In this episode of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Peter Thiel explores the uneven pace of technological progress, noting how digital technologies advance rapidly while physical sciences and engineering have slowed. Thiel and Peterson examine various factors behind this stagnation, including societal attitudes toward technology, regulatory challenges, and shifts in cultural priorities from external exploration to internal reflection.
The conversation then delves into broader philosophical themes, including Christianity's historical relationship with scientific development and its role in providing a moral framework for technological advancement. The discussion touches on human social dynamics, particularly the role of imitation in development and cultural transmission, before exploring different interpretations of sacrifice—from rational delayed gratification to religious perspectives on self-sacrifice for eternal rewards.
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Peter Thiel discusses the contrasting pace of progress between digital technologies and traditional scientific fields, noting a concerning disparity. While digital advancement continues rapidly, Thiel observes that physical progress in areas like physics, engineering, and medicine has slowed significantly, pointing out that even travel speeds haven't increased in 50 years.
Thiel identifies several factors contributing to this stagnation, including society's wariness of technology's destructive potential, a cultural shift from outer exploration to inner reflection, and increased regulation. Jordan Peterson adds that the lag in legal frameworks since the 1970s has further complicated innovation.
The discussion then explores the historical relationship between Christianity and science. Peterson notes that early scientific exploration often occurred in Christian monasteries, which later evolved into universities. Thiel explains how Christian theology, with its belief in an intelligible cosmos, provided the philosophical foundation for scientific inquiry.
However, as science matured, it began separating from its religious roots. Thiel suggests this disconnection may have contributed to today's increasingly nihilistic and apocalyptic views of scientific advancement, as technology became unanchored from its moral foundations.
The conversation shifts to examining imitation's role in human development. Peterson explains how children learn social norms through imitative play, while Thiel, referencing Gerard, suggests that philosophers may have underestimated imitation's influence on human behavior. They discuss how imitation can be both beneficial for cultural transmission and potentially destructive when it devolves into status competition without transcendent values.
The discussion concludes with an exploration of sacrifice's meaning. Peterson describes sacrifice as the mature ability to regulate present behavior for future benefit. Thiel questions whether rational delayed gratification truly constitutes sacrifice, using examples like pursuing PhDs in challenging circumstances. They examine biblical perspectives, with Thiel drawing on René Girard's interpretation of Christianity as inherently anti-sacrificial, while Peterson suggests that Christianity's core involves self-sacrifice for eternal rewards.
1-Page Summary
In a discussion on the progress of science and technology, Peter Thiel outlines the advancements and perceived stagnation from the Renaissance through the 20th century, raising concerns about the current state of scientific discovery and technological innovation.
Peter Thiel points out a stark contrast between the ongoing progress in digital technologies and the slower pace in more traditional scientific and engineering fields, expressing concern about physical stagnation relative to digital advancement.
In detailing the slow pace of physical innovation, Thiel recalls his undergraduate years at Stanford University in the late 1980s, when entering fields such as physics, chemistry, mechanical engineering, and nuclear engineering was considered less promising. He contrasts this with the vibrant world of electrical engineering, supported by its ties to semiconductors and the emerging digital landscape.
Thiel asserts that physical progress in fields like physics, engineering, and medicine has decelerated, highlighting that travel speeds haven't increased in the last 50 years. This divergence in progress between the digital world and the physical world raises concerns about the overall trajectory of technological advancement.
Thiel suggests that the disparity between digital advancement and physical stagnation might contribute to broader societal and economic issues. The rapid enhancements in AI, for example, which largely pertain to the digital realm, have their physical implications when integrated with devices such as drones. This blending of digital and physical advancements may be cause for a reassessment of the perceived disconnection.
Delving into why scientific and technological progress might be slowing, Thiel brings up the wariness toward the field due to its apocalyptic potential, the focus on inner rather than outer exploration, and the stultifying effect of increased regulation and risk-aversion.
Thiel introduces the idea of an apocalyptic dimension to science and technology, stemming from fears over their dual-use potential in fields such as military applications. He suggests that moments like the development of nuclear weapons at Los Alamos represented the high point of the optimistic Baconian vision and that subsequent doubts about science and technology led to skepticism about continuous progress and resistance to further exploration of the "outside world."
Thiel proposes that after the Apollo program, the cultural focus shifted from outer space exploration to reflections on inward journeys, spawning an era marked by emphasis on spirituality, psychology, and identity politics. This transition may have played a role in the slowing of material progress, as society moved away from the tangible to the abstract, from exploration to introspection.
Theories and Perceptions of Scientific/Technological Progress and Stagnation
Peter Thiel and Jordan Peterson assess the integral role of Christianity in shaping the Scientific Revolution and how the ensuing separation of religion and science may have led to current existential apprehensions about science and technology.
Thiel and Peterson reflect on the historical intersection of Christianity with the early science. Peterson notes that much early scientific exploration occurred in monasteries, which later evolved into universities, indicating Christianity's foundational role in the birth of scientific study. These institutions provided the stability and structure necessary for systematic investigation and learning.
Thiel discusses how Christian theology, specifically its notion that the cosmos is intelligible and that diligent inquiry yields useful knowledge, laid the groundwork for the scientific worldview. These faith-based axioms assumed that understanding the natural world was tantamount to deciphering God's creation. The intertwined relationship between science and Christianity may have fostered a way to create a 'heaven on earth', either complementing or substituting religious belief.
Moreover, Thiel implies that the search for natural explanations, demanded once scapegoats were no longer believed in, contributed to the burgeoning of science—thus losing its connection to moral and philosophical roots.
As science matured and skepticism grew, a shift occurred wherein scientific endeavor began questioning and potentially discarding the religious ethos it was once grounded in. This detachment, perhaps catalyzed during Francis Bacon's era, led to science's disconnected evolution from its moral and philosophical underpinnings.
Thiel adds that Jesus Christ initiated the unraveling of religious and social institutions, proposing an irreversible pivot away ...
Cultural, Historical, and Religious Factors Underlying Scientific Progress
The conversational exchanges between Peter Thiel and Jordan Peterson delve into the complexity of imitation as it relates to human development, socialization, and the resulting challenges posed to society.
Imitation plays a crucial role in the social and psychological organization of individuals, especially during the early stages of development.
Jordan Peterson explains that children learn to navigate social norms and hierarchies through imitation, especially in play scenarios like "playing house." This form of imitation is not merely copying but involves dynamic learning and voluntary participation from each child, aligning their behaviors with a collective goal.
Peter Thiel references Gerard, suggesting that philosophers like Piaget and Aristotle may have underestimated the extent to which imitation influences human behavior. Thiel discusses the positive aspects of imitation, such as the transmission of culture and language learning. However, they also consider the potential for imitation to become harmful when it shifts from productive cultural transmission to envious rivalries.
Without overarching values or goals, imitation can devolve into negative dynamics, with serious consequences for societal well-being and structure.
Imitative behavior can spiral out of control, leading to what Peter Thiel refers to as the "madness of crowds." Such dynamics can be toxic when people engage in status competitions that lack orientation towards transcendent, unifying values. Thiel posits that unchecked imitative desires can pr ...
Psychological and Social Dynamics of Imitation and Competition
Jordan Peterson and Peter Thiel delve into the complexities of sacrifice, exploring its significance in both theological and philosophical contexts.
Peterson discusses sacrifice as the willingness to regulate present behavior for future stability, portraying it as a unique human ability. He sees it as a mature trait where postponement of immediate gratification paves the way for future goals. He gives the example that children learn to consider others' needs and not just their immediate desires when they learn to take turns, a form of sacrifice.
Thiel questions if actions that are rational, like saving money for a future purchase, can still be termed sacrificial. He points out that some sacrifices, such as the pursuit of PhDs by young right-wing academics that often result in unemployment, can be irrational. Thiel sees Peterson's refusal to buckle under academic pressures and give up his speaking freedom as a rational decision rather than a futile sacrifice.
Peterson reflects on his personal sacrifice, where he gave up his job and clinical career to maintain his freedom of speech, suggesting that it was in pursuit of a greater benefit. Thiel views Peterson's actions as rational, liberating him from the restrictive academic sphere to reach a broader audience.
Peterson brings up the biblical story of Abraham and Isaac to demonstrate the enigmatic nature of sacrifice, where Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son ultimately leads to retaining him, questioning the essence of sacrifice. Thiel draws attention to Isaac's faith, which trusted that God would provide an alternative to sacrifice, thus picturing a God who is non-violent and loving, in contrast to the more traditional sacrificial deity.
Thiel draws from René Girard's perspective to illustrate the shift in Christian and Judaic narratives towards one viewed from the innocent victim, altering the theological implications of sacrifice. He interprets the Ten Commandments from a Girardian angle, with the emphasis on worshiping one God and not coveting as keys to breaking free from mimetic rivalry.
Furthermore, Thiel states Christianity, as interpreted by Girard, is inherently anti-sacrificial, turning away from the practice of sacrificial offerings. Thiel interprets ...
The Concept of Sacrifice and Its Theological/Philosophical Significance
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