Create a "relationship roadmap" with your partner if you're exploring non-traditional relationship structures like polyamory. This should include clear communication guidelines, boundaries, and what each of you wants to gain from the relationship, which can help navigate the complexities and maintain stability.
- If you're ...
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Family Dynamics and Parenting
Family dynamics and parenting are complex areas that are further complicated by unconventional lifestyle choices by children, as well as the broader goal to instill resilience and values in an unpredictable world.
Navigating Estrangement From Children Over Lifestyle Differences
Jordan Peterson and Mikhaila Fuller engage in a discussion about the challenges parents face when their children make unconventional choices such as engaging in polyamorous relationships.
Children's Unconventional Choices, Like Polyamory, Pose a Dilemma: Maintain Relationships or Cut Ties
A caller has shared their struggle with estrangement from their son, who entered into a polyamorous relationship after helping a woman in an abusive situation. The caller and their spouse find it difficult to accept their son's choice, leading them to a crossroads: either to maintain the relationship with their son despite their discomfort or to cut ties completely.
Approach Estrangement By Setting Boundaries, Expressing Concern, and Leaving the Door Open for Reconciliation
Peterson and Fuller suggest that when facing such dilemmas, parents should consider setting boundaries while expressing their concerns clearly. Peterson advises maintaining a dialogue with the estranged child, setting rules for engagement, and remaining polite. Fuller extends this conversation to the importance of leaving the door open for reconciliation, signifying a hope that the relationship can be mended in the future.
Forging a "Social Contract" With Estranged Family Requires Negotiating New Norms
Additionally, Peterson points out that unconventional choices challenge standard family dynamics and lead families to consider how to adapt. A "social contract" may need to be negotiated with estranged family members, requiring new norms that respect both the parents’ and the child's perspectives.
Instilling Values and Prepping Children For the Future
Amidst cultural shifts and instability, the role of parents in preparing their children to face future challenges becomes even more crucial.
In an Unstable World, Parents Must Raise Resilient, Virtuous Children to N ...
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Family Dynamics and Parenting
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Counterarguments
- While maintaining relationships is important, it's also crucial to recognize that adult children have the autonomy to make their own life choices, and parents may need to focus on acceptance rather than setting boundaries that could be perceived as controlling.
- Estrangement can sometimes be a healthy decision for all parties involved if the relationship is toxic or if the differences in values create an irreparable rift.
- The concept of a "social contract" within a family might be too formal and not accurately reflect the organic nature of family relationships, which are often built on unconditional love and acceptance rather than negotiation.
- Resilience and virtue are important, but it's also essential to teach children flexibility and open-mindedness to adapt to a world that is constantly changing and may not always align with the values they were raised with.
- While a stable and loving family environment is beneficial, it's important to acknowledge that many successful and resilient individuals come from less than ideal family situations and that adversity can also be a ...
Actionables
- You can initiate a family book club focusing on themes of resilience and virtue to foster meaningful discussions. Choose books that explore characters facing moral dilemmas or societal changes, and schedule regular family meetings to discuss the takeaways. This encourages open dialogue about personal values and decision-making in a changing world.
- Develop a "family constitution" with your children that outlines shared values and expectations. This document can serve as a guide for behavior and decision-making, helping children understand the importance of resilience and virtue. Review and update it together annually to reflect any changes in family dynamics or individual growth.
- Create a "reconciliation kit" ...
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Finding Purpose and Meaning in Life
Jordan Peterson and Mikhaila Fuller discuss strategies to find purpose and meaning in life, emphasizing the value of goal-setting, embracing imperfection, and adapting to change.
Regularly Re-evaluate Vision and Plans
Both Peterson and Fuller cover the importance of having clear goals and regularly assessing them.
Tools Like the Future Authoring Program Clarify Goals, Values, and Strategies for a Meaningful Life
Jordan Peterson suggests the use of tools like the Future Authoring Program, which helps individuals articulate a vision for their future, including aspirations for a family, career, education, personal health, and community involvement. He explains the program is designed to determine if one's current trajectory is positive and if it's steering away from negative outcomes.
Plans Adapt Based On New Information and Opportunities
Fuller elaborates on how a more extensive goal can make immediate, less-desirable tasks feel more significant as steps toward that goal. Implementing a plan allows for learning, and periodic adjustments to that plan are advised. Fuller has found that revisiting goals yearly led to recognizing more achievements than initially anticipated.
Peterson highlights that setting goals transforms perception, allowing one to identify opportunities, obstacles, and tools. He underscores that plans should adapt as one progresses and as situations change.
Feeling Stuck? Consult Others and Take Small Steps
Peterson emphasizes the value of feedback and advises consulting with others when feeling uncertain about a plan. He suggests that a "bad" first draft of a plan is a starting point and to learn by discussing it with others and implementing it. Fuller agrees, stating that even a detailed plan can be immensely helpful because it breaks down the larger vision into manageable parts.
Risk-Taking and Learning From Mistakes Are Crucial for Growth
Peterson argues for action and learning from the imperfections of one's plans rather than waiting indefinitely for perfection.
Perfection Should Not Hinder Progress - An Imperfect Plan Is Better Than Waiting For Perfection
According to Peterson, implementing a flawed plan ...
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Finding Purpose and Meaning in Life
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Counterarguments
- Regular re-evaluation of vision and plans may lead to a lack of consistency and can cause confusion or a sense of being unanchored if not balanced with commitment to certain core goals.
- Tools like the Future Authoring Program may not be suitable for everyone, as some individuals may find structured programs restrictive or may not align with their personal learning style.
- Over-adaptation of plans based on new information and opportunities can result in a loss of focus and can dilute original intentions, leading to a cycle of constant planning without execution.
- Consulting others when feeling stuck can be valuable, but it can also lead to over-reliance on external validation or advice, potentially undermining one's confidence in personal decision-making.
- Taking small steps is a practical approach, but it may not always be the most efficient or effective method for achieving certain ambitious goals that require bold action.
- Risk-taking is important for growth, but it must be balanced with a realistic assessment of one's capabilities and resources to avoid unnecessary or catastrophic failures.
- An imperfect plan might be better than no plan, but acting on ...
Actionables
- You can create a "Vision Triage" board where you list your current goals, values, and strategies on sticky notes and reposition them weekly to reflect their relevance and priority. This visual and physical interaction with your plans helps you stay flexible and adapt to new information. For example, if you learn a new skill that could advance your career, you might move a related goal higher up on the board.
- Start a "Small Steps Accountability" group with friends or colleagues where each member commits to taking one small action toward their goals each week. During weekly meet-ups, discuss the actions taken, the outcomes, and the next steps. This encourages taking action, even when feeling stuck, and provides a support network for risk-taking and learning from mistakes.
- Implement a "Progress Diary" where you record daily entries of actions t ...
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