516. Michael Malice: A Clinical Analysis
In this episode of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Peterson and guest Michael Malice delve into the complexity of the self and the importance of integrating various drives and motivations for psychological wellbeing. They analyze the dynamics of power, authority, and totalitarianism, cautioning about the dangers of extreme views and the appeal yet pitfalls of authoritarian control.
The discussion explores the role of cultural narratives, stories, and mythological archetypes in shaping perceptions. Peterson and Malice also grapple with the depths of human cruelty and moral depravity, attempting to comprehend the motivations behind heinous acts against innocents and the challenges society faces in confronting such evils.
This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the Jan 20, 2025 episode of the The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
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1-Page Summary
The Self, Self-Actualization, and Human Psychology
The Complexity of Self-Integration
Jordan Peterson explains that the self is organized on multiple levels, with basic drives and motivations each having their own "selves." He suggests immaturity is akin to cycling through these drives without integration. Part of this integration, per Peterson, involves planning for a satisfying future that accounts for drives, personality, and relationships.
Peterson proposes that psychological health requires harmonizing various levels of self: reflexes, personality, social roles, etc. He argues mental health involves voluntary relationships, not just individual achievement.
The Limitations of Self-Actualization as a Goal
Peterson claims focusing only on self-actualization neglects relationships and future orientation. He stresses that a mother's happiness is tied to her children's wellbeing, highlighting the interconnectedness of human fulfillment.
While Michael Malice expresses a desire for control over his environment, he acknowledges tensions with collective workplace expectations.
The Dynamics of Power, Authority, and Totalitarianism
Danger of Prioritizing Self and Demonizing Center
Malice warns demonizing the mainstream center enables extreme views to go unchecked. Peterson likens the collapsed center to entropic chaos and anxiety.
Powerful People Exploit Others to Game the System
Peterson discusses how powerful entities like the military schools system cement control and uplift their moral status. Malice suggests holding extreme views grants a sense of moral superiority, and power players exploit rules for personal gain.
The Appeal and Pitfalls of Authoritarian Control
Recounting Stalin's paranoia and North Korean propaganda, they illustrate how authoritarians wield fear, force, and falsehoods to retain power.
Peterson cautions even well-intentioned people can be exploited by the power-hungry. Malice cites COVID lockdowns as an example of people's compliance enabling authoritarianism.
The Role of Stories, Narratives, and Mythological Archetypes
Cultural Narratives' Role in Shaping Perception
Peterson highlights how stories and religious texts provide frameworks for interpreting experiences. The declining familiarity with biblical stories hinders mutual understanding.
The Significance of Archetypal Figures Like the Trickster
The Trickster archetype, per their examples, relates to transformation and disruption within narratives, playfully introducing new perspectives. Positive tricksters use humor to engage; negative ones sow discord.
The Problem of Evil and Human Depravity
Depths of Human Cruelty and Moral Inversion
Malice expresses horror at individuals harming the defenseless like children - the worst sin, per Peterson. Peterson suggests pursuing grievous harms against innocents elevates one's perceived moral status.
The Difficulty in Comprehending Extreme Evil
Peterson finds it daunting to grasp motivations behind acts like the Holocaust and Gulag, which even experts struggle to comprehend fully.
He asserts many avoid discussing such disturbing evils, reflecting society's reluctance to confront the depths of human depravity.
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Clarifications
- Self-actualization is the realization of one's potential and the pursuit of personal growth and fulfillment. It involves striving to become the best version of oneself and achieving one's goals and aspirations. However, focusing solely on self-actualization without considering relationships and societal responsibilities can lead to a narrow perspective on personal development and well-being. It's essential to balance self-actualization with a broader understanding of interconnectedness and the impact of our actions on others.
- The dynamics of power, authority, and totalitarianism involve the ways in which individuals or groups exert control over others, often through hierarchical structures and systems of governance. Totalitarianism represents an extreme form of authoritarian control where the state seeks to regulate all aspects of public and private life. Understanding these dynamics requires examining how power is wielded, how authority is established, and the consequences of unchecked authoritarianism on society.
- Stories, narratives, and mythological archetypes play a crucial role in shaping our understanding of the world. They provide frameworks for interpreting experiences and conveying cultural values. Mythological archetypes, like the Trickster, represent universal patterns of behavior and themes that recur in storytelling across different cultures. These narratives help us make sense of complex ideas and emotions through symbolic representations.
- The problem of evil and human depravity delves into the existence of suffering and wickedness in the world, questioning how these aspects coexist with notions of a benevolent higher power or moral order. It explores the depths of human cruelty and the capacity for individuals to commit heinous acts, often without clear justification. This topic involves grappling with the moral complexities surrounding extreme evil, such as atrocities like the Holocaust, and the challenges in comprehending the motivations behind such horrific events. Discussions on human depravity often highlight the reluctance of society to confront and acknowledge the darkest aspects of human nature.
- Jordan Peterson is a Canadian psychologist and author known for his views on self-improvement, psychology, and societal issues. He emphasizes personal responsibility, individual growth, and the importance of integrating different aspects of the self for psychological well-being.
Michael Malice is an American author, podcaster, and political commentator known for his provocative and contrarian perspectives. He often critiques mainstream ideologies and explores themes related to power dynamics, authority, and individual freedom.
Counterarguments
- While self-integration is important, some argue that a degree of dissonance within the self can drive creativity and change.
- The concept of psychological health being tied to harmonizing various levels of self might be too simplistic, as mental health is complex and influenced by a myriad of factors beyond voluntary relationships and individual achievement.
- The idea that focusing solely on self-actualization neglects relationships may not account for the fact that for some, self-actualization inherently includes the betterment of relationships and community engagement.
- The assertion that a mother's happiness is tied to her children's wellbeing could be seen as reductive, as it may not encompass the full spectrum of a mother's identity or sources of happiness.
- The claim that demonizing the mainstream center enables extreme views to go unchecked might overlook the potential for the center to harbor its own forms of extremism or complacency in the face of injustice.
- The notion that powerful entities exploit others to maintain control could be challenged by the perspective that some institutions may also foster positive change and social order.
- The view that compliance enables authoritarianism, as seen in COVID lockdowns, might be countered by the argument that public health measures are not inherently authoritarian but can be necessary responses to crises.
- The importance placed on stories and religious texts in shaping perception might be contested by those who emphasize the role of empirical evidence and rational thought in understanding the world.
- The idea that declining familiarity with biblical stories hinders mutual understanding may not consider the diverse sources of wisdom and moral guidance found in other cultures and belief systems.
- The Trickster archetype's significance could be debated, with some arguing that other archetypes or narrative devices play equally or more important roles in cultural narratives.
- The assertion that harming the defenseless is the worst sin might be challenged by ethical frameworks that do not prioritize sins or moral failings in a hierarchical manner.
- The difficulty in comprehending extreme evil acts like the Holocaust and Gulag could be met with the argument that through education and empathetic engagement, society can and should strive to understand and prevent such atrocities.
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The Self, Self-Actualization, and Human Psychology
Jordan Peterson and Michael Malice engage in a conversation exploring the complexities of the self, the process of becoming integrated, self-actualization, and the limitations of focusing solely on the self for psychological harmony and health.
The Complexity of Self-Integration
Self-Organized: Drives, Personality, Relationships
Jordan Peterson explains that the self is organized on multiple levels. Using a neurobiological analogy, he describes how basic motivational states such as lust, hunger, and defensive aggression have their associated 'selves,' with Nietzsche observing that each drive comes with its unique worldview. Jordan Peterson views poor socialization or immaturity as akin to a toddler cycling through these states without integration. As part of this integration process, Peterson discusses a program called Future Authoring that assists individuals in laying out plans for a satisfying future, taking into account personal drives, personality, and relationships.
Balancing the Self for Psychological Harmony and Health
Peterson elaborates on maturation, suggesting it involves integrating basic motivational states to include the wellbeing of others and the future, not just the self. Mental health might be more about harmony across various levels of self, including reflexes, personality, social interactions, and societal roles. He argues that psychological health and sanity require harmonious relationships that are playful and voluntary, not just individual achievement. Peterson reinforces this by stating the importance of a future that isn't "swamped by misery," a state that balances different aspects of life.
The Limitations of Self-Actualization as a Goal
Self-Actualization Can Neglect Social Relationships and Future Orientation
Peterson suggests that self-actualization is limited when it neglects social relationships and future orientation. He stresses that no mother is happier than her most unhappy child, an adage pointing out the deeply interconnected nature of human wellbeing and the importance of considering others. Focusing only on maximizing one's present self can lead to impulsive behavior and overlook the future, potentially leading to loneliness, as others might be put-off by a very self-centered individual.
Fulfillment Comes From Finding Purpose and Contributing Beyond the Self
While there was no direct information provided about fulfillment coming from finding purpose and contr ...
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The Self, Self-Actualization, and Human Psychology
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Clarifications
- The Future Authoring program is a tool developed by Jordan Peterson that helps individuals create a detailed plan for their future, taking into account their personal drives, personality, and relationships. It aims to assist in the process of self-integration and maturation by encouraging individuals to consider their goals and aspirations in various aspects of life. The program is designed to promote psychological health and well-being by guiding individuals towards a future that aligns with their values and desires. It emphasizes the importance of balancing personal fulfillment with considerations for others and the broader social environment.
- Nietzsche observed that each basic motivational drive, like lust or hunger, is associated with its unique worldview. This means that different fundamental desires can shape how individuals perceive and interact with the world around them. Nietzsche's insight highlights the deep connection between our internal drives and the way we understand and engage with reality.
- The Biblical story of God speaking to Abraham is a significant event in the Book of Genesis where God commands Abraham to leave his homeland and go to a new land that God will show him. This event is known as the Call of Abraham and marks the beginning of God's covenant with Abraham, promising him descendants and blessings. It is a foundational story in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, highlighting Abraham's faith and obedience to God's will. This story is often interpreted as a demonstration of trust in divine guidance and the importance of following one's calling or purpose in life.
- Michael Malice's approach to self-actualization involves seeking control over his environment, aligning his work with his natural rhythms, and avoiding unwanted social interactions. He emphasizes a desire for self-determined purpose, even if it may not align with collective expectations in a workplace setting. This approach reflects his focus on personal autonomy and individual fulfillment, highlighting the importance of fi ...
Counterarguments
- Self-organization and integration may not be as linear or structured as the Future Authoring program suggests; human psychology can be more chaotic and less predictable.
- The concept of integrating basic motivational states might oversimplify the complexity of human emotions and experiences.
- The idea that psychological health requires harmony across various levels of self could be challenged by the notion that conflict and tension can also lead to growth and self-discovery.
- The emphasis on voluntary and playful relationships might not acknowledge the value and necessity of more structured or obligatory social roles and responsibilities.
- The focus on avoiding a future "swamped by misery" could be criticized for potentially encouraging avoidance of necessary but uncomfortable life challenges.
- The critique of self-actualization for neglecting social relationships and future orientation might not consider that for some individuals, self-actualization inherently includes these aspects.
- The assertion that no mother is happier than her most unhappy child could be seen as an overgeneralization and not applicable to all individuals or circumstances.
- The idea that fulfillment comes from contributing beyond the self might not resonate with those who find deep satisfaction in personal achievements or solitary pursuits.
- The suggestion that following one's adventurous instincts leads to a life that blesses others could be challenged by pointing out that not all personal adventures lead to positive outcome ...
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The Dynamics of Power, Authority, and Totalitarianism
The discussion with Jordan Peterson and Michael Malice delves into the perils of ignoring the potential for malevolence in humans, the hazardous consequences of marginalizing more moderate perspectives, and how authoritarian figures can manipulate systems for personal gain while propagating falsehoods to maintain power.
Danger Of Prioritizing Self and Demonizing Center
Marginalizing the Center Risks Fragmentation and Extremes
Michael reflects on the potential dangers of idolizing exceptional individuals while disparaging the norm. When the center dissolves, he suggests, it can lead to catastrophic outcomes, where diversity and creativity plummet into monstrous and hazardous territory. The absence of a centered political discourse, Malice points out, enables extreme views to become self-validating, filling the debate with unintelligent statements.
Peterson illustrates the center as archetypally masculine and ideally solid, cautioning that its collapse can lead to entropic chaos akin to a hydra sprouting multiple heads, which could provoke anxiety and paralysis.
Powerful People Exploit Others to Game the System and Elevate Moral Status
There's a dialogue about the counterproductive nature of moralizing and its impact on psychological and political behavior. Peterson points to the Prussian military model that informed school systems designed to generate obedient citizens, revealing how potent entities may utilize structures like education to cement their control and uplift their own moral or social status.
Malice proposes that holding extreme or "insane" views grants an individual a sense of social or moral superiority, akin to being initiated into higher "mysteries." They highlight how in competitive sports, athletes exploit systems, such as manipulating body weight for competitive advantage. This echoes the notion that powerful individuals may exploit rules to game the system for personal gain.
The Appeal and Pitfalls of Authoritarian Control
Authoritarians Wield Fear, Force, and Falsehoods to Retain Power
Malice and Peterson's dialogue paints a chilling picture of Stalin's regime, where the Soviet leader's cynical and distrustful view of humanity spiraled into a deadly cycle of betrayal and fear, showcasing how a self-centered perspective can result in a dysfunctional and exploitative system.
Peterson warns of the dangers posed by malevolent individuals, implying that even well-intentioned people can become instruments for those in pursuit of power.
Malice recounts the deliberate effort to alter photographs of Kim Il-sung to hide a tumor, propping up the ...
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The Dynamics of Power, Authority, and Totalitarianism
Additional Materials
Clarifications
- Jordan Peterson and Michael Malice are public intellectuals known for their commentary on politics, psychology, and culture. They often engage in discussions and debates on various topics, offering contrasting perspectives that spark critical thinking and analysis. Peterson is a clinical psychologist and professor, while Malice is a political commentator and author. Their conversations typically delve into complex issues such as power dynamics, authoritarianism, individual responsibility, and societal structures.
- The Prussian military model influenced school systems by emphasizing discipline, obedience, and hierarchical structures in education. This approach aimed to produce obedient citizens and instill values of duty and loyalty to the state. The system prioritized regimentation and conformity to authority, shaping the educational landscape in Prussia and later influencing educational practices in other countries. The Prussian model's impact on schooling has been debated for its role in shaping modern educational philosophies and practices.
- In certain competitive sports, athletes may manipulate their body weight strategically to gain a competitive advantage. This can involve methods like cutting weight before weigh-ins and then rehydrating before competition to compete in a lower weight class. Such practices are controversial due to concerns about their impact on athletes' health and the fairness of competition.
- Stalin's regime in the Soviet Union was characterized by extreme authoritarianism, political repression, and widespread purges to eliminate perceived threats to his power. Stalin's policies led to mass atrocities, including forced labor camps (Gulags) and the man-made famine in Ukraine known as the Holodomor. His regime instilled fear through a pervasive system of surveillance and propaganda, creating a climate of terror and mistrust among the population. Stalin's cult of personality portrayed him as a strong and infallible leader, while in reality, his rule was marked by brutality and the suppression of dissent.
- Altering photographs of Kim Il-sung: In totalitarian regimes like North Korea, altering photographs of leaders is a common practice to maintain a specific image of power and authority. These alterations are often used to portray leaders in a favorable light, hiding any imperfections or vulnerabilities. It is a form of propaganda aimed at reinforcing the leader's cult of personality and projecting an idealized image to the public. This manipulation of visual media is a tool used by authoritarian regimes to control narratives and shape public perception.
- During the COVID-19 pandemic, governments around the world implemented lockdowns to curb the spread of the virus. In some cases, concerns have been raised about how these measures could be exploited by author ...
Counterarguments
- The center is not always the optimal political position; sometimes, significant change requires more radical ideas and actions.
- Extreme views do not always lead to negative outcomes; they can sometimes be the catalyst for necessary social reform and progress.
- The concept of the center being archetypally masculine could be challenged as an outdated or overly simplistic view of gender roles and political discourse.
- The exploitation of systems by powerful individuals is not always for personal gain; it can also be argued that some exploit systems to enact what they believe to be positive changes for the greater good.
- Not all forms of authority and obedience are negative; structured systems can provide stability and order, which are necessary for a functioning society.
- The idea that everything in totalitarian systems is a lie may b ...
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The Role of Stories, Narratives, and Mythological Archetypes
Jordan Peterson and Michael Malice delve into the function of stories, narratives, and mythological archetypes, the latter including figures such as the Trickster, and how they influence perception and meaning within societies.
Cultural Narratives' Role In Shaping Perception and Meaning
Stories Provide Frameworks Individuals Use to Interpret Experiences
Jordan Peterson highlights the role of stories in determining which principle should be superordinate, paralleling the divine in Abrahamic traditions with the voice of adventure that leads people toward beneficial outcomes. He suggests that religious texts and shared cultural narratives are structured as stories that help prioritize an infinite number of facts into coherent interpretations of experiences.
Carl Jung’s concept of the archetype, exemplified by the figure of Christ, underscores the use of religious figures in providing frameworks through which individuals understand their experiences and themselves.
Loss of Common Narrative Structures Hinders Mutual Understanding
The declining familiarity with biblical stories, Peterson mentions, has diminished a unifying foundation for perceptions, complicating mutual understanding when variations in these foundations become extreme.
The Significance of Archetypal Figures Like the Trickster
Although a detailed discussion on the Trickster archetype wasn't explicitly reviewed, given elements of the conversations, the Trickster can be related to transformation and disruption within narratives.
Peterson talks about kinds of archetypes like the apocalypse, highlighting the relevance of crisis and how this fits into the concept of the Trickster introducing chaos or disruption. He cites Soviet propaganda campaigns feigning enthusiasm for Stalin as a form of black comedy—possibly related to the Trickster’s energy—which operated as a safety valve under oppressive rule.
Another metaphor involves the hydra arising from a collapsed ideal center, pertaining to the Trickster archetype introducing a multiplicity of choices and pathways, leading to entropy and indecision.
Tricksters as Agents of Transformational Disruption
The hosts discuss tricksters in various contexts, including societal narratives. The anecdote of Kim Jong Il testing amusement park rides portrays a leader in a positive light, which can be construed as Trickster work in mythologizing authority.
...
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The Role of Stories, Narratives, and Mythological Archetypes
Additional Materials
Clarifications
- Mythological archetypes are recurring symbols, characters, or themes found in myths, folklore, and literature that represent universal human experiences and emotions. These archetypes, like the Trickster, embody fundamental aspects of human nature and serve as symbolic templates that help individuals interpret the world around them. By tapping into these archetypes, stories and narratives can evoke deep emotional responses and provide frameworks for understanding complex ideas and experiences. The influence of mythological archetypes on perception and meaning lies in their ability to resonate with universal truths and offer insights into the human psyche and society.
- The Trickster archetype in narratives embodies chaos, transformation, and disruption. It challenges established norms, introducing uncertainty and change. By provoking fear and dismantling existing structures, the Trickster paves the way for new perspectives and possibilities. It serves as a catalyst for growth and evolution within stories and societal frameworks.
- The Trickster archetype represents a figure in mythology known for causing disruption and challenging societal norms. In narratives, the Trickster introduces chaos and change, often leading to transformation and new perspectives. This archetype symbolizes the breaking down of established structures to make way for innovation and growth. By embodying unpredictability and unconventional behavior, the Trickster serves as a catalyst for challenging the status quo and prompting individuals to reconsider their beliefs and actions.
- Positive tricksters typically ...
Counterarguments
- Stories and religious figures may provide frameworks for understanding, but they are not the only means; scientific theories and empirical evidence also play a significant role in shaping our interpretations of experiences.
- While biblical stories may have historically provided a unifying foundation, the diversification of cultural narratives can also enrich mutual understanding by introducing a variety of perspectives.
- The Trickster archetype, while often associated with chaos and disruption, can also be seen as a force for creativity and innovation, which is not always negative or leading to entropy.
- The impact of Tricksters in narratives might be overstated; not all societal change can be attributed to such figures, as there are many complex factors at play in social transformation.
- The dichotomy between positive and negative tricksters ...
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The Problem of Evil and Human Depravity
Peterson and Malice delve into the complexities of evil, highlighting the profound depths of human cruelty and the challenges in understanding the motivations behind extreme acts of depravity.
Depths of Human Cruelty and Moral Inversion
Some Pursue Grievous Harms Against the Vulnerable
Malice is disturbed by the existence of communities that share harmful content involving children, finding it incomprehensible that individuals would harm those who are so defenseless. Peterson echoes this sentiment, describing the targeting of children as the worst sin. His allusion to Christ's words emphasizes harming children as akin to the worst kind of evil, depicting a perverse delight in harming the most innocent as the ultimate affront to reality and being.
Desire to Elevate Moral Status Can Conceal Horrific Crimes
Peterson illustrates the concept of inviting in evil, which could lead to actions like shooting up an elementary school, described as the desolation of the innocent and a way for a wrongdoer to feel in command of the cosmos. He suggests that by inverting moral rules, such as hurting the innocent, one demonstrates their ability to defy expectations. In discussing his book on North Korea and reflecting on the biblical story of Cain and Abel, Malice speaks to the horrifying concealment of horrific crimes through false images or justifications.
The Difficulty In Comprehending Extreme Evil
Peterson reflects on the complexity of comprehending extreme evil, a task which is difficult even for experts such as psychiatrists. He narrates his extensive readings of Carl Jung and Friedrich Nietzsche in an attempt to understand evil and the challenges of teaching topics like the Holocaust and the Gulag Archipelago. He finds it deeply complex and daunting to grasp the motivations behind actions such as those of Carl Panzram and infamous figures like Lavrentiy Beria. He emphasizes the general reluctance to acknowledge the reality of such extreme evil, indicating that many avo ...
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The Problem of Evil and Human Depravity
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Actionables
- You can deepen your empathy by volunteering with organizations that support victims of cruelty, such as shelters or helplines. By offering your time and listening to the stories of those affected by extreme acts, you'll gain a firsthand understanding of the complexities surrounding human depravity and the resilience of the human spirit.
- Start a personal journal to reflect on instances where you've witnessed or learned about moral inversions, like someone harming the innocent. Writing down your thoughts and feelings about these situations can help you confront uncomfortable truths and develop a more nuanced perspective on human behavior.
- Engage in mindful media consumption ...
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