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541. Why We Stopped Progressing | Peter Thiel

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In this episode of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Peter Thiel explores the uneven pace of technological progress, noting how digital technologies advance rapidly while physical sciences and engineering have slowed. Thiel and Peterson examine various factors behind this stagnation, including societal attitudes toward technology, regulatory challenges, and shifts in cultural priorities from external exploration to internal reflection.

The conversation then delves into broader philosophical themes, including Christianity's historical relationship with scientific development and its role in providing a moral framework for technological advancement. The discussion touches on human social dynamics, particularly the role of imitation in development and cultural transmission, before exploring different interpretations of sacrifice—from rational delayed gratification to religious perspectives on self-sacrifice for eternal rewards.

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541. Why We Stopped Progressing | Peter Thiel

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541. Why We Stopped Progressing | Peter Thiel

1-Page Summary

Scientific and Technological Progress and Stagnation

Peter Thiel discusses the contrasting pace of progress between digital technologies and traditional scientific fields, noting a concerning disparity. While digital advancement continues rapidly, Thiel observes that physical progress in areas like physics, engineering, and medicine has slowed significantly, pointing out that even travel speeds haven't increased in 50 years.

Thiel identifies several factors contributing to this stagnation, including society's wariness of technology's destructive potential, a cultural shift from outer exploration to inner reflection, and increased regulation. Jordan Peterson adds that the lag in legal frameworks since the 1970s has further complicated innovation.

Christianity's Role in Scientific Development

The discussion then explores the historical relationship between Christianity and science. Peterson notes that early scientific exploration often occurred in Christian monasteries, which later evolved into universities. Thiel explains how Christian theology, with its belief in an intelligible cosmos, provided the philosophical foundation for scientific inquiry.

However, as science matured, it began separating from its religious roots. Thiel suggests this disconnection may have contributed to today's increasingly nihilistic and apocalyptic views of scientific advancement, as technology became unanchored from its moral foundations.

Imitation and Social Dynamics

The conversation shifts to examining imitation's role in human development. Peterson explains how children learn social norms through imitative play, while Thiel, referencing Gerard, suggests that philosophers may have underestimated imitation's influence on human behavior. They discuss how imitation can be both beneficial for cultural transmission and potentially destructive when it devolves into status competition without transcendent values.

The Nature of Sacrifice

The discussion concludes with an exploration of sacrifice's meaning. Peterson describes sacrifice as the mature ability to regulate present behavior for future benefit. Thiel questions whether rational delayed gratification truly constitutes sacrifice, using examples like pursuing PhDs in challenging circumstances. They examine biblical perspectives, with Thiel drawing on René Girard's interpretation of Christianity as inherently anti-sacrificial, while Peterson suggests that Christianity's core involves self-sacrifice for eternal rewards.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Thiel is concerned about the imbalance in the pace of advancement between digital technologies and traditional scientific fields like physics and medicine. He highlights how digital progress has been rapid while physical progress has notably slowed down, such as the lack of significant advancements in travel speeds over the past few decades. Thiel attributes this disparity to factors like societal attitudes towards technology, cultural shifts, and increased regulations impacting physical scientific innovation.
  • Societal wariness of technology can lead to increased caution and regulation in scientific fields, potentially hindering rapid progress. Concerns about the ethical implications and unintended consequences of technological advancements may influence funding priorities and research directions. This caution can create barriers to innovation and experimentation, impacting the pace of scientific development. Balancing the benefits and risks of technology is crucial for addressing societal concerns while fostering scientific advancement.
  • Christian theology historically provided a philosophical foundation for scientific inquiry by promoting the idea of an intelligible cosmos governed by rational laws. Early scientific exploration often occurred in Christian institutions like monasteries, which later evolved into universities. This relationship between Christianity and science helped shape the development of scientific thought and methodology. Over time, as science matured, it began to separate from its religious roots, leading to a more nuanced and complex relationship between the two domains.
  • When science separates from its religious roots, it can lead to a loss of moral guidance and ethical frameworks in technological advancements. This disconnection may result in a lack of consideration for broader societal implications and values in scientific progress. It can also contribute to a shift towards more nihilistic or apocalyptic views of technology, as the ethical boundaries that were traditionally informed by religious beliefs may become less prominent. Additionally, the separation can impact the philosophical foundations that historically influenced scientific inquiry, potentially altering the direction and purpose of scientific exploration.
  • Imitation plays a crucial role in human development by shaping social norms and behaviors through observational learning. Children learn and internalize societal values and practices through imitation, which aids in cultural transmission. Imitation can influence both positive and negative behaviors, impacting individual and collective actions. Understanding the power of imitation helps explain how social dynamics and norms are established and maintained in communities.
  • Sacrifice involves giving up something valuable for a greater purpose or future benefit. Rational delayed gratification is the act of forgoing immediate rewards for long-term gains through thoughtful decision-making. Sacrifice often requires delaying gratification by making choices that prioritize future outcomes over immediate desires. In the context of sacrifice, rational delayed gratification involves consciously choosing to forego instant satisfaction for a more significant or enduring reward.
  • Christianity's stance on sacrifice can be interpreted in various ways. Some view it as self-sacrifice for eternal rewards, emphasizing the idea of giving up something valuable for a greater spiritual purpose. Others, like René Girard, see Christianity as anti-sacrificial, suggesting that the faith's core teachings aim to move away from traditional sacrificial practices. These differing interpretations reflect the complexity of how sacrifice is understood within the context of Christian beliefs and teachings.

Counterarguments

  • While digital technologies have seen rapid progress, it's arguable that fields like medicine have also seen significant advancements, such as in genomics and personalized medicine, which may not be as immediately visible as digital innovations.
  • Travel speeds have not increased for commercial airlines, but this overlooks the development of other forms of transportation, such as private space travel and hyperloop technology, which are in various stages of research and development.
  • Increased regulation can be seen as a response to the complexity and potential risks associated with modern technologies, aiming to ensure public safety and ethical standards rather than simply causing stagnation.
  • The lag in legal frameworks could also be interpreted as a necessary period of adjustment where laws are thoughtfully crafted to keep pace with new technologies, rather than a straightforward impediment to innovation.
  • The historical relationship between Christianity and science is complex, and while Christian institutions played a role in early scientific exploration, other cultures and religions have also contributed significantly to scientific development.
  • The separation of science from religious roots can be viewed as a natural evolution towards a secular and empirical approach to understanding the world, which has its own merits and does not necessarily lead to nihilism.
  • Imitation's role in human development is multifaceted, and while it is important, other factors such as creativity, critical thinking, and individual learning experiences also play crucial roles in shaping behavior and cultural transmission.
  • The concept of sacrifice can be interpreted in various ways, and what constitutes a sacrifice can differ greatly among individuals and cultures, making it a more nuanced discussion than simply delayed gratification.
  • Some interpretations of Christianity emphasize the sacrificial aspect, focusing on the redemptive value of sacrifice, which contrasts with Girard's view of Christianity as anti-sacrificial.
  • The idea that Christianity involves self-sacrifice for eternal rewards is one interpretation, but other theological perspectives within Christianity may emphasize different aspects of the faith, such as grace, community, or social justice.

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541. Why We Stopped Progressing | Peter Thiel

Theories and Perceptions of Scientific/Technological Progress and Stagnation

In a discussion on the progress of science and technology, Peter Thiel outlines the advancements and perceived stagnation from the Renaissance through the 20th century, raising concerns about the current state of scientific discovery and technological innovation.

Slowdown in Physical Progress Compared To Digital Realm

Peter Thiel points out a stark contrast between the ongoing progress in digital technologies and the slower pace in more traditional scientific and engineering fields, expressing concern about physical stagnation relative to digital advancement.

Progress Slow in Physics, Engineering, Medicine; Digital Tech Advances Rapidly

In detailing the slow pace of physical innovation, Thiel recalls his undergraduate years at Stanford University in the late 1980s, when entering fields such as physics, chemistry, mechanical engineering, and nuclear engineering was considered less promising. He contrasts this with the vibrant world of electrical engineering, supported by its ties to semiconductors and the emerging digital landscape.

Thiel asserts that physical progress in fields like physics, engineering, and medicine has decelerated, highlighting that travel speeds haven't increased in the last 50 years. This divergence in progress between the digital world and the physical world raises concerns about the overall trajectory of technological advancement.

Disconnect Between Digital Progress and Physical Stagnation Is Concerning

Thiel suggests that the disparity between digital advancement and physical stagnation might contribute to broader societal and economic issues. The rapid enhancements in AI, for example, which largely pertain to the digital realm, have their physical implications when integrated with devices such as drones. This blending of digital and physical advancements may be cause for a reassessment of the perceived disconnection.

Causes and Factors to Perceived Stagnation

Delving into why scientific and technological progress might be slowing, Thiel brings up the wariness toward the field due to its apocalyptic potential, the focus on inner rather than outer exploration, and the stultifying effect of increased regulation and risk-aversion.

Fear and Skepticism About Apocalyptic Potential of Science and Technology

Thiel introduces the idea of an apocalyptic dimension to science and technology, stemming from fears over their dual-use potential in fields such as military applications. He suggests that moments like the development of nuclear weapons at Los Alamos represented the high point of the optimistic Baconian vision and that subsequent doubts about science and technology led to skepticism about continuous progress and resistance to further exploration of the "outside world."

Shift From Exploration to Spirituality, Psychology, and Identity Politics

Thiel proposes that after the Apollo program, the cultural focus shifted from outer space exploration to reflections on inward journeys, spawning an era marked by emphasis on spirituality, psychology, and identity politics. This transition may have played a role in the slowing of material progress, as society moved away from the tangible to the abstract, from exploration to introspection.

Increased Regulation, Bureaucracy, and Risk-A ...

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Theories and Perceptions of Scientific/Technological Progress and Stagnation

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Peter Thiel is a prominent entrepreneur, venture capitalist, and author known for his views on technology and innovation. He co-founded PayPal and was an early investor in companies like Facebook. Thiel has expressed concerns about the pace of physical innovation compared to digital advancements, highlighting issues such as regulatory challenges and societal shifts impacting scientific and technological progress.
  • The "apocalyptic potential" of science and technology refers to the fear that advancements in these fields could lead to catastrophic outcomes, especially in terms of military applications like the development of powerful weapons. This concept highlights concerns about the dual-use nature of scientific discoveries, where technologies can have both beneficial and destructive uses. The reference to "apocalyptic potential" underscores the idea that certain scientific and technological breakthroughs have the capacity to bring about widespread harm or even existential threats to humanity. It reflects a cautionary perspective on the consequences of pushing the boundaries of knowledge without considering the potential risks and ethical implications.
  • The cultural shift from outer space exploration to spirituality, psychology, and identity politics reflects a transition in societal focus from scientific exploration to introspection and self-understanding. This change marked a shift towards exploring inner worlds and personal identities rather than outer space and physical frontiers. It suggests a move from tangible, outward exploration to abstract, inward reflection, impacting the priorities and interests of society. This shift may have influenced the pace of material progress as attention turned from external advancements to internal contemplation.
  • Increased regulation, bureaucracy, and risk-aversion can stifle scientific and technological innovation by creating barriers to experimentation and progress. Regulations ma ...

Counterarguments

  • The perception of stagnation in physical sciences may be due to the nature of scientific progress, which can be incremental and less visible compared to the more apparent leaps in digital technology.
  • Advances in medicine, such as gene editing, immunotherapy, and personalized medicine, suggest that there is significant progress, even if it is not as conspicuous as in the digital realm.
  • The argument that cultural shifts toward spirituality and introspection have slowed material progress could be countered by the view that these shifts also lead to holistic approaches to innovation that consider ethical and societal impacts.
  • The increase in regulation and bureaucracy can be seen as a response to the complexity and potential risks of modern science and technology, aiming to ensure safety and ethical standards.
  • The argument that digital advancements are perceived as safe and inert overlooks the significant concerns about privacy, cybersecurity, and the societal impact of digital technologies.
  • The notion that regulatory frameworks hinder innovation could be balanced by the argument that they also provide a structure within which responsible and sustainable innovation can occur.
  • The focus on the lack of increased travel speeds as a measure of stagnation ignor ...

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541. Why We Stopped Progressing | Peter Thiel

Cultural, Historical, and Religious Factors Underlying Scientific Progress

Peter Thiel and Jordan Peterson assess the integral role of Christianity in shaping the Scientific Revolution and how the ensuing separation of religion and science may have led to current existential apprehensions about science and technology.

Christianity and Judeo-Christian Influence on the Scientific Revolution

Christian Monasteries and Universities Linked To Early Science Origins

Thiel and Peterson reflect on the historical intersection of Christianity with the early science. Peterson notes that much early scientific exploration occurred in monasteries, which later evolved into universities, indicating Christianity's foundational role in the birth of scientific study. These institutions provided the stability and structure necessary for systematic investigation and learning.

Christian Ideas on Cosmos Intelligibility and Knowledge's Value May Have Grounded the Scientific Worldview

Thiel discusses how Christian theology, specifically its notion that the cosmos is intelligible and that diligent inquiry yields useful knowledge, laid the groundwork for the scientific worldview. These faith-based axioms assumed that understanding the natural world was tantamount to deciphering God's creation. The intertwined relationship between science and Christianity may have fostered a way to create a 'heaven on earth', either complementing or substituting religious belief.

Moreover, Thiel implies that the search for natural explanations, demanded once scapegoats were no longer believed in, contributed to the burgeoning of science—thus losing its connection to moral and philosophical roots.

Fracturing of Religious-Scientific Relationship and Consequences

Scientific View Lost Moral, Philosophical Grounding

As science matured and skepticism grew, a shift occurred wherein scientific endeavor began questioning and potentially discarding the religious ethos it was once grounded in. This detachment, perhaps catalyzed during Francis Bacon's era, led to science's disconnected evolution from its moral and philosophical underpinnings.

Thiel adds that Jesus Christ initiated the unraveling of religious and social institutions, proposing an irreversible pivot away ...

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Cultural, Historical, and Religious Factors Underlying Scientific Progress

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Counterarguments

  • The role of Islamic scholars and the Golden Age of Islamic Science in preserving and advancing knowledge during the Middle Ages is often underappreciated in discussions about the origins of the Scientific Revolution.
  • The contributions of ancient civilizations, such as the Greeks and Romans, to the development of scientific thought and methodology should not be overlooked.
  • The Scientific Revolution was a complex process influenced by many factors beyond religion, including economic, political, and technological changes.
  • The idea that science lost its moral and philosophical grounding can be contested by pointing out that ethical considerations continue to play a significant role in scientific discourse and practice.
  • The portrayal of atheist liberals as anti-science is a generalization that does not accurately reflect the diverse views within liberal and atheist communities regarding science and technology.
  • The notion that science has "Luciferian" elements is a metaphorical and subjective interpretation that may not resonate with or be accepted by all individuals or groups.
  • The fear of technology's impact is not solely a product of the separation of science and religion; it can also stem from historical instances where technology has had n ...

Actionables

  • You can explore the historical relationship between religion and science by visiting a local university's special collections library. Many universities have historical documents and books that can give you a firsthand look at the interplay between religious thought and the development of scientific ideas. For example, you might find early scientific manuscripts that reference theological concepts, providing a tangible connection to the podcast's discussion.
  • Start a book club focused on the moral and philosophical dimensions of science. Choose books that delve into the ethical implications of scientific advancements, such as genetic engineering or artificial intelligence. This will encourage discussions about how modern science can integrate moral considerations, countering the perceived loss of philosophical grounding mentioned in the podcast.
  • Create a pers ...

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541. Why We Stopped Progressing | Peter Thiel

Psychological and Social Dynamics of Imitation and Competition

The conversational exchanges between Peter Thiel and Jordan Peterson delve into the complexity of imitation as it relates to human development, socialization, and the resulting challenges posed to society.

Imitation's Role in Human Development and Socialization

Imitation plays a crucial role in the social and psychological organization of individuals, especially during the early stages of development.

Children Learn Social Norms and Hierarchies Through Play

Jordan Peterson explains that children learn to navigate social norms and hierarchies through imitation, especially in play scenarios like "playing house." This form of imitation is not merely copying but involves dynamic learning and voluntary participation from each child, aligning their behaviors with a collective goal.

Imitation: A Human Capacity for Good (Culture) and Ill (Rivalries)

Peter Thiel references Gerard, suggesting that philosophers like Piaget and Aristotle may have underestimated the extent to which imitation influences human behavior. Thiel discusses the positive aspects of imitation, such as the transmission of culture and language learning. However, they also consider the potential for imitation to become harmful when it shifts from productive cultural transmission to envious rivalries.

Dangers of Imitation and Status Competition in Society

Without overarching values or goals, imitation can devolve into negative dynamics, with serious consequences for societal well-being and structure.

Without Transcendent Values, Imitative Desires Can Spiral Into Destructive Crowd Madness Dynamics

Imitative behavior can spiral out of control, leading to what Peter Thiel refers to as the "madness of crowds." Such dynamics can be toxic when people engage in status competitions that lack orientation towards transcendent, unifying values. Thiel posits that unchecked imitative desires can pr ...

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Psychological and Social Dynamics of Imitation and Competition

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The "madness of crowds" describes a phenomenon where collective behavior becomes irrational and chaotic due to unchecked imitative desires and lack of guiding values. This concept highlights how group dynamics can lead to destructive outcomes when individuals mimic each other without a unifying purpose. It warns of the dangers of societal destabilization and violence that can arise from unregulated imitative behavior in the absence of transcendent values. The term underscores the potential for negative spirals in behavior when imitation and competition devolve into harmful dynamics within a group or society.
  • Mimetic competition without a transcendent referent refers to competitive behavior driven by imitation and rivalry without a higher guiding principle or shared value system. In this context, "transcendent" typically denotes a unifying, overarching principle or belief that provides meaning and direction beyond individual desires. When such transcendent values are absent, competition can become purely imitative and driven by envy, potentially leading to destructive outcomes in society. This concept highlights the importance of shared values and guiding principles in shaping healthy competition and social dynamics.
  • In archaic societies, divinely prescribed laws and fixed roles served as foundational guidelines that regulated behavior and interactions among individuals. These societal structures provided a sense of order, stability, and predictability, reducing the likelihood of violent competition and imitation spiraling out of control. By adhering to these established norms and roles, individuals were guided in their actions, fostering a harmonious social environment and minimizing conflicts arising from unchecked rivalries. ...

Counterarguments

  • While imitation is important for development, it is not the only mechanism; other factors like exploration and creativity also play significant roles.
  • The idea that children learn social norms primarily through imitation could be challenged by emphasizing the role of explicit instruction and feedback from adults and peers.
  • The assertion that imitation is dynamic and voluntary might be too general; some forms of imitation, especially in young children, can be automatic and not necessarily goal-oriented.
  • Philosophers like Piaget and Aristotle may have recognized the complexity of imitation in different ways, and their work should not be underestimated without a thorough analysis of their contributions.
  • The transmission of culture through imitation could be complemented by the argument that innovation and deviation from norms are also necessary for cultural evolution.
  • The link between imitation and harmful rivalries might be oversimplified; other factors like personal insecurities, societal pressures, and resource scarcity can also contribute to rivalries.
  • The concept of "madness of crowds" could be balanced by discussing situations where collective behavior leads to positive social change or solidarity.
  • The idea that transcendent values are necessary to prevent destructive imitative behavior could be countered by pointing out that secular moral philosophies and ...

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541. Why We Stopped Progressing | Peter Thiel

The Concept of Sacrifice and Its Theological/Philosophical Significance

Jordan Peterson and Peter Thiel delve into the complexities of sacrifice, exploring its significance in both theological and philosophical contexts.

Ambiguity and Nuance of Sacrifice

Sacrifice: Irrational Self-Denial and Rational Self-Regulation for Long-Term Benefit

Peterson discusses sacrifice as the willingness to regulate present behavior for future stability, portraying it as a unique human ability. He sees it as a mature trait where postponement of immediate gratification paves the way for future goals. He gives the example that children learn to consider others' needs and not just their immediate desires when they learn to take turns, a form of sacrifice.

Thiel questions if actions that are rational, like saving money for a future purchase, can still be termed sacrificial. He points out that some sacrifices, such as the pursuit of PhDs by young right-wing academics that often result in unemployment, can be irrational. Thiel sees Peterson's refusal to buckle under academic pressures and give up his speaking freedom as a rational decision rather than a futile sacrifice.

Peterson reflects on his personal sacrifice, where he gave up his job and clinical career to maintain his freedom of speech, suggesting that it was in pursuit of a greater benefit. Thiel views Peterson's actions as rational, liberating him from the restrictive academic sphere to reach a broader audience.

Biblical Stories: The Paradox of Sacrifice Where Loss Leads to Gain

Peterson brings up the biblical story of Abraham and Isaac to demonstrate the enigmatic nature of sacrifice, where Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son ultimately leads to retaining him, questioning the essence of sacrifice. Thiel draws attention to Isaac's faith, which trusted that God would provide an alternative to sacrifice, thus picturing a God who is non-violent and loving, in contrast to the more traditional sacrificial deity.

The Christian Perspective on Sacrifice

Thiel draws from René Girard's perspective to illustrate the shift in Christian and Judaic narratives towards one viewed from the innocent victim, altering the theological implications of sacrifice. He interprets the Ten Commandments from a Girardian angle, with the emphasis on worshiping one God and not coveting as keys to breaking free from mimetic rivalry.

Furthermore, Thiel states Christianity, as interpreted by Girard, is inherently anti-sacrificial, turning away from the practice of sacrificial offerings. Thiel interprets ...

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The Concept of Sacrifice and Its Theological/Philosophical Significance

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Counterarguments

  • The rationality of sacrifice can be subjective and context-dependent; what seems rational to one person may appear irrational to another based on their values and circumstances.
  • The concept of sacrifice as a means to long-term benefit can be critiqued by pointing out that not all sacrifices lead to positive outcomes, and some may be misguided or based on incorrect assumptions.
  • The interpretation of biblical stories, such as that of Abraham and Isaac, can vary widely among different theologians and scholars, with some arguing that these stories should not be taken literally or may have different moral implications.
  • Thiel's view of Christianity as inherently anti-sacrificial could be contested by those who emphasize the sacrificial aspects of Christian doctrine, such as the concept of taking up one's cross or the sacrifices made by saints and martyrs.
  • The idea that Christ's self-sacrifice eliminates the need for further sacrifices might be challenged by those who believe that personal sacrifice remains an important ...

Actionables

  • You can reflect on your daily decisions by keeping a "Sacrifice Journal" where you note down choices that involve giving something up for a greater good. This practice will help you become more conscious of your long-term goals and the sacrifices you're willing to make to achieve them. For example, if you decide to skip a night out to save money for a family vacation, write it down and reflect on how this decision aligns with your values and long-term happiness.
  • Create a "Rational Sacrifice Framework" to evaluate potential sacrifices, like further education or career moves. This framework should include factors such as potential long-term benefits, alignment with personal values, and opportunity costs. When considering a PhD, for instance, use the framework to weigh the benefits of the degree against the risk of unemployment and the time commitment required.
  • Engage in a "Self-Sacr ...

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