536. Ancient Stories That Bridge The Heavens & The Earth | Jacob Howland
In this episode of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Jacob Howland and Peterson explore the importance of balancing reason with faith, drawing insight from the interplay between Greek and Hebraic thought. They underscore the value in harmonizing human intellect with divine guidance to avoid extremism or totalitarianism.
The discussion touches on the dangers of overconfidence in human reason and the need for a metaphysical and moral foundation. Howland and Peterson argue that ancient narratives offer frameworks for navigating modern challenges like identity crises and spiritual voids. They suggest reorienting towards ancient wisdom can help address issues arising from rapid technological change.
This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the Apr 7, 2025 episode of the The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
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1-Page Summary
Reason and Faith: The Need For Balance
Jacob Howland emphasizes the necessity of balancing reason with faith, as an imbalance can lead to extremism or totalitarianism. The interplay between Greek and Hebraic thought illustrates the value in blending these principles.
Israelites and Greeks Sought Harmony Between Intellect and Divine Guidance
The Israelites and Greeks both grappled with harmonizing human reason and divine revelation. The Talmudic tradition and Plato's dialogues value open-ended questioning, multiple perspectives, and acknowledge the limits of human understanding, according to Howland.
Socrates believed in divine wisdom from the gods, not fully comprehensible to humans. Howland says the Israelites faced a choice between enslavement to man-made authority like Pharaoh or submission to God, highlighting the dangers of unchecked human reason.
The Importance of Properly Framed Questions and Quests
Questions are integral to inquiry and adventure, Howland states. According to Peterson, questions frame the aim for thoughts and revelations. Peterson likens thought to secular prayer: a question, a revelation, and critical interpretation.
Howland notes Socrates taught the Greeks to internalize dialectic thought, recognizing the role of wonder and questioning in philosophy.
Dangers of Hubris and Need For a Metaphysical and Moral Foundation
Howland and Peterson discuss the perils of overconfidence in human reason to control nature and build utopias, ignoring moral foundations and past wisdom. Peterson critiques intellectuals detached from wisdom, exemplified by Marx and Mao.
The alchemists foresaw science's need for ethical intent, Peterson says. Belief in goodness prevents descent into destruction when pursuing knowledge. Howland warns against implementing technologies like AI without moral grounding.
Relevance of Ancient Narratives for Modern Challenges
Ancient narratives offer insight into humanity's struggle for meaning, purpose, and divine relationship, illuminating modern challenges.
Howland cites Borges exploring finite humans' encounters with the infinite, highlighting humility's importance. Ancient archetypes provide frameworks to navigate modern identity crises and spiritual challenges, Howland and Peterson suggest.
They argue reorienting towards the highest good through ancient wisdom can address spiritual voids and identity issues arising from rapid technological change.
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Counterarguments
- The balance between reason and faith may not be necessary or desirable in all contexts, especially in secular societies that prioritize empirical evidence and scientific methodologies.
- The harmony between human reason and divine guidance presupposes the existence of a divine entity, which is not universally accepted and may not be relevant to non-theistic philosophical or ethical systems.
- Open-ended questioning and multiple perspectives, while valuable, can also lead to indecision or moral relativism if not anchored by a clear framework of values or goals.
- Socrates' belief in divine wisdom may not resonate with those who question the existence of the divine or who believe that human reason is the highest form of understanding.
- The dichotomy presented between man-made authority and submission to God oversimplifies complex social and political structures and may not account for secular forms of governance that are neither tyrannical nor theocratic.
- The role of questions in inquiry and adventure might be overstated, as some disciplines or endeavors require more structured approaches or definitive answers.
- The critique of intellectuals like Marx and Mao may not consider the full scope of their ideas or the historical and social contexts in which they were developed.
- The assertion that alchemists foresaw the ethical needs of science could be challenged by pointing out that alchemy and modern science are fundamentally different in their methods and objectives.
- The belief in goodness as a preventative measure against destructive knowledge pursuit may be too simplistic and not take into account the complex motivations behind scientific and technological advancements.
- The caution against implementing technologies like AI without moral grounding assumes that there is a consensus on what constitutes moral grounding, which is not always the case.
- The relevance of ancient narratives to modern challenges might be limited by cultural and historical differences that make direct comparisons or applications problematic.
- The emphasis on humility in the face of the infinite may not be compelling to those who value human achievement and progress.
- The suggestion that ancient archetypes can navigate modern identity crises and spiritual challenges may not resonate with individuals who find more relevance in contemporary philosophies and lifestyles.
- The idea of reorienting towards the highest good through ancient wisdom may be seen as regressive or impractical in a rapidly changing world where new ethical dilemmas arise that ancient wisdom did not anticipate.
Actionables
- You can start a personal "Socratic Journal" where you write down a challenging question each day and explore it from multiple angles. This practice encourages you to embrace the value of open-ended questioning and consider perspectives beyond your own. For example, ask yourself, "What is the role of technology in my life?" and explore the potential benefits and ethical implications without seeking a definitive answer.
- Create a "Wisdom Circle" with friends or family where you discuss ancient narratives and their relevance to modern life. This could be a monthly gathering where each person brings a story from a different ancient culture or philosopher and you collectively discuss the moral and spiritual lessons that can be applied today. For instance, one month you might discuss the myth of Icarus and its lessons on the dangers of overconfidence and the next month, a parable from the Talmud about humility.
- Develop a "Goodness Guideline" for your use of technology, where you set personal rules that ensure your tech habits align with your moral values. This might include limiting screen time, using technology to connect with others in meaningful ways, or supporting tech companies that prioritize ethical considerations. For example, you could decide to volunteer your tech skills to a nonprofit once a week or choose to invest in companies developing AI with strong ethical frameworks.
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Reason and Faith: The Need For Balance
Jacob Howland articulates the necessity of blending reason with faith, cautioning that an imbalance can lead to extremism or totalitarianism. The historical interplay between Greek and Hebraic thought demonstrates the value in this approach.
Israelites and Greeks Grappled With Balancing Human Reason and Divine Revelation
The Greeks and Israelites both dealt with the challenge of harmonizing human intellect with divine guidance. This clash and reconciliation formed a foundation for Western civilization.
Talmud and Plato's Dialogues Both Value Questions, Multiple Perspectives, and Acknowledge Understanding's Limits
Howland compares the Talmudic tradition with Platonic dialogues, highlighting both traditions' emphasis on open-ended questions and multiple perspectives. They uphold a pursuit of knowledge that honors the limits of human understanding, leaving some questions unanswered or for future generations.
Jacob Howland discusses the rationality within the horizon of Revelation starting from the Torah for the rabbis of the Talmud. He also details the debates in the Talmud, which include diverse intellectual perspectives and often conclude without definitive answers, acknowledging that some mysteries may only be revealed in the future.
Socrates Believed the Gods Revealed an Answer to Wisdom, Not Fully Comprehensible to Humans
After Socrates's friend consulted the Delphic Oracle, which declared no one wiser than Socrates, he took this as a divine sign, acknowledging an answer from the gods that was not completely comprehensible to humans. This incident led Socrates to commit his life to the pursuit of wisdom and self-knowledge. Howland references Socrates's intellectual journey and his confidence, tempered with humility, acknowledging his own ignorance.
Israelites' Struggle: Enslavement To Pharaoh vs. Submission to God & Dangers of Unchecked Reason
Howland discusses the choice presented to the Israelites betw ...
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Reason and Faith: The Need For Balance
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Counterarguments
- The emphasis on balancing reason and faith may overlook the perspective that reason alone can be a sufficient guide for ethical living and governance, without the need for faith.
- The assertion that the historical interplay between Greek and Hebraic thought is foundational for Western civilization could be challenged by pointing out contributions from other cultures and philosophies that have also significantly shaped the West.
- The idea that the Talmud and Platonic dialogues both value open-ended questions might be critiqued by those who argue that these traditions still operate within certain dogmatic boundaries.
- Socrates's belief in a divine answer to wisdom could be countered by the argument that human wisdom and knowledge, though limited, are capable of continual expansion without necessarily invoking the divine.
- The contrast between enslavement to Pharaoh and submission to God could be critiqued by those who argue for a secular moral framework that does not require submission to a higher power.
- The concern about modern society's obsession with technology leading to a god-like stature might be countered by highlighting the potential for technol ...
Actionables
- You can explore the balance between reason and faith by starting a personal journal where you reflect on daily decisions through both lenses. Write down a decision you made, analyze it with logical reasoning, and then consider how faith or intuition might influence your perspective. This practice can help you see where you might be leaning too heavily on one side and encourage a more balanced approach.
- Engage in a 'Socratic dialogue' with a friend or family member about a current event or personal belief. Instead of debating to win, focus on asking open-ended questions to understand their reasoning and explore the limits of your own understanding. This can foster a deeper appreciation for diverse perspectives and the complexity of human knowledge.
- Create a 'technology Sabbath' where y ...
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The Importance of Properly Framed Questions and Quests
The dialogue between Howland and Peterson delves into the nature of questioning as the cornerstone of inquiry, adventure, and the journey to discovery.
Questions, the Root of "Quest," Are the Foundation of Inquiry and Adventure
Framing Questions Shapes Thoughts and Revelations
Jacob Howland illustrates that questions are integral to the Talmudic style, forming the crux of inquiry and adventure. It begins with a practical question, often evolving into a more profound discussion, embodying the idea that questions lay the groundwork for exploration and deeper insight.
Jordan Peterson emphasizes that setting a question is akin to setting an aim for your thoughts. This aim directs consciousness, suggesting answers will emerge in alignment with the quest. Howland further explores this in the Biblical and Platonic contexts, discussing the fundamental question of "Where have you been and where are you going?" highlighting the importance of properly framing inquiries.
Thought As Secular Prayer: Question, Revelation, Dialogue
Peterson posits that thought comprises an aim, a revelation, and critical thought, likening this process to secular prayer. A question serves as a plea for an answer; the revelation is the awaited response that requires interpretation; and the critical thought is an internal dialogue, filtering the valuable insights from the noise.
Moses’ encounter with the burning bush illustrates this concept — it is the pursuit and the questions raised during his quest that lead to revelation and transform him into a leader. Similarly, Rhodes's book "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" shows how physics questions about atomic components drove significant discoveries in the field.
Socrates Taught Greeks to Internali ...
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Counterarguments
- While questions are foundational to inquiry, not all questions lead to adventure or significant discovery; some may lead to dead ends or trivial insights.
- The act of framing questions is indeed influential, but it is also important to recognize that the ability to frame questions is influenced by one's existing knowledge and biases, which can limit the scope of inquiry.
- Directing consciousness towards answers is valuable, but it can also create a confirmation bias where one only sees evidence that supports their preconceived notions.
- Properly framed inquiries are important, but what constitutes "proper" can be subjective and culturally relative.
- Thought as secular prayer may not resonate with everyone, especially those who do not engage in prayer or do not see thought as a spiritual or quasi-spiritual process.
- The transformation through questions and revelations is not a universal experience; some individuals may not undergo significant change despite engaging with profound questions.
- While physics questions have led to significant discoveries, not all fields of study experience the same direct relationship between questioning and breakthroughs.
- Socratic dialogue is ...
Actionables
- Start a "Question Journal" to cultivate curiosity and insight. Every day, write down at least one open-ended question about something you've observed or are curious about. This practice encourages you to actively seek out new information and perspectives, leading to personal growth and understanding. For example, if you notice a new construction project on your way to work, you might jot down, "How does urban development impact local ecosystems?"
- Create a "Wonder Wall" in your home or office. Dedicate a space where you can post questions that arise from your daily experiences. Use sticky notes or a whiteboard to make it interactive and visually engaging. This can serve as a constant reminder to embrace wonder and humility in your everyday life. When you come across something that intrigues you, like a new technology or a social trend, add a question about it to your wall, such as "What societal needs does this new technology address?"
- Engage in a weekly "Soc ...
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Dangers of Hubris and Need For a Metaphysical and Moral Foundation
Jacob Howland and Jordan Peterson delve into the perils of overestimating human reason and the consequent disasters brought on by efforts to control nature and forge utopias with insufficient regard for moral foundations. They emphasize the necessity for ethical considerations and diverse wisdom in both the pursuit and application of knowledge.
Enlightenment's Excessive Faith in Reason to Control Nature and Build Utopia Caused Disaster
Marx Exhibited a Luciferian Hubris to Remake the World By Abstract Ideals, Disregarding Past Wisdom
Peterson critiques intellectuals, particularly professors, who allow their "selfish, power-mad whims" to detach them from historical wisdom, equating this to Luciferian hubris. Citing Mao Zedong and Karl Marx as examples, he highlights the desire to create a new society through abstract ideals while ignoring past wisdom, comparing such ambitions to the biblical story of Adam and Eve. Peterson further alludes to Marx's intellectual lineage linking to Satanism, expressing that this demonstrates over-confidence in intellectual capacity and reason to build utopias.
Alchemists Valued Pure Intentions, Foreseeing the Need for a Moral Foundation in Science and Technology
The alchemists' insistence on the purity of intent in investigations, as discussed by Peterson through Jung's analysis, reveals an early recognition of the moral implications within scientific inquiry. The pioneering work in nuclear physics serves as a cautionary tale of the ethical considerations required when harnessing powerful new energies.
Belief in Goodness Prevents Reason's Descent Into Destruction
Peterson aligns this dialogue with Howland on the need for a metaphysical and moral foundation. They contemplate the potential risks posed by science and technology, such as AI, when developed without adequate philosophical anthropology or understanding of the human. They refer to the story of Job and the assurance of goodness as a guard against the destructive capabilities of reason when misdirected.
Howland’s remarks about the avoidance of hubris in the context of the story of Adam, Eve, and Goethe's Mephistopheles echo the idea that disregarding accumulated wisdom leads to harmful outcomes. Moreover, Howl ...
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Clarifications
- Luciferian hubris typically denotes excessive pride or arrogance, often associated with the biblical figure of Lucifer who rebelled against God. It signifies an overestimation of one's abilities or knowledge, leading to disastrous consequences. In the context of the text, it is used to criticize individuals who exhibit unchecked ambition and disregard established wisdom, particularly in the pursuit of grand ideological or societal transformations. The term highlights the dangers of pursuing lofty goals without humility or ethical considerations.
- The story of Job, found in the Book of Job in the Bible, explores the theme of suffering and the question of why bad things happen to good people. Job, a righteous man, faces immense trials and challenges, including losing his wealth, health, and family. Through his experiences, the book delves into the complexities of faith, human suffering, and the nature of God's justice.
- Goethe's Mephistopheles is a character from Johann Wolfgang von Goethe's play "Faust." Mephistopheles is a demon who embodies temptation and represents the darker aspects of human nature. He is known for his cunning and persuasive nature, often leading Faust astray in his pursuit of knowledge and power. Mephistopheles plays a crucial role in the moral and philosophical themes explored in the play.
- Classical education for engineers and scientists involves incorporating humanities and liberal arts subjects into the curriculum alongside technical courses. This approach aims to provide a well-rounded education that includes ethics, critical thinking, and cultural understanding to complement technical skills. By studying classical subjects like philosophy, literature, and history, engineers and scientists can develop a broader perspective and ethical framework to guide their work. This interd ...
Counterarguments
- The belief that human reason is inherently flawed or limited may underestimate the capacity for critical thinking and problem-solving that has led to many advancements in society.
- The emphasis on moral and metaphysical foundations could be seen as subjective, as different cultures and individuals have varying beliefs about what constitutes morality and metaphysics.
- The critique of Marx and the association with Luciferian hubris could be challenged by those who argue that Marx's ideas were misinterpreted or misapplied by others, rather than inherently flawed.
- The valorization of alchemists' pure intentions may overlook the complex history of alchemy, which includes both mystical and proto-scientific elements that do not necessarily align with modern scientific ethics.
- The idea that belief in goodness alone can prevent the misuse of knowledge may be overly simplistic, as it does not account for the complex factors that lead to ethical lapses in science and technology.
- The assertion that classical education can rectify alignment problems in technology may not take into account the need for contemporary and specialized ethical training that dire ...
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Relevance of Ancient Narratives for Modern Challenges
Jacob Howland and Jordan Peterson engage in a discussion that highlights the continued significance of ancient biblical and philosophical narratives in understanding and addressing modern challenges such as the human struggle for meaning, purpose, and divine relationships.
Ancient Biblical and Philosophical Narratives Illuminate the Human Struggle For Meaning, Purpose, and Divine Relationship
Borges Explored Humanity's Encounter With the Infinite, Revealing Our Need For Humility and Wonder
Jacob Howland reflects on Jorge Luis Borges's writings, which tackle questions related to humanity's interaction with infinity. Borges's characters, like the Mayan priest in one story, grapple with omnipotence or seek the meaning of their lives in an infinite library. These narratives illuminate the theme of finite beings confronting the infinite, underscoring our need for humility and wonder, a concept echoed by Peterson when discussing the balance between constraints and possibility.
Ancient Story Archetypes: Key To Navigating Modern Challenges
Peterson and Howland suggest that biblical figures such as Abraham and Job, and philosophical principles epitomized by Socrates, offer templates to navigate modern trials. These ancient archetypes present a framework for understanding our challenges and addressing spiritual and identity crises rooted in our technological era. Howland bringing up Dante's "[restricted term]," indicates that these narratives help us interpret political and social control within contemporary society.
Reorienting Towards the Highest Good: Addressing Today's Spiritual and Identity Crises
The conversations between Peterson and Howland imply that ancient wisdom can reorient us toward the h ...
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Relevance of Ancient Narratives for Modern Challenges
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Counterarguments
- Ancient narratives, while valuable, may not always directly translate to modern contexts due to significant differences in social structures, technology, and knowledge.
- The interpretation of ancient texts is often subjective, and different scholars may derive contrasting lessons from the same narratives.
- Modern challenges may require new ethical frameworks and solutions that ancient wisdom does not explicitly provide.
- Reliance on ancient narratives might sometimes overshadow the importance of contemporary thought and the need for progressive solutions.
- The complexity of modern issues related to technology, globalization, and diversity may not be fully addressed by the relatively homogenous ancient texts.
- Some ancient narratives may perpetuate outdated values or norms that are no longer acceptable or relevant in m ...
Actionables
- Create a personal "wisdom journal" to reflect on ancient narratives and their relevance to your life. Start by selecting a story or character from ancient texts each week, and write down how their experiences and choices might relate to your own life challenges. For example, if you're facing a tough decision, consider how a figure like Socrates would approach the dilemma with questions and ethical reasoning.
- Develop a "modern virtues" discussion group with friends or online community members. Use ancient archetypes and philosophical principles as a springboard for conversations about navigating today's world. You might discuss how the humility of Borges's characters when encountering the infinite can translate into humility in the face of today's technological advancements.
- Implement a "tech Sabbath" where you disconnect from digital devices for ...
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