528. You Get Everything You Want—Then What? | Dr. Arthur Brooks
In this episode of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Peterson and guest Dr. Arthur Brooks delve into the pursuit of lasting fulfillment. They contrast fleeting pleasure with meaningful enjoyment cultivated through relationships, memory, and social integration. The discussion explores discernment as an intentional process of aligning actions with purpose, transcending individualistic pleasures and self-centeredness.
Brooks and Peterson advocate harmonizing work, relationships, and beliefs through self-awareness and sacrifice. They emphasize the importance of integrating life's facets rather than compartmentalizing them. The conversation guides listeners to finding deeper fulfillment by cultivating gratitude, awe, and an outward perspective.
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1-Page Summary
Pursuing Meaningful Enjoyment Over Fleeting Pleasure
Enjoyment Lasts, Pleasure Is Fleeting
Jordan Peterson and Arthur Brooks emphasize that pleasure, like smelling Thanksgiving dinner, is momentary, while enjoyment, savoring the meal, endures. Enjoyment requires cognition and social integration for meaning.
Enjoyment Elevates Pleasure into Meaningful Well-Being
Brooks posits that pursuing pure pleasure leads to unsatisfying addictions. Enjoyment intertwines pleasure with relationships, memory, and love to enable lasting happiness and social reciprocity, elevating basic impulses.
The Importance of Discernment in Finding Purpose
Active Process of Discernment Uncovers Inherent Meaning
Per Brooks, discernment involves deliberate steps to identify life's aim, devise a strategy, and progress, aligning with the view that essence precedes existence - purpose awaits discovery.
Discernment Aligns Actions with Purpose, Not Whims
Discernment requires humility to eliminate idols like money and pleasure. Brooks advocates prayer and imagination to further discernment, while Peterson advises assessing true desires continuously.
Transcending Self-Centeredness for Meaning
Narcissism Blocks Meaningful Connections
Brooks cites narcissism as a dark trait hindering gratitude, awe, and ability to self-transcend or learn from guilt - barricades to happiness.
Cultivating Self-Transcendence Reveals Deeper Fulfillment
Brooks and Peterson advocate transcending individualistic pleasures by recognizing the interconnected whole. Having children facilitates this shift from self-centeredness.
Integrating Life's Facets for Fulfillment
Harmonizing Work, Relationships, and Beliefs
Brooks rejects separating "work" from "life", arguing work extends one's purpose. Peterson contrasts happiness from gratification - true satisfaction integrates endeavors.
Self-Awareness and Sacrifice Allow Domains to Enhance Each Other
Brooks cites his father as modeling integration through discernment. Peterson notes money facilitates possibility, but taste aligns pursuits with values for fulfillment when integrating life's domains.
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Clarifications
- Essence precedes existence is a philosophical concept that suggests the fundamental nature or identity of something exists before its actual existence. This idea is central to existentialism, which argues that individuals create their own values and meaning in life through their actions and choices. Existentialists believe that humans do not have inherent identities or values; instead, they must define these for themselves. This concept contrasts with the traditional view that the essence or nature of something is fixed and predetermined before its existence.
- Narcissism is a personality trait characterized by self-centeredness, a lack of empathy for others, and an excessive need for admiration. It hinders gratitude by focusing excessively on oneself, limits the ability to experience awe by prioritizing self-importance, and impedes self-transcendence by reinforcing a narrow focus on personal desires and achievements.
- Discernment involves making thoughtful and deliberate choices that are aligned with one's deeper purpose or values, rather than acting impulsively based on fleeting desires or whims. It requires a level of introspection and consideration to ensure that actions are in line with one's overarching goals and beliefs. By practicing discernment, individuals can prioritize what truly matters to them and make decisions that contribute to their long-term fulfillment and sense of purpose. This process helps in distinguishing between actions driven by genuine meaning and those driven by momentary impulses.
- Transcending individualistic pleasures by recognizing the interconnected whole means moving beyond focusing solely on personal satisfaction and desires to understanding how one's actions and choices impact the broader community and world. It involves acknowledging that our lives are interconnected with others and that our decisions can have ripple effects beyond ourselves. This perspective encourages a shift towards considering the well-being of others, fostering empathy, and recognizing the importance of collective harmony and cooperation for a more fulfilling existence. By embracing this interconnectedness, individuals can find deeper meaning and satisfaction in contributing positively to the greater whole.
- The argument against separating "work" from "life" suggests that one's work should not be viewed as a separate entity but rather as an integral part of life. This perspective emphasizes that work is not just a means to an end but can contribute to one's overall purpose and fulfillment. By integrating work with other aspects of life, individuals can find greater satisfaction and meaning in their endeavors. This approach encourages a holistic view of life where work is seen as interconnected with relationships, beliefs, and personal growth.
- Money facilitates the ability to explore various opportunities and options in life. However, having a discerning taste or a clear set of values helps individuals make choices that align with their personal beliefs and principles, ensuring that their pursuits are meaningful and fulfilling. In essence, while money can open doors, it is one's taste, preferences, and values that guide them towards decisions that bring true satisfaction and fulfillment.
Counterarguments
- Enjoyment and pleasure are not always distinct; for some, pleasure can be deeply meaningful and enjoyment can be fleeting.
- The pursuit of pleasure, when balanced and not addictive, can contribute to a well-rounded, satisfying life.
- Discernment might not always lead to a clear life's aim; some philosophies suggest that purpose can be fluid and ever-changing.
- Money and pleasure are not inherently idols; they can be integral to a fulfilling life when approached with balance and mindfulness.
- Narcissism, while often detrimental, can also drive ambition and success; the key may be in finding a balance rather than complete self-transcendence.
- The idea that having children facilitates a shift from self-centeredness may not apply universally; fulfillment can come from many different sources.
- Separating work from life can be beneficial for some, providing necessary boundaries that contribute to mental health and well-being.
- Self-awareness and sacrifice are important, but so is self-compassion and allowing oneself to enjoy life without constant self-improvement or sacrifice.
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Pleasure vs. Enjoyment: The Importance Of Pursuing Enjoyment
Jordan Peterson and Arthur Brooks delve into the distinctions between pleasure and enjoyment, emphasizing the lasting impact of enjoyment.
Pleasure Is Momentary; Enjoyment Is Enduring
Jordan Peterson elucidates that pleasure is a form of immediate gratification that's ephemeral, while enjoyment brings lasting qualities. Arthur Brooks likens pleasure to the fleeting smell of Thanksgiving dinner, whereas happiness, which encompasses enjoyment, is like savoring the meal itself. Brooks also notes that enjoyment is not only more durable but more sophisticated and multi-dimensional than pleasure, which is transient and primal.
Pleasure Is Universal, but Enjoyment Requires Cognitive and Social Integration for Lasting Meaning
Peterson and Brooks discuss pleasure as something even animals can experience, as opposed to enjoyment which encompasses love relationships and necessitates higher cognitive functions. They both agree that enjoyment is about the repeated predictability of rewarding experiences.
Peterson discusses the role of memory in distinguishing ephemeral pleasure from enduring enjoyment. He warns that many behaviors written off as hedonistic or power-hungry can be seen as prolonged immaturity, akin to children's whim-driven behavior. Peterson and Brooks argue that true enjoyment and meaning stem from mature social interactions and collective goals, extending beyond immediate pleasures to lasting relationships.
Pursuing Pure Pleasure Leads To Unsatisfying, Addictive, Self-Destructive Behaviors
Brooks discusses enjoyment as a critical component of well-being, along with satisfaction and meaning. He illustrates this through his leadership courses at Harvard, where he emphasizes the importance of setting goals and shaping a conception of happiness.
Peterson states that, while pleasure is accessible to anyone, enjoyment elevates this pleasure to a stable, lasting state involving a future-oriented, reciprocal, and social outlook.
Enjoyment Involves Love, Memory, and Relationships That Elevate Pleasure Into Meaningful Well-Being
The conversation highlights how enjoyment is an intricate, social interaction that transcends immediate gratification to forge lasting significance through cognitive and social integration. This is exemplified in the playful behavior of rats, where to continue the enjoyment of the game, the larger rat allows the smaller one to win occasionally, demonstrating reciprocity.
As toddlers evolve through social integration, they learn to take turns and make sacrifices, broadening their play and interactions, which symbolizes the shift from impulse-driven pleasure to socially integrated enjoyment.
Peter ...
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Pleasure vs. Enjoyment: The Importance Of Pursuing Enjoyment
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Clarifications
- In a philosophical context, pleasure is described as immediate gratification that is short-lived, while enjoyment is seen as a deeper, more enduring form of satisfaction. Pleasure is often associated with transient experiences, like sensory indulgence, while enjoyment involves cognitive and social integration, leading to lasting meaning and fulfillment. Philosophers like Jordan Peterson and Arthur Brooks explore how pursuing pure pleasure can lead to unsatisfying, addictive behaviors, while emphasizing the importance of seeking enjoyment for lasting well-being and happiness. They discuss how enjoyment involves love, memory, and relationships that elevate mere pleasure into meaningful experiences, emphasizing the role of wisdom and social integration in achieving lasting fulfillment.
- In the comparison of pleasure to the smell of Thanksgiving dinner and happiness to savoring the meal itself, the analogy aims to differentiate between immediate, fleeting gratification (pleasure) and a deeper, more enduring experience (enjoyment). Just as the smell of a meal provides a momentary pleasure, savoring the actual meal represents a more profound and lasting enjoyment. This analogy underscores the idea that pleasure is transient and surface-level, while enjoyment involves a deeper engagement and appreciation that extends beyond the initial sensory experience.
- Enjoyment requiring cognitive and social integration for lasting meaning means that true fulfillment and satisfaction come from engaging in activities that stimulate the mind and involve meaningful social connections. This concept suggests that experiences that challenge us intellectually and emotionally, while also fostering positive relationships with others, contribute to a deeper sense of contentment and purpose in life. By integrating cognitive engagement (such as learning, problem-solving) and social interactions (like bonding, cooperation), individuals can derive long-lasting meaning and satisfaction from their pursuits. This idea emphasizes the importance of not just seeking immediate gratification but investing in experiences that enrich our mental faculties and interpersonal relationships for enduring well-being.
- Pleasure being ennobled by wisdom means that when wisdom guides our pursuit of pleasure, it can transform into a more meaningful and enduring experience. This transformation allows pleasure to transcend its immediate, fleeting nature and become a source of lasting fulfillment. By incorporating wisdom into our pursuit of plea ...
Counterarguments
- Pleasure can also contribute to well-being when experienced in moderation and not pursued to the exclusion of other values.
- Enjoyment, while often more complex, is not inherently superior to pleasure; both can have a place in a balanced life.
- Cognitive and social integration are important, but some individuals may find deep meaning and satisfaction in solitary pursuits or in activities that are not traditionally considered socially integrative.
- The dichotomy between pleasure and enjoyment might be oversimplified, as the two can be interrelated and not always easily distinguishable.
- The pursuit of pleasure, when aligned with one's values and not taken to excess, does not necessarily lead to addictive or self-destructive behaviors.
- ...
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Discernment and Finding True Purpose/Essence
Arthur Brooks, a behavioral scientist, emphasizes the importance of discernment—a deliberate process leading to understanding life's direction—as relevant for progress, happiness, and meaningful existence.
Discernment: Actively Discovering Inherent Purpose and Meaning
Understanding the "why" of one's life requires active engagement with one's inner world. Brooks suggests discernment as a multi-step operation: identify the aim, devise a strategy, and make progress toward it. This process aligns with the philosophical notion that essence precedes existence—a purpose already awaits discovery rather than creation. Brooks relates this to ancient practices where discernment meant more than inventing meaning; it was about uncovering it, a view held by Greek and Hebrew traditions leading into Christianity.
Brooks, who teaches happiness, has expanded his horizons to include media engagement and delving into theology, philosophy, art, and history to comprehend where the most captivating questions originate. He explains discernment as finding one's essence, connected to the concept of a quest or the Jungian hero's journey.
Jordan Peterson joins Brooks in conversation about the significance of discernment in grasping one's life's purpose and meaning. Both suggest life should be seen as an entrepreneurial undertaking, demanding discernment in choices and actions.
Goal of Discernment: Align Actions With Purpose, Not Whims or Idols
Discernment necessitates humility. Brooks’s method, which involves eliminating what isn’t an idol among money, power, pleasure, and honor, helps clarify driving forces and values. Peterson views discernment as asking oneself about life’s satisfaction conditions, an approach of treating oneself as somewhat unknown, uncovering what genuinely satisfies.
Brooks's discernment journey included the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage, daily prayers, and seeking divine guidance. Peterson and Brooks talk about aiming "upwards" and the role of prayer and imagination in yearning for progress, indicating man's openness to insights surpassing immediate desires.
Additionally, Brooks discusses the neurological foundation of discernment, suggesting the right brain hemisphere quests for life’s larger questions without immediate answers but requiring understanding. This exploration entails engaging the default mode network, which often feels uncomfortable due to our natural adversity to boredom. Activities such as walking and repetitive prayer stimulate the right brain, crucial for contemplation and openness in discovering inherent purpose.
Peterson highlights the significance of religious humility and reassessing one's desires. He advocates an ongoing relationship with learning and uncovering genuine desires, while Brooks warns against chasing dreams that could lead to later regrets.
Brooks credits his Christian faith as central to his existence, being exemplified by the actions of his scientist father who demonstrated humility in devout prayer, profoundly impacting Brooks.
They use Job’s story to illustrate steadfastness d ...
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Discernment and Finding True Purpose/Essence
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Counterarguments
- Essence may not necessarily precede existence; existentialist philosophers like Jean-Paul Sartre argue that existence precedes essence, suggesting that individuals create their own purpose through choices and actions.
- The process of discernment might not be as linear or clear-cut as suggested; it can be a complex, non-linear journey with many potential paths and outcomes.
- The idea that purpose awaits discovery could be seen as deterministic and might not resonate with those who believe in the fluidity and evolving nature of personal purpose.
- The emphasis on humility and the elimination of idols like money, power, pleasure, and honor could be criticized for potentially oversimplifying human motivation and the complexity of what drives individuals.
- The neurological foundation of discernment, while interesting, may not be fully understood, and the role of the right brain hemisphere could be more nuanced than presented.
- The focus on religious and spiritual practices in the discernment process may not be universally applicable or resonate with individuals who are non-religious or adhere to different belief systems.
- The use of a "business plan" for life could be criticized for imposing a structured, corporate framework on personal growth, which may not be suitable for everyone's journey.
- The idea of aligning actions with purpose rather than whims or idols might not account for the value of spontaneity, ...
Actionables
- Create a "Life's Purpose Journal" where you reflect daily on actions that felt meaningful and why they resonated with you, to better understand your inherent purpose.
- Keeping a dedicated journal allows you to track patterns over time, revealing what consistently brings you a sense of fulfillment. For example, if you notice that helping others makes you feel purposeful, you might explore careers or volunteer opportunities in social work or mentoring.
- Develop a "Values Map" by listing your top five values and evaluating your weekly activities to see how they align with these values.
- This map acts as a personal guide to ensure your actions are in harmony with what you truly value. For instance, if one of your values is creativity, but your week is filled with monotonous tasks, you might seek out a new hobby like painting or writing to incorporate more creativity into your life.
- Engage in a monthly "Purpose Workshop" with fr ...
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Role of Self-Transcendence and Avoiding Self-Centeredness In a Meaningful Life
Arthur Brooks and Jordan Peterson dig into the importance of self-transcendence in living a meaningful life and the obstacles presented by narcissism and other dark traits.
Narcissism Blocks Awe, Gratitude, and Self-Transcendence
Dark Personality Traits Hinder Emotional Connections and Happiness
Arthur Brooks discusses the dark triad of personality traits—narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and sadism—pointing out they are barriers that prevent the experience of self-transcendence and associated happiness. Jordan Peterson speaks about people who desire power, suggesting this comfort with power dynamics can align with self-centered behavior. Brooks also hints that narcissistic individuals admire other dictators, drawn to the display of power. The conversation points to the dark traits found in Cain's story and his descendants, implying they lead to a life without meaningful connections.
Brooks and Peterson also explore how these traits prevent individuals from learning from experience, as psychopaths don't care for others or their future selves and don't learn from remorse. Brooks emphasizes that self-control can counter narcissistic impulses, suggesting humility as a step towards self-transcendence.
Cultivating Self-Transcendence Through Spirituality, Nature, or Helping Others, Puts Desires In Perspective and Reveals Deeper Meaning and Fulfillment
Self-Transcendence: Recognizing the Self As Part of a Larger, Interconnected Whole Deserving Reverence and Care
The speakers discuss transcending hedonistic happiness and how focusing solely on self-centered pleasures can block the path to fulfillment. They advocate for self-transcendence, a recognition of self as part of a larger, interconnected whole.
Brooks shares an anecdote about the Dalai Lama being profoundly affected by a photo of Earth, revealing smallness and peace in self-transcendence. Peterson suggests humans are driven more by the hunt for goals than by goal attainment, mentioning Jacob's ladder as a symbol of unending as ...
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Role of Self-Transcendence and Avoiding Self-Centeredness In a Meaningful Life
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Counterarguments
- While narcissism and other dark traits can hinder emotional connections, not all individuals with these traits are incapable of meaningful relationships or self-transcendence; some may find alternative pathways to connection and fulfillment.
- The desire for power does not necessarily lead to self-centered behavior; in some cases, it can be channeled towards positive leadership and societal contributions.
- The interpretation of Cain's story and its implications for modern life can vary widely, and some may argue that it should not be used to generalize about human behavior or personality traits.
- Psychopathy is a complex and varied condition, and while some psychopaths may lack remorse, others might still learn from experiences in different ways or may not fit the stereotype.
- Self-control is important, but it may not be sufficient to counter deeply ingrained narcissistic impulses without additional interventions such as therapy.
- Spirituality, nature, and helping others are not the only paths to self-transcendence; some individuals may find meaning through intellectual pursuits, artistic expression, or other secular activities.
- The concept of self-transcendence may not resonate with everyone, and some may find meaning in life through personal achievements or individualistic pursuits.
- The idea that focusing solely on self-centered pleasures blocks fulfillment is not universally true; some individuals may derive deep satisfaction from ...
Actionables
- You can enhance your emotional connections by volunteering for a cause that requires teamwork, such as a community clean-up or a group charity event, which will naturally shift your focus from self-centered behaviors to collaborative efforts and foster a sense of belonging.
- Volunteering in a team setting not only helps you contribute to a greater good but also puts you in situations where you must work with others, listen to their ideas, and share a common goal. This can diminish traits like narcissism and Machiavellianism as you experience firsthand the joy and fulfillment that come from meaningful connections and shared achievements.
- Start a 'gratitude journey' with a friend or family member where you both share one thing you're grateful for each day, either through a shared journal or a digital platform, to cultivate a habit of gratitude and awe in your daily life.
- Sharing expressions of gratitude with someone else can create a mutual appreciation for the world around you and the people in it. This practice can help counteract narcissistic tendencies by regularly acknowledging the contributions and value of others, as well as the beauty in experiences that are not self-centered.
- Introduce a 'digital detox' day once a week where you disconnect ...
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Integrating Work, Relationships, and Spirituality For Fulfillment
The concept of integrating multiple facets of life to achieve fulfillment is central to human flourishing. Arthur Brooks contends that understanding oneself and orienting towards a higher goal are essential for a meaningful life. This article delves into how the integration of work, relationships, and spirituality fosters happiness and meaning.
Integrating Work, Relationships, and Beliefs For Fulfillment
Brooks and Jordan Peterson discuss the harmony that results from blending professional, interpersonal, and existential pursuits. Arthur Brooks promotes the idea of life being a mission, stressing the need to be generative, creative, and loving. This approach elevates daily labor beyond mere economic activity, positioning it as an expressive extension of individual identity and purpose.
Separating "Work" From "Personal Life" Leads To Alienation and Superficial Pleasures to Compensate For Unmet Needs
Brooks challenges the conventional notion of "work-life balance," critiquing the false dichotomy that suggests work is not part of life. This separation, he argues, leads to alienation and self-objectification, which can compel individuals towards superficial pleasures as a compensation for their unmet needs. Instead, Brooks suggests that work should be seen as another expression of who we are.
Furthermore, Peterson contrasts happiness with gratification, elucidating that true happiness results from deeper satisfaction rather than fleeting pleasures. This implies that meaningfulness stems from an integrated life encompassing work, relationships, and personal values.
The pursuit of money, power, pleasure, and prestige as ends in themselves, as discussed by Thomas Aquinas, can lead to alienation rather than true fulfillment. Chasing these "idols," Brooks suggests, diverts us from seeking a higher purpose or divinity, which ultimately provides genuine fulfillment.
Happiness and Meaning Arise When Professional, Interpersonal, and Existential Quests Enhance Each Other
Integration Requires Self-Awareness, Discernment, and Willingness to Make Sacrifices For Human Flourishing
Integration demands self-awareness, discernment, and sometimes sacrifice. Peterson's reflection on money opening up avenues of possibility indicates that financial means can facilitate a harmonious blend of life's domains. At the same time, discernment and taste can stand i ...
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Integrating Work, Relationships, and Spirituality For Fulfillment
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Clarifications
- The concept of life as a mission emphasizes viewing one's existence as a purposeful journey towards personal growth and contribution to the world. Being generative involves creating and producing meaningful outcomes that benefit oneself and others. Creativity encourages thinking outside the box and approaching life with innovation and originality. Love plays a central role in fostering connections, empathy, and a sense of fulfillment in both personal and professional endeavors.
- The critique of the conventional notion of "work-life balance" challenges the idea that work and personal life should be kept separate. It argues that viewing work as a distinct entity can lead to feelings of alienation and a sense of detachment from one's true self. Instead, the concept suggests integrating work as a meaningful part of life, emphasizing that work is an expression of individual identity and purpose. This approach aims to foster a more holistic and fulfilling existence by aligning professional endeavors with personal values and relationships.
- Thomas Aquinas, a prominent medieval philosopher and theologian, discussed the pursuit of money, power, pleasure, and prestige as potential pitfalls when sought for their own sake. He argued that when these pursuits become the ultimate goals, they can lead individuals away from true fulfillment and virtue. Aquinas emphasized the importance of aligning these desires with higher purposes and moral principles to achieve genuine fulfillment and happiness. His teachings caution against prioritizing material gains and worldly success over spiritual and ethical values in the quest for a meaningful life.
- In the context of discernment and taste standing in for wealth, it means that having good judgment and refined preferences can substitute for having abundant financial resources. This suggests that one can achieve ...
Counterarguments
- The integration of work, relationships, and spirituality may not be universally applicable or desirable for all individuals, as some may find fulfillment in focusing more heavily on one aspect over the others.
- The concept of a higher goal is subjective and may not resonate with those who are non-religious or who have a more pragmatic view of life.
- The idea that separating work from personal life inherently leads to alienation might overlook the benefits of maintaining professional boundaries for mental health and well-being.
- The assumption that true happiness comes from deeper satisfaction could be challenged by perspectives that value a diversity of experiences, including both deep and superficial pleasures.
- The pursuit of money, power, pleasure, and prestige is not inherently alienating for everyone; some individuals may find these pursuits fulfilling in their own right or as means to other ends.
- The notion that integration requires self-awareness and discernment might not account for the role of external factors, such as socioeconomic status or cultural expectations, which can limit an individual's ability to integrate different life aspects.
- The idea that financial means facilitate a harmonious blend of life's domains could be seen as overlooking the experiences of those who find fulfillment despite financial constraints.
- The emphasis on discernment and taste aligning material success with values may not acknowledge the complexities and challenges faced by individuals in environments wher ...
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