Podcasts > The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast > 538. South Africa: What the West Needs to Learn | Dr. Ernst Roets

538. South Africa: What the West Needs to Learn | Dr. Ernst Roets

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast explores South Africa's complex history and modern challenges through a discussion with Dr. Ernst Roets. The conversation traces the displacement of indigenous Bushmen by migrating agricultural groups and the impacts of Dutch and British colonization. It offers insights into apartheid's attempted decentralization through ethnic "homelands" and the subsequent transition to majority rule.

The blurb also examines persisting instability and inequality in post-apartheid South Africa, including state failures, political tensions over key sectors like agriculture, and calls for radical reform from groups like the Economic Freedom Fighters. Roets and Peterson explore potential solutions emphasizing decentralization, community self-governance, and the possibility of outside support.

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538.  South Africa: What the West Needs to Learn | Dr. Ernst Roets

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538. South Africa: What the West Needs to Learn | Dr. Ernst Roets

1-Page Summary

South African Settlement and Land Ownership History

Indigenous Bushmen Displaced by Migrating Bantu-Speaking Agricultural Groups

Ernst Roets acknowledges the Bushmen (San) as the original inhabitants of South Africa, but explains they were pushed out by migrating Bantu groups like the Zulus who engaged in warfare.

Dutch Established Cape Colony, Leading to European Settlement and Concepts of Land Ownership

The Dutch East India Company first established a settlement in Cape Town in 1652. According to Roets, the influx of Europeans clashed with the Bushmen's nomadic lifestyle and Bantu notions of communal property.

Boer (Afrikaner) Settlement and Clashes with British

After British colonization, the conservative Boer culture emerged. The Great Trek saw Boers migrate north, establishing independent republics like Natalia and clashing with tribes like Zulu along the way.

The Rise and Fall of Apartheid

Apartheid Aimed for White Dominance Through Ethnic "Homelands"

Roets suggests apartheid intended decentralized rule, with separate "homelands" for each ethnic group under a central government, but the system aimed for white dominance.

Domestic and International Pressure Led to Transition in Early 1990s

Though aiming for peaceful transition to majority rule, Roets notes the switch from apartheid in the early 1990s was marred by township violence.

Modern Challenges Facing South Africa

State Failure Crisis: Collapsing Infrastructure and Services

Roets describes a crisis of state failure in South Africa, with issues like electricity blackouts, transport failures, and a dysfunctional education system.

Political Radicalization Against White South Africans

Roets highlights inflammatory rhetoric from the Economic Freedom Fighters against wealthy whites, with calls to "kill the Boer" reflecting revolutionary sentiment.

Inequality Fuels Tensions, Particularly Over White-Dominated Agriculture Sector

Extreme inequality persists in South Africa, breeding resentment as the white minority dominates top sectors like agriculture.

Potential Solutions

Decentralization to Address Diversity of Interests

Roets suggests decentralizing power to a federal or confederal system would better accommodate South Africa's diverse cultural perspectives on concepts like property rights.

Community Self-Governance Over Centralized National Vision

Both Roets and Peterson see value in empowering communities to self-govern based on their identities, rather than imposing a centralized vision.

Potential for Western Support in Ensuring Stability

The discussion touches on the possibility of Western allies exploring solutions like refugee status to support affected populations like Afrikaner farmers amidst instability.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • The displacement of Bushmen by Bantu groups is a complex historical process that may have involved not only conflict but also assimilation and coexistence.
  • The Dutch establishment of the Cape Colony can be seen as part of a broader pattern of European colonialism, which often disregarded indigenous rights and sovereignty.
  • The narrative of Boer migration and clashes could be expanded to include the perspectives and experiences of indigenous African groups who were affected by these movements.
  • Apartheid's aim for white dominance through ethnic "homelands" is often criticized for being a system of segregation and control rather than a genuine attempt at decentralized rule.
  • The transition from apartheid was not only marred by township violence but also by a complex negotiation process that involved many parties and was a significant step towards democracy.
  • The state failure crisis in South Africa might be contextualized within global economic pressures, legacies of apartheid, and challenges faced by many post-colonial states.
  • Political radicalization can be understood as a response to historical injustices and ongoing inequalities, and not all rhetoric against white South Africans is necessarily inflammatory or revolutionary.
  • The issue of inequality in the agriculture sector could be addressed by considering land reform policies that aim to redress historical injustices while maintaining agricultural productivity.
  • Decentralization as a solution must be carefully considered against the risks of reinforcing divisions and the need for national cohesion and shared economic development.
  • Community self-governance should be balanced with the need to protect the rights of minorities within those communities and to ensure adherence to national and international human rights standards.
  • The potential for Western support in ensuring stability might be critiqued for possibly perpetuating dependency or failing to address the root causes of instability.

Actionables

  • You can deepen your understanding of historical displacement by volunteering with local organizations that support displaced communities. By working with groups that aid refugees or the homeless, you'll gain firsthand insight into the challenges faced by those who have been forced to leave their homes, drawing parallels to the historical context of the Bushmen and other displaced groups.
  • Explore the complexities of cultural integration by starting a book club focused on narratives from indigenous and minority groups. This will allow you and your peers to gain a broader perspective on the impact of colonialism and migration on indigenous lifestyles, similar to the Dutch establishment of the Cape Colony.
  • Encourage conversations about diversity and governance by hosting a dinner series with guests from various backgrounds. Each dinner could focus on a different theme related to the podcast topics, such as community self-governance or the effects of decentralization, prompting discussions on how these issues are relevant in your own community and what can be learned from them.

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538. South Africa: What the West Needs to Learn | Dr. Ernst Roets

South African Settlement and Land Ownership History

The discussions featuring Ernst Roets and Jordan Peterson delve into the complex history of South African settlement and land ownership, from the ancient Bushmen to the emergence of the Boer Republics.

Initially Inhabited by the Distinct Bushmen (San), Nomadic Hunter-Gatherers

Ernst Roets recognizes the Koi and San as the true indigenous people of South Africa, who lived there for tens of thousands of years. The Bushmen, or San, occupied South Africa widespreadly, evidenced by cave paintings found in areas like the Drakensberg. However, they no longer reside there due to displacement.

Bushmen Displaced By Migrating Bantu-Speaking Agricultural Groups

Peterson clarifies that the Bushmen were sophisticated hunter-gatherers who did not engage in agriculture or develop populous cities. Their disputes often ended in murder, as they didn't evolve judicial systems to mediate conflicts. Roets adds that the Bushmen, living as hunter-gatherers without a concept of land ownership as understood post-agriculture, were pushed out by migrating Bantu-speaking groups like the Zulus and Xhosas. These groups, coming from the north, were adept in warfare and displaced the Bushmen, with the Zulu utilizing shorter spears for combat, making them a dominant force.

Dutch East India Company Established Cape Refreshment Station In 1652, Leading To European Settlement

Europeans first arrived in South Africa in the 1650s due to the Dutch East India Company establishing Cape Town as a refreshment station for seafaring trade routes. With time, this became a settlement hub for Europeans. Roets explains that the settlement expanded, and after the Napoleonic Wars around 1810, the British colonized the Cape, leading to conflicts and some instances of cooperation between the Europeans and indigenous populations. The concept of land ownership brought by Europeans clashed with the nomadic lifestyle of the Bushmen and the notions of property held by Bantu-speaking peoples.

European Settlement: Conflicts and Cooperation With Bushmen and Bantu

Peterson and Roets describe the influx of Europeans from the south and Bantu-speaking people from the north as a pressure point for the Bushmen. This led to different perspectives on property rights and ownership, resulting in conflicts and a dominant Western viewpoint on land ownership by the time of European settlement. Roets also points out the Afrikaner perspective, stating that history often emphasizes conflict over cooperation.

Boer (Afrikaner) Emergence and British Clash

The conservative culture of the Afrikaners s ...

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South African Settlement and Land Ownership History

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Counterarguments

  • The recognition of the Koi and San as the true indigenous people of South Africa might be challenged by noting that the concept of "true indigeneity" can be complex and contested, especially considering the dynamic history of human migration and settlement.
  • The displacement of the Bushmen by Bantu-speaking groups is a historical fact, but it's important to acknowledge that such migrations and displacements were part of larger patterns of human movement and not unique to this region.
  • The establishment of Cape Town by the Dutch East India Company is sometimes criticized for not fully acknowledging the impact of European colonization on indigenous populations, including the introduction of diseases and the disruption of local economies and societies.
  • The British colonization of the Cape is often viewed critically for its role in establishing systems of racial segregation and exploitation that would have long-lasting effects on South African society.
  • The concept of land ownership brought by Europeans did clash with indigenous lifestyles, but it's also worth noting that many indigenous groups had their own complex systems of land use and stewardship that were often misunderstood or disregarded by Europeans.
  • The conflicts between Europeans, Bantu-speaking peoples, and the Bushmen were multifaceted, and it's important to recognize that there were also periods of trade, intermarriage, and cultural exchange.
  • The Great Trek and the establishment of Boer Republics are sometimes criticized for be ...

Actionables

  • You can explore the history of indigenous peoples by visiting local museums dedicated to the Koi and San cultures. By engaging with exhibits and attending talks, you'll gain a deeper understanding of their heritage and the impact of historical events on their communities.
  • Create a visual timeline of South African history using online tools or a simple poster board to better grasp the sequence of events and migrations that shaped the region. This activity will help you visualize the movements of different groups, such as the Bantu-speaking peoples and Europeans, and their interactions over time.
  • Engage with historical fiction ...

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538. South Africa: What the West Needs to Learn | Dr. Ernst Roets

The Rise and Fall of Apartheid

The period of apartheid in South Africa has been a complex era marked by segregationist policies and the eventual transition to majority rule. Analysts discuss the intentions and consequences of these policies.

Apartheid Aimed to Maintain White Dominance

Jordan Peterson inquires about the relationship between the apartheid system and the concept of separate homelands, while Ernst Roets provides insight into the criticisms and defenses of apartheid. Roets suggests that the notion of white dominance under apartheid is criticized, and he counters the accusation that apartheid was equivalent to a genocide. He points out the substantial growth of the black African population during the apartheid era as evidence against that claim.

Apartheid Created "Homelands" for Ethnic Diversity

Ernst Roets compares apartheid-era South Africa to Europe with its diversity and explains that the creation of homelands was intended as a form of decentralization. He mentioned that there was one centralized government responsible for managing the decentralization into different cultural homelands, akin to a federal system.

Apartheid Ended In the Early 1990s Due to Domestic and Interna ...

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The Rise and Fall of Apartheid

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Counterarguments

  • Apartheid's creation of "homelands" was not merely for ethnic diversity but was a strategy to disenfranchise and segregate non-white populations.
  • The comparison of apartheid-era South Africa to Europe in terms of diversity overlooks the fact that European nations generally did not enforce such rigid and oppressive racial segregation policies.
  • The intention behind the creation of homelands can be argued to have been more about control and less about genuine decentralization, as it stripped many South Africans of their citizenship and rights within the country.
  • The growth of the black African population during apartheid does not negate the severe oppression and human rights abuses that occurred, nor does it address the quality of life and access to resources for that population.
  • The end of apartheid was not solely due to external pressure; the internal resistance and sacrifices made by South Africans played a crucial role in dismantling the system.
  • While the transition to majority rule was intended to be peaceful, the ...

Actionables

  • You can deepen your understanding of historical contexts by comparing population growth data from different eras to see how policies may have impacted demographics. For instance, look at census data before, during, and after a significant policy change in your country and analyze the trends for insights into policy effects.
  • Explore the concept of decentralization by volunteering with a local community organization that focuses on cultural preservation or autonomy. Through this, you'll gain firsthand experience of how communities manage their affairs and the challenges they face in a centralized government system.
  • To better grasp the co ...

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538. South Africa: What the West Needs to Learn | Dr. Ernst Roets

The Modern Challenges Facing South Africa

South Africa is facing a crisis of state failure, with collapsing infrastructure and services, and dealing with political radicalization against white South Africans, as well as systemic inequality, unemployment, and poverty.

South Africa Faces State Failure Crisis With Collapsing Infrastructure and Services

Ernst Roets expresses that South Africa is undergoing massive state failure, highlighting that almost everything the government should manage is collapsing, barring tax collection. He notes that there are fundamental structural problems within South Africa's political system contributing to this societal decay.

Rolling Blackouts, Water Shortages, Transport Failures, Dysfunctional Education Signal Decline

South Africa's difficulties began with rolling blackouts about a decade ago due to a lack of power station construction and maintenance. Now, the country operates at half capacity while the population has grown, with blackouts extending up to 12 hours a day. Wealthier South Africans adapt by installing solar power systems, ironically widening the wealth gap. Water issues are exacerbated by leakages and poor maintenance, which are dire for poor communities, and the obsolete apartheid infrastructure is often blamed instead of the current government's inaction. Transport systems, including railways and the port in Durban, are failing, impacting the economy and safety. Road maintenance is lacking, affecting transportation further. With police services failing, private security has grown significantly, leading to a prevalence of mob justice. The education system is largely dysfunctional, with a vast disparity in educational outcomes between wealthy and disadvantaged schools.

ANC's Political Radicalization and Inflammatory Rhetoric Against White South Africans

Ernst Roets discusses the current government's inclination towards socialist solutions involving property rights, indicating potential radicalization and inflammatory rhetoric against wealthy South Africans, including white landowners. During a podcast with Jordan Peterson, the slogan "Kill the Boer" is discussed as evidence of revolutionary rhetoric against white South Africans. Roets identifies Julius Malema, the leader of the Economic Freedom Fighters, as a person stoking tensions by using statements such as "slit the throat of whiteness" and other derogatory comments about white people, and encouraging supporters to seize land.

Calls to "Kill the Boer" and Dispossess White Landowners Reflect Revolutionary Sentiment

Roets references his own book, "Kill the Boer," to highlight the gravity of the revolutionary sentiment against Afrikaner farmers. The slogan is not merely symbolic but is taken by some as literal calls to action. In court, an individual involved in chanting this phrase suggested there might be a future when white slaughter is called for, which he suggested would be the fault of the whites themselves. Roets has campaigned against hate ...

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The Modern Challenges Facing South Africa

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Counterarguments

  • The crisis of state failure may be more nuanced, with some sectors and regions performing better than others, and there may be ongoing efforts to address these challenges that are not captured in the text.
  • The political radicalization against white South Africans, while present, may not be as widespread as suggested, and there may be significant efforts towards reconciliation and unity across different racial groups.
  • Inequality, unemployment, and poverty are indeed serious issues, but there may be successful programs and policies in place aimed at alleviating these problems that are not mentioned in the text.
  • While rolling blackouts and service failures are a concern, there may be initiatives and investments in place to improve the infrastructure and services, such as renewable energy projects or international partnerships.
  • The slogan "Kill the Boer" is highly controversial and offensive, but it may not be representative of the broader population's views, and there may be legal and social mechanisms to counter hate speech and protect minorit ...

Actionables

  • You can educate yourself on South African history and current affairs to better understand the context of these issues. Start by reading books or articles written by South African authors, which can provide a more nuanced perspective than international reports. For example, delve into works by Nelson Mandela or Desmond Tutu for historical context, and follow South African news outlets online for current developments.
  • Support South African businesses and initiatives that aim to bridge the inequality gap. Look for fair trade products that ensure fair wages to workers or contribute to community development projects. You might purchase crafts from South African artisans online, or choose to invest in South African companies that have transparent, ethical practices and contribute to local economies.
  • Engage in conversations about global inequality and its manifestations, usi ...

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538. South Africa: What the West Needs to Learn | Dr. Ernst Roets

Potential Solutions or Pathways Forward for South Africa

In a discussion about the complex social and cultural landscape of South Africa, Ernst Roets and Jordan Peterson explore decentralizing political power as a potential approach to respecting the country's diversity, which may lead to more effective governance.

Decentralizing Power to Address South Africa's Diversity and Interests

Roets emphasizes the importance of accommodating South Africa's diverse cultures, which have unique views on concepts such as property rights. He notes, for example, how Western ideas of individual property rights do not always align with cultures like the Zulu that value monarchy and communal ownership.

Federal or Confederal System With Increased Regional and Community Autonomy

Roets suggests that the way forward involves reducing the central government's control, potentially moving toward a federation or granting cultural or territorial autonomy. He outlines the importance of acknowledging the country's diversity and believes that there can be lessons in the failures of large European governments. Peterson and Roets find common ground on the need for decentralization as a meaningful pathway for South Africa.

Empowering Community Self-Governance Over a Unitary National Vision May Be More Effective

The conversation moves to the concept of empowering communities to self-govern, which Roets sees as a bottom-up approach necessary for addressing the country's issues. This approach acknowledges that different groups in South Africa think in distinct ways, and allowing these groups to maintain their identities and customs is seen as a way to reduce conflict that arises from a central government imposition.

Empowering Diverse Groups to Maintain Identities Reduces Conflict

Roets highlights the notion that South Africa is a "community of communities," composed of numerous nations and tribes. He intimates that embracing self-governance and decision-making within these communities can lead to a reduction in conflicts born from the disregard of cultural identities by a dominating central authority.

Western Allies May Support Solutions Fo ...

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Potential Solutions or Pathways Forward for South Africa

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Counterarguments

  • Decentralization could potentially exacerbate regional inequalities by allowing wealthier regions to advance while poorer regions fall behind due to less resource allocation from a central government.
  • A federal or confederal system might lead to fragmentation and weaken the national identity, which could be detrimental in a country with a history of division.
  • Increased regional autonomy could complicate national policy-making, especially in areas like trade, immigration, and environmental regulation, where uniformity might be beneficial.
  • Empowering community self-governance could result in the entrenchment of local power structures that may not always act in the best interests of their constituents or uphold human rights.
  • There is a risk that decentralization and self-governance could lead to the violation of minority rights within communities, especially if majority rule is not balanced with protections for minorities.
  • Western involvement in South Africa's governance issues could be seen as neocolonial interference and might not be ...

Actionables

  • You can explore local governance by joining or forming a neighborhood association to address community-specific issues. By participating in a local association, you engage directly with the concept of self-governance. For example, if your community values green spaces, you could work with neighbors to create and maintain a community garden, reflecting your shared values and exercising autonomy in local decision-making.
  • You can support cultural diversity by volunteering with organizations that aid immigrants or refugees in your area. This helps you understand and contribute to the preservation of diverse identities within your community. For instance, you might volunteer at a cultural center that provides language classes and legal assistance, helping newcomers maintain their cultural practices while integrating into the broader society.
  • You can encourage dialogue on diversity and self-governanc ...

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