Episode 500: What a Long Strange Trip it's Been | Dave Rubin
The modern media landscape and its impact on discourse is a key topic in this episode with Dave Rubin and Jordan Peterson. They explore how new media platforms amplify independent voices, eroding the dominance of legacy media and its perceived biases. The episode delves into how contrasting liberal and conservative worldviews contribute to polarization in today's political climate, underscoring the need for open dialogue.
Peterson delves into biblical themes, extracting insights about the human condition and the transformative power of truth. Reflecting on their collaborative friendship over the past eight years, Rubin and Peterson discuss their shared mission of expanding discourse boundaries through new media while facing backlash and censorship attempts. Their conversation reiterates fundamental truths about free speech and inquiry that have defined their work.
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1-Page Summary
The rise of new media and its impact on discourse and politics
Rubin and Peterson were early adopters of new media, harnessing platforms like podcasts and YouTube to reach large audiences for meaningful dialogues. They suggest these outlets have opened honest discourse by elevating independent voices over legacy media constrained by corporate interests. New media figures like Rubin and Peterson often outperform legacy channels by countering misinformation and offering diverse perspectives.
The new media landscape has catalyzed significant political and cultural shifts, with alternative perspectives challenging dominant narratives.
Rubin discusses hosting guests across the ideological spectrum, from Ben Shapiro to Glenn Beck. Peterson and Rubin argue new media erodes ideological silos, threatening legacy media's power and credibility. They highlight struggles including Joe Rogan's attempted YouTube censorship and algorithmic manipulation affecting Rubin's channel, contrasted with new media's ability to debunk hoaxes and present unconventional narratives without corporate agendas.
Contrasting liberal and conservative worldviews
Peterson observes liberal individualism functions best with a stable social fabric. But as core Western values erode, he argues, pure liberal worldviews expose societal flaws. Rubin suggests some liberals allow destructive ideologies to infiltrate politics by failing to uphold democratic principles.
The liberal-conservative divide has become polarized, with each side seeing the other as a threat. Peterson and Rubin emphasize the need for open dialogue and shared democratic foundations to resolve this polarization.
Peterson's exploration of biblical themes
Peterson explores biblical narratives like Cain and Abel, Abraham, and the Tower of Babel, unpacking insights into the human condition, sacrifice, pride, and truth-seeking. He argues these stories reinforce transcendent values threatened in modern times.
According to Peterson, the biblical framework illustrates moral lessons and consequences of chaos or unchecked order. Stories like Abraham's represent a blueprint for personal fulfillment translating to societal benefit, countering decay with transformative truth.
Reflections on the past 8 years in the "intellectual dark web"
Recalling their early interactions around Peterson's Canadian controversies, Rubin and Peterson reflect on their collaborative friendship coinciding with the rise of new media.
Their successful joint 2018 tour exemplified new media's ability to facilitate honest public discourse. However, they've faced censorship backlash, reinforcing their conviction in defending free speech and open inquiry.
Despite challenges, Rubin and Peterson intend to continue amplifying voices that expand discourse boundaries, reiterating fundamental truths as they navigate the evolving cultural landscape.
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Counterarguments
- New media platforms also have their own biases and can create echo chambers, potentially reinforcing rather than challenging ideological silos.
- The claim that new media figures consistently counter misinformation may be contested, as these platforms can also spread misinformation.
- The assertion that legacy media is solely constrained by corporate interests overlooks the fact that many journalists and outlets strive for rigorous editorial standards and journalistic integrity.
- The idea that liberal individualism is failing due to an eroding social fabric could be seen as a narrow interpretation of current societal challenges, which may also be influenced by economic, technological, and other complex factors.
- The suggestion that some liberals are allowing destructive ideologies into politics is a broad generalization that may not account for the diversity of thought and opinion within liberal circles.
- The polarization between liberals and conservatives is a multifaceted issue, and the solution may not be as simple as just open dialogue and shared democratic foundations.
- While Peterson's use of biblical narratives provides one framework for understanding moral lessons, alternative viewpoints may find equal or greater value in other philosophical, religious, or cultural narratives.
- The concept of the "intellectual dark web" as a space for honest discourse is not universally accepted, and some critics argue that it can sometimes promote fringe or controversial viewpoints without sufficient critical analysis.
- The commitment to free speech and open inquiry by figures like Rubin and Peterson may be seen as selective by critics who argue that they may not always engage with or provide a platform for certain dissenting voices.
- The goal to amplify voices that expand discourse boundaries is subjective, and what constitutes a "fundamental truth" can vary greatly among different individuals and cultures.
Actionables
- You can foster open dialogue by starting a book club focused on texts that explore diverse perspectives and democratic principles. Choose books from authors with varying viewpoints to encourage discussions that challenge ideological silos. For example, read a book by a classical liberal one month and a conservative author the next, then compare their ideas in your discussions.
- Enhance your understanding of human nature by creating personal reflections or journal entries inspired by ancient narratives. After reading a story from a religious or philosophical text, write down how its themes apply to modern life and your personal experiences, focusing on values like sacrifice and truth-seeking.
- Encourage a culture of free speech by curating a personal blog or social media page where you share and discuss content from a variety of new media sources. Highlight voices that offer alternative viewpoints and contribute to the discourse, ensuring you include content that spans the political spectrum to combat polarization.
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The rise of new media and its impact on discourse and politics
Rubin and Peterson explore the emergence of new media and its transformative effects on public discourse and traditional media institutions, illustrating a cultural and political landscape in flux.
New media platforms like podcasts and YouTube have empowered independent voices and disrupted the legacy media landscape.
Peterson and Rubin were early adopters of new media who leveraged these platforms to reach large audiences and discuss important issues.
Rubin and Peterson discuss how they, along with others like Joe Rogan and Cenk Uygur, harnessed technology to make an impact on public discourse. They reflect on the decline of legacy media, emphasizing that it failed to adapt to the new media sphere and, consequently, lost much of its influence. Rubin, influenced by Larry King, strives for meaningful dialogues like those he observed in King's style, countering the bite-sized content delivered by platforms like Snapchat or Vine with long-form interviews.
The new media ecosystem has allowed for more open and honest discourse, as independent voices are not beholden to corporate interests that often constrain legacy media.
Peterson and Rubin highlight the candid discussions that take place on independent platforms such as their podcasts, offering a contrast to the misinformation and limited perspectives often promulgated by mainstream media. Rubin addresses being branded a "gateway drug" to the right, emphasizing his willingness to engage with varied viewpoints on new media channels. He contemplates the large viewership new media figures receive, positing they often outperform legacy channels.
The new media landscape has catalyzed significant political and cultural shifts, as alternative perspectives gain traction and challenge the dominant narratives.
The willingness of new media figures to engage with a diverse range of guests and views has eroded the ideological silos that previously defined much of the public discourse.
Rubin discusses hosting a range of guests, from Ben Shapiro to Glenn Beck, demonstrating new media's receptivity to diverse perspectives. He also speaks to interviewing contentious figures and the backlash faced by Joe Rogan, which underscores the broader conversations allowed by new media apart from corporate censorship.
This shift has threatened the power and credibility of legacy media institutions, leading to desperate attempts to censor and marginalize new media voices.
New media challenges, such as Rogan's attemp ...
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The rise of new media and its impact on discourse and politics
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Counterarguments
- New media platforms also face challenges with misinformation and echo chambers, as their algorithms can create filter bubbles that reinforce users' existing beliefs.
- The claim that new media is completely free from corporate interests may be oversimplified, as many new media platforms are also businesses with their own economic interests and may be subject to similar pressures as legacy media.
- The idea that legacy media has completely failed to adapt is not entirely accurate, as many traditional media institutions have established significant online presences and adapted their content for digital consumption.
- The assertion that new media allows for more open and honest discourse does not account for the fact that some independent creators may also have biases or agendas that influence their content.
- The impact of new media on political and cultural shifts is complex and multifaceted, and it may not be solely due to the rise of independent voices but also to broader societal changes.
- The notion that new media figures are not beholden to any constraints might overlook the influence of audience expectations, platform policies, and market forces on the content they produce.
- The idea that new media is inherently more receptive to diverse perspectives can be contested, as some new media channels are criticized for amplifying extreme or divisive viewpoints.
- The success of figures like Peterson and Rubin in new media does not necessarily indicate a broad cultural shift, as it could also be attrib ...
Actionables
- You can start a blog to share your unique perspectives on current events, using a simple platform like WordPress or Medium to express your thoughts and engage with a community of readers. By writing regularly, you can contribute to the diversity of voices online and provide an alternative to mainstream narratives. For example, if you're passionate about environmental issues, you could write posts that explore angles not typically covered by major news outlets.
- Create a curated email newsletter to share articles, videos, and podcasts that offer varied viewpoints on a single topic, using services like Substack or Mailchimp. This helps to break down information silos and introduce your network to a broader range of ideas. For instance, if there's a hot-button issue, you could compile content from both independent and legacy media sources to present a more rounded perspective.
- Engage in constructive conversations on social media by commenting on posts w ...
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Contrasting liberal and conservative worldviews and their consequences
Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin discuss the limitations and consequences of liberal and conservative worldviews in the context of today’s societal and cultural challenges.
Peterson and Rubin observe that traditional liberal values and individualism only function effectively when the broader social and cultural fabric is strong and stable.
Peterson discusses his observation that liberal individualism is viable only when the collective social order is stable enough to be taken for granted. He notes that this system works as long as "self-evident truths remain self-evident." However, he states that as the foundations of Western civilization are increasingly eroded by radical progressive ideologies, the flaws and limitations of a pure liberal worldview become more evident.
The failure of many self-identified liberals to defend the core tenets of liberal democracy has allowed authoritarian and destructive ideologies to gain influence.
Rubin comments on the current political landscape by referring to Barack Obama, suggesting that some political leaders may have manipulated truths to achieve their goals, which he sees as a failure of liberals to uphold democratic principles. Rubin raises the concern that the "good liberal" is allowing radical ideologies to infiltrate mainstream politics. Peterson expands on this, hinting at the inability of such liberals to preserve the foundations of liberal democracy as radical ideologies gain influence.
The divide between liberal and conservative ...
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Clarifications
- Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin discuss the limitations of liberal individualism in the context of societal stability. They highlight how the erosion of traditional values can expose the weaknesses of a purely liberal worldview. Peterson and Rubin express concerns about the failure of some liberals to defend core democratic principles, allowing radical ideologies to gain influence in mainstream politics. They emphasize the need for open dialogue and a return to foundational principles to bridge the growing divide between liberal and conservative worldviews.
- The erosion of Western civilization's foundations is linked to radical progressive ideologies as they challenge traditional values and societal structures, leading to a perceived destabilization of the established order. This erosion can create a conflict between the principles of liberal individualism and the demands of radical ideologies, exposing the limitations of a purely liberal worldview in the face of such challenges. Radical progressive ideologies may advocate for significant societal changes that can be seen as undermining the stability and coherence of the existing social fabric.
- A failure to defend core tenets of liberal democracy can lead to the erosion of democratic principles and the rise of authoritarian and destructive ideologies. When individuals who identify as liberals do not uphold these fundamental values, it can create a vacuum that allows extremist ideologies to gain influence and threaten the democratic system. This failure can weaken the societal fabric that upholds individual rights, freedoms, and the rule of law, ultimately jeopardizing the stability and functioning of a liberal democratic society. It highlights the importance of actively safeguarding and promoting the principles that underpin liberal democracy to prevent its erosion and the encroachment of illiberal forces.
- Extreme polarization between liberal and conservative worldviews has intensified in recent years, leading to heightened animosity and division. This polarization is characterized by a deep distrust and demonization of the opposing side's beliefs and values. It often results in a lack of constructive dialogue, with each side viewing the other as a fundamental threat to the societal order they envision. This divide has contributed to political gridlock, social unrest, and challenges in finding common ground for progress.
- Polarization in society can lead to the erosion of shared truths because when groups become more divided, they are less willing to acknowledge or accept facts or perspectives that contradict their own beliefs. This can create echo chambers where individuals only hear information that aligns with their existing views, further deepening the divide and making it harder to establish common ground based on objective truths. As pola ...
Counterarguments
- Liberal individualism may not solely depend on social order stability; it can also be a force for change and adaptation in times of instability.
- The erosion of Western civilization's foundations can be viewed as a transformation rather than a decline, with new ideas contributing to societal evolution.
- Some argue that self-identified liberals are actively defending the core tenets of liberal democracy and that the perceived failure is a matter of perspective and political disagreement.
- It's possible to argue that political leaders from various ideologies manipulate truths, and this is not a failure exclusive to liberals.
- The threat to society is not necessarily the polarization itself but the inability to manage and integrate diverse viewpoints constructively.
- Misinformation and censorship are complex issues that can arise from multiple sources, not just ...
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Peterson's exploration of biblical themes and their application to modern life
Peterson's writings and discussions delve into the rich symbolism and timeless wisdom of biblical narratives, such as the stories of Abraham, Cain and Abel, and the Tower of Babel.
Jordan Peterson speaks on the enduring wisdom found within biblical stories, illustrating their significance to modern life. He unpacks the narratives of Cain and Abel, Abraham, and the Tower of Babel, which offer insights into human nature and the consequences of certain actions and attitudes.
These biblical stories offer insights into the human condition, the importance of sacrifice and truth-seeking, and the consequences of pride, bitterness, and the rejection of transcendent values.
Discussing Cain and Abel, Peterson touches on the concept of sacrifice and its role in life. He criticizes Cain for not offering worthy sacrifices, harboring bitterness towards God, and arrogantly blaming reality for his failures. Peterson asserts that God signals success as attainable through one's best efforts and questions skeptics on whether they've indeed given their best, intertwining effort with faith.
Peterson argues that the biblical worldview, with its emphasis on the contractual relationship between the divine and the human, provides a powerful framework for understanding and navigating the challenges of modern existence.
Peterson outlines the moral lessons and consequences shown in the sequences of biblical narratives. He discusses the moral decay illustrated through these stories, as well as the perils of excess chaos and order, like the chaos represented in Cain's failure and the misguided aspirations seen in the Tower of Babel narrative.
By reinterpreting these ancient stories, Peterson aims to help individuals and society rediscover the self-evident truths that once undergirded Western civilization, but are now in danger of being forgotten or actively undermined.
Jordan Peterson delves into Abraham's journey as the embodiment of adventure and argues that this patriarch sets a precedent for a fatherly being with a long ...
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Peterson's exploration of biblical themes and their application to modern life
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Counterarguments
- The interpretation of biblical narratives is subjective, and different scholars or theologians might disagree with Peterson's analysis or find alternative meanings in these stories.
- Some critics argue that Peterson's interpretations may be overly influenced by his own cultural and personal biases, which could limit the universality of his conclusions.
- The application of ancient biblical wisdom to modern life can be seen as anachronistic, as the societal context has changed dramatically since the times these stories were written.
- The emphasis on a contractual relationship between the divine and the human might not resonate with non-theistic or non-Abrahamic perspectives.
- The idea that Western civilization is founded on self-evident biblical truths is contested by those who point to the diverse philosophical and moral foundations that have shaped the West, including Greco-Roman thought, the Enlightenment, and secular humanism.
- Peterson's focus on individual responsibility and truth-seeking may overlook systemic issues and the role of social structures in shaping individual lives.
- Some may argue that Peterson's interpretati ...
Actionables
- You can reflect on your personal journey by journaling about times when you've had to make sacrifices and how those decisions impacted your life. Write down instances where you chose a difficult path for a greater good, and consider how these moments relate to the broader themes of sacrifice and truth-seeking. This exercise can help you understand your values and how they align with the idea of a contractual relationship with the divine or society.
- Create a "modern morals" discussion group with friends or family to explore moral foundations in the context of today's world. Use stories from your own life or current events as starting points to discuss themes like pride, bitterness, and the rejection of transcendent values. This can foster a deeper understanding of how ancient wisdom applies to contemporary issues and personal experiences.
- Develop a personal "code of ethics" inspired by the virtues and ...
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Reflections on the past 8 years of involvement in the "intellectual dark web"
Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin share insights on their journey over the past 8 years as figures in the "intellectual dark web," reflecting on its impact on society and the challenges faced along the way.
Peterson and Rubin reflect on their early interactions and the formation of their friendship, which coincided with the rise of the "intellectual dark web" and the new media revolution.
Their collaboration, which began when Rubin brought Peterson's Canadian controversies to an international audience via his podcast, evolved into a friendship and a series of joint endeavors. This partnership was marked by a groundbreaking live show tour in 2018. Peterson's involvement as Rubin's guest on podcasts and their eventual tour signaled their shared commitment to constructing a narrative that deviated from mainstream discussions, with their dialogues reaching hundreds of thousands of people and defying traditional formats of discourse.
Their collaborative efforts, including a joint tour in 2018, exemplified the power of this new media landscape to facilitate open and honest discourse on a wide range of important topics.
Peterson and Rubin reminisce about their 2018 joint tour, discussing its casual nature without security or entourage, which resonated with their independent approach. Rubin recollects performing a stand-up comedy set to warm up the crowd before Peterson's lectures, highlighting their efforts to blend humor and seriousness to ensure audiences left both entertained and enlightened.
The success of their partnership and the broader "intellectual dark web" movement highlighted the public's hunger for mature, nuanced conversations that challenged the dominant narratives of the time.
Peterson and Rubin note the new media landscape's transformation in amplifying voices like Joe Rogan, criticizing political correctness, and questioning the status quo. They identify with a cohort of iconoclastic individuals who started their independent ventures, signifying a public demand for more sophisticated, challenging conversations beyond the mainstream.
However, the backlash and attempts to censor these alternative voices have underscored the fragility of free speech and the willingness of legacy institutions to maintain their grip on power.
Peterson and Rubin comment on the pushback they’ve faced, including the "inevitable demise of the legacy media" and their concerns about free speech. They discuss censorship challenges from tech platforms, to Peterson's disbelief at Trump's Twitter ban, to Rubin's experience with shadow banning, reflecting the broader struggles related to maintaining an open dialogue.
Peterson and Rubin's exp ...
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Reflections on the past 8 years of involvement in the "intellectual dark web"
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Clarifications
- The "intellectual dark web" is a term referring to a group of academics and commentators critical of left-wing identity politics and political correctness. They advocate for open dialogue and oppose what they see as authoritarianism in mainstream progressive movements. The term was coined humorously by Eric Weinstein and popularized by Bari Weiss to describe this loose network of individuals. Members include both liberals and conservatives who challenge prevailing narratives in academia and media.
- Joe Rogan is a prominent podcaster known for hosting "The Joe Rogan Experience," one of the most popular podcasts globally. His show features long-form discussions with a wide range of guests, including intellectuals, comedians, politicians, and experts, contributing to the diversification of media content and the rise of alternative voices in the public sphere. Rogan's platform has been influential in providing a space for in-depth conversations that often challenge mainstream narratives and offer a platform for diverse perspectives to be heard. His podcast's format allows for candid and unfiltered dialogues, attracting a massive audience and shaping the landscape of modern media consumption.
- Alex Jones, a controversial far-right conspiracy theorist and media personality, was banned from several major social media platforms in 2018. Platforms like Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter removed his accounts due to violations of their policies on hate speech and harassment. This move sparked debates on free speech, platform moderation, and the responsibilities of tech companies in regulating content on their platforms. Jones' removal was seen as a significant moment in the ongoing discussions about the limits of free expression in the digital age.
- Shadow banning is a practice where a user's content is blocked or hidden from others in an online community without the user realizing it. This can be done to discourage unwanted behavior like spamming or trolling by making the user think their content is still visible. It aims to reduce disruptions caused by problematic users without alerting them to the ban. The term originated in online forums and has evolved to include various methods of limiting a user's visibility without their knowledge.
- The phrase "legacy media's 'inevitable demise'" suggests a belief that traditional media outlets, such as newspapers, television networks, and radio stations, are facing a decline in influence and relevance due to the rise of digital media platforms and changing audience preferences. This viewpoint reflects a perception that the dominance of legacy media institutions is gradually eroding as newer forms of media consumption gain traction, impacting how information is disseminated and consumed in society. The term "inevitable demise" implies a sense of inevitability or certainty in the decline of traditional media structures, signaling a shift in the media landscape towards newer, more dynamic forms of communication.
- The joint tour in 2018 featuring Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin was a series of live events where they engaged with audiences in person, discussing a variety of topics in a casual and interactive manner. The tour was characterized by a blend of humor and serious discussions, with Rubin even performing stand-up comedy to warm up the crowd before Peterson's lectures. This tour exemplified their commitment to fostering open and honest discourse outside traditional media formats, resonating with audiences seeking nuanced conversations beyond mainstream narratives. The success of the tour highlighted the public's interest in engaging with challenging ideas and alternative viewpoints in a live setting.
- "Iconoclastic individuals" are people who challenge or overturn established beliefs, customs, and traditions. They are often seen as rebels or nonconformists who ...
Counterarguments
- The "intellectual dark web" may not be as marginalized as suggested, considering the significant platforms and audiences figures like Peterson and Rubin have.
- The notion of "new media" being inherently more open to discourse is debatable, as these platforms can also have their own biases and limitations.
- The public's demand for nuanced conversations is not exclusively met by the "intellectual dark web"; there are many other forums and individuals contributing to complex discourse outside of this group.
- The success of their partnership may reflect a specific audience's preferences rather than a universal hunger for the type of conversations they offer.
- The claim of censorship and attacks on free speech could be seen as an oversimplification of the complex issues surrounding content moderation on private platforms.
- The framing of legacy institutions as monolithic entities with a singular agenda to maintain power could be an oversimplification that doesn't account for the diversity within these institutions.
- The emphasis on free speech and open inquiry, while important, does not address the responsibility that come ...
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1-Page Summary- The rise of new media and its impact on discourse and politics
- Contrasting liberal and conservative worldviews and their consequences
- Peterson's exploration of biblical themes and their application to modern life
- Reflections on the past 8 years of involvement in the "intellectual dark web"
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