532. A Dialogue So Dangerous, It Just Might Bring You Wisdom | John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall

The conversation with Jordan Peterson and John Vervaeke revolves around the psychological and philosophical nature of conscience and the tendency for self-deception, with insights from Peterson's views on higher-order values and Vervaeke's thoughts on pathological conscience.

Conscience Stems From a Hierarchy of Values: Higher-Order Goals Guide Decisions

Peterson introduces the idea of a "vertical dimension" to human conscience, which differentiates us from AI systems, and suggests that once goals are set, the conscience and perceptual systems layout the landscape for navigation. He describes the conscience as a warning system through negative emotions when one deviates from their path, and as a calling through positive emotions when making progress towards their goal. This voice could be considered as one's own since it is associated with one's goals, but also as a "voice from above."

Tracing Reasons to Superordinate Goals and Principles In Acting

Peterson and Hall discuss how actions are tied to a vertical hierarchy of values, where proximal and wider reasons lead to higher-order goals. The discussion includes how actions should align with deeper values and the consequences of failing to do so.

Peterson stresses aiming for the highest possible good and focusing on the present in order to align perceptions and emotions with one's goals. When people engage deeply, they may progress towards various superordinate goals while also transforming the nature of the superordinate goal itself.

Conscience as a "Voice From Above" Warns of Actions Violating Higher Aims

Peterson describes conscience as the voice that comes from a higher order goal, warning when operations at a lower level threaten to violate a higher order goal. The conversation implies that the voice of conscience is tied to adherence to higher-order values and principles, such as truth and ethical behavior.

Pathological Conscience: Incoherent, Self-Defeating, Lacks Consistent Normative Standard

Conversely, a pathological conscience, as Vervaeke explains, lacks upward orientation and a consistent normative standard. He delves into the distinction between a helpful conscience oriented towards higher goods and a harmful superego that refuses to follow the normative standards it sets.

Tyrannical Authority Figures Implant an Arbitrary Punishing "Superego" Without Guiding Towards Higher Goods

Vervaeke references the internalized voice of tyrannical authority figures, resembling the harsh Freudian "superego," which does not aim to guide one towards higher aims. Peterson observes that if the superego is the voice of a sadist, it's a power maneuver meant to inflict guilt or pain rather than guide one towards higher goods.

Hall relates this to the development of larger societies where the conscience becomes top-down and non-tyrannical as i ...

The dialogue between John Vervaeke and Jordan Peterson offers a nuanced analysis of the ways in which humans can understand and interact with the concepts of finitude and transcendence.

Transcendence: Recognizing Human Limitations and Connecting With the Real and Meaningful

Embracing Flaws and Mortality With Truth, Beauty, and the Divine

John Vervaeke and Jordan Peterson explore the idea of meaningfully connecting with the transcendent. Vervaeke suggests that sacrifice is impactful when it serves the purpose of reaching what is most real, pointing toward a link with transcendence. Peterson discusses structures of ascending values and the attainment of the transcendent, equating this to the divine. They discuss Moses and the transformation of society in his absence, with Peterson likening the transcendent to a higher authority necessary to prevent societal degeneration.

Balancing Humility and Confidence For Transcendent Engagement Is Key to Psychological and Spiritual Health

The conversation delves into the balance required between understanding one's limits and reaching for higher goods as a key component of psychological and spiritual well-being. Vervaeke speaks about existential conscience and the tension between the finite and transcendent. Peterson suggests embracing mortality and aligning oneself with truth, and the pursuit of higher goods.

Incarnation and Crucifixion of Christ: Finite Transcendence as Divine Embraces Human Finitude

Models Embracing Limitations, Accessing Higher Meaning and Value

The dialogue further touches on Christ's embrace of human limitations through his incarnation and crucifixion. This conversation highlights the imitation of Christ as a mean ...

This article delves into the intricate social ceremonies of hospitality and the significance of play in expanding one's imagination, which are both vital elements in the fabric of human social interactions and consciousness.

Hospitality Is a Social Ritual Welcoming Strangers as Kin, Transcending Differences

Jordan Peterson, in a discussion about the cardinal moral virtue of hospitality, elaborates on its anthropological aspects within the Old Testament. Hospitality, as Peterson notes, served pragmatic benefits like establishing trade over theft, creating a network of trust. He suggests that, applied globally, hospitality could make the world more welcoming.

Hospitality Unites Diverse Humanity

Peterson discusses the concept of expanding social networks through hospitality rituals, suggesting that by treating strangers as kin, we express a shared transcendent identity that goes beyond superficial differences such as race or ethnicity. The act itself is a proposition about our shared core identity, which unites humanity on a profound level.

Hospitable View of Strangers as "Angels in Disguise" Reveals a Transcendent Aspect of Human Relations

Jordan Hall introduces the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, stressing the importance of hospitality, while Peterson adds that in treating strangers hospitably, we recognize a transcendent aspect in them—essentially, treating them as 'angels in disguise.' This philosophy embodies the recognition of the inherent value in every human interaction.

Peterson emphasizes honesty in interactions, aligning with the transformative power of genuine hospitality that can encourage the 'angelic element' in a person's nature. This reveals a transcendent aspect of human relations that emphasizes the inherent dignity in every human.

Play and Ritual Foster Imagination, Enabling New Perspectives and Identities For Social Cooperation and Flexibility

Jordan Hall recalls his childhood play in a forest, describing a sense of aliveness and sanctity, which later turned into a reflection on the loss of sacred play spaces.

Hospitality, Initiation, and Recognition Rituals Bind Large Collectives Beyond Small Tribes

John Vervaeke and Jordan Peterson bring forth the idea of hospitality and play in nurturing social cooperation and flexibility. Vervaeke talks about rituals that foster cognitive flexibility and trustworthiness between strangers, helping to bind larger collectives and define group identity. These rituals are essential for extending cooperation networks beyon ...