Podcasts > The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast > 427. Bad Therapy, Weak Parenting, Broken Children | Abigail Shrier

427. Bad Therapy, Weak Parenting, Broken Children | Abigail Shrier

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In this installment of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, host Jordan Peterson and guest Abigail Shrier engage in a deep dive into the challenges faced by modern parenting and the transition of adolescents into adulthood. Their detailed exploration touches on gender dysphoria, the questionable impact of therapy, and the concerning trend of diminished resilience in young adults. The episode navigates the delicate terrain of teenage identity and the societal influences that may sway youths towards premature decisions about gender transitioning, as highlighted by the personal experience of detransition shared by Chloe Cole.

Diving further into the conversation, Peterson and Shrier discuss the vital role of parents and community in guiding children toward mature independence. They challenge the current cultural practices that diminish parental authority and advocate for a stronger familial input in value development. Throughout the episode, they provide suggestions on how to strike a balance between therapy and self-reliance, all while considering how technology's omnipresence should be managed. Their dialogue extends to the broader societal context, considering how educational and community support systems can be reformed to better foster resilience and autonomy among the youth.

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427. Bad Therapy, Weak Parenting, Broken Children | Abigail Shrier

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427. Bad Therapy, Weak Parenting, Broken Children | Abigail Shrier

1-Page Summary

Transitioning to Adulthood

Jordan Peterson and Abigail Shrier deliberate on contemporary parenting's pitfalls, especially in managing adolescents' transition to adulthood. They explore the complexities surrounding gender dysphoria, the over-involvement of therapeutic practices, and the resultant dearth of resilience in young adults.

Shrier postulates that a rise in adolescents identifying as transgender, especially among teenage girls, may be attributed to social influence from peers, social media, and some therapeutic interventions. They express concerns over the hasty administration of hormones and surgeries for children declaring a transgender identity, citing Chloe Cole's detransition experience as an example of the potential permanent negative effects.

Peterson critiques therapists for quickly recommending hormonal treatments without equipping youths with thorough information, potentially leading to irreversible decisions. Shrier underscores that an over-diagnosis and administering psychotropic drugs can stifle full life experience and hinder the development of personal autonomy.

The Path Forward

Peterson and Shrier propose actionable measures for renewing parental roles and enhancing community involvement to better foster children's evolution towards maturity.

Parental Responsibility

Peterson and Shrier underscore the decline of in-home parental authority, urging parents to reassert their role as the primary decision-makers and rule-setters. They share their personal experiences, indicating that therapists should not override parental influence, and highlighting the need for parents to instill their values directly into their children's upbringing.

There is a consensus on the necessity for parents to guide their children towards independence. Suggestions involve critiquing the heavy reliance on therapy, which might undermine self-reliance, and the imperative for an educational and social blueprint that encourages adolescents to be self-supportive. Furthermore, they hint at the necessity for parents to responsibly regulate their children's interaction with technology.

Community Support

When discussing community involvement, Shrier suggests consulting relatives with child-rearing experience, highlighting the extended family's potential supportive role. Peterson touches upon the need for educational systems that promote independence and resilience, signaling potential institutional reforms. Public conversations, such as the one undertaken by Shrier and Peterson, are instrumental for addressing the prevalent mental health issues among youths and underscoring the significant roles that parenting and communal support play in this domain.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there is a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. This can lead individuals to seek gender-affirming treatments like hormone therapy or surgery to align their physical characteristics with their gender identity. The causes of gender dysphoria are complex and can involve a combination of biological, psychological, and social factors. It is essential to approach individuals with gender dysphoria with empathy, understanding, and access to appropriate medical and mental health support.
  • Therapeutic interventions in managing adolescents typically involve counseling, psychotherapy, and other mental health treatments aimed at addressing emotional, behavioral, or psychological issues in young individuals. These interventions can vary in approach and may include techniques to help adolescents cope with challenges, develop coping skills, improve communication, and enhance overall well-being. Therapists work closely with adolescents to understand their concerns, provide support, and facilitate personal growth and resilience. The goal is to empower adolescents to navigate their emotions, relationships, and life transitions effectively.
  • Chloe Cole's detransition experience refers to her decision to transition back to her assigned gender after previously identifying as transgender. This experience highlights the complexities and challenges individuals may face during their gender identity journey. Chloe's story underscores the importance of thorough exploration and support in gender transition processes.
  • Psychotropic drugs are medications that affect a person's mental state. They are commonly used to treat mental health conditions like depression, anxiety, and schizophrenia. These drugs work by altering brain chemistry to help regulate emotions, thoughts, and behaviors. However, they can have side effects and must be carefully prescribed and monitored by healthcare professionals.
  • Over-diagnosis in mental health occurs when individuals are incorrectly labeled as having a mental health disorder when they do not meet the criteria for diagnosis. This can lead to unnecessary treatments, such as medication or therapy, which may not be beneficial and could potentially harm the individual. Over-diagnosis can stem from various factors, including societal trends, misinterpretation of symptoms, and pressure to conform to diagnostic criteria. It is a significant concern in the field of mental health as it can impact individuals' well-being and lead to inappropriate interventions.
  • Parental authority encompasses the power and influence parents traditionally hold over their children's upbringing and decision-making. The decline of parental authority suggests a weakening of this influence, often attributed to various factors such as societal changes, increased reliance on external sources like therapists, and shifts in parenting styles towards more permissive approaches. This decline can impact the ability of parents to guide and shape their children's behaviors, values, and overall development, potentially leading to challenges in fostering independence and resilience in adolescents. Restoring parental authority involves reasserting the role of parents as primary decision-makers and rule-setters in their children's lives, emphasizing the importance of instilling values, setting boundaries, and promoting self-reliance within the family dynamic.
  • Extended family in child-rearing typically involves grandparents, aunts, uncles, and other relatives playing a supportive role in a child's upbringing. They can provide additional care, guidance, and emotional support to children, complementing the efforts of parents. This extended support network can offer diverse perspectives, experiences, and resources that contribute to a child's holistic development. In many cultures, the extended family is seen as an essential part of a child's upbringing, providing a sense of belonging and stability beyond the immediate family unit.
  • Institutional reforms in educational systems typically involve changes to policies, practices, and structures within schools and educational organizations. These reforms aim to improve the quality of education, address emerging challenges, and better prepare students for the future. Examples of institutional reforms may include updates to curriculum standards, modifications to assessment methods, enhancements in teacher training programs, and adjustments to school governance models. Such reforms are often driven by research, societal needs, technological advancements, and evolving educational philosophies.

Counterarguments

  • Concerns about the influence of social media and peer pressure on gender identity may overlook the genuine experiences of transgender individuals and the importance of affirming their identity.
  • The focus on the potential negative outcomes of transitioning may ignore the positive effects and improved mental health that can result from gender-affirming treatments for those who are transgender.
  • Criticizing therapists for quickly recommending hormonal treatments may not accurately represent the careful and considered approach that many healthcare professionals take in assessing and treating gender dysphoria.
  • The emphasis on parental authority could potentially dismiss the importance of adolescents developing their own sense of identity and autonomy, which can be crucial for their transition to adulthood.
  • The suggestion that over-diagnosis and the use of psychotropic drugs are widespread may not take into account the individuals for whom these interventions are necessary and beneficial.
  • The call for parents to regulate their children's interaction with technology might not fully consider the positive aspects of technology in education, socialization, and access to supportive communities, especially for marginalized youth.
  • The idea of community support through relatives and educational reforms may not address the need for professional mental health support for young people facing complex issues.
  • Public conversations led by figures like Peterson and Shrier may not represent the full spectrum of expert opinions on the topics of gender dysphoria and adolescent mental health, and could benefit from including a more diverse range of perspectives.

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427. Bad Therapy, Weak Parenting, Broken Children | Abigail Shrier

Transitioning to Adulthood

Jordan Peterson and Abigail Shrier discuss the challenges and missteps in current approaches to parenting adolescents, particularly focusing on gender dysphoria, the overreach of therapeutic care, and the resulting lack of resilience in young adults.

Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria

Social contagion and peer influence

Abigail Shrier hypothesizes that the sudden rise in transgender identification among teen girls is part of a social contagion, greatly influenced by social media, peers, and therapists.

Over-treatment of children

Both Peterson and Shrier express concern about over-treatment of children, noting that some quickly start hormones and surgeries after identifying as transgender, which can lead to drastic and lasting negative consequences, as evidenced by detransitioners like Chloe Cole.

Lack of resilience and independence

Peterson criticizes therapists for hastily leading young people down a path of hormonal treatment without providing basic information, which could lead to irreversible decisions. Shrier adds that some children are over-diagnosed and placed on psychotropic drugs, which can prevent them from experiencing life fully and developing autonomy.

Therapeutic Industry Critique

Trauma-informed care overreach

Shrier suggests that an excessive fear of trauma has altered parenting and treatment practices, resulting in children being treated as fragile and constantly haunted by potential trauma.

Focus on feelings over skills and resilience

The therapeutic industry's focus on affirming and reinforcing a patient's self-diagnosis rather than developing skills and resilience is critiqued. Peterson associates this with neuroticism, depression, and anxiety, while Shrier suggests therapy can sometimes worsen mental health issues.

Parental authority declining

Shrier and Peterson argue that the increasing influence of therapists and the therapy industry is undermining parental authority, with parents too often relying on therapists for guidance and decisions that should come from within the family.

Problems with Current Parenting Approaches

Overprotection and lack of responsibilities

Peterson and Shrier ...

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Transitioning to Adulthood

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD) is a term used to describe a phenomenon where individuals, often adolescents, quickly develop gender dysphoria without a history of childhood gender confusion. It suggests a sudden onset of gender dysphoria during adolescence, sometimes influenced by social factors like peers and social media. Critics argue that ROGD may be overdiagnosed and lead to hasty medical interventions without thorough evaluation.
  • Detransitioners like Chloe Cole are individuals who have transitioned from one gender to another but later decide to detransition, reverting back to their original gender identity. This process can involve stopping hormone therapy or undergoing surgeries to reverse the physical changes of their transition. Detransitioners often share their experiences to raise awareness about the complexities and challenges of gender transition and detransition journeys.
  • Trauma-informed care overreach involves an excessive focus on past traumas in treatment, potentially overshadowing other aspects of a person's well-being. This approach may lead to individuals being viewed primarily through the lens of trauma, impacting how they are understood and supported. It can sometimes result in an overemphasis on past experiences at ...

Counterarguments

  • The concept of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD) is not widely recognized in the medical community, and there is debate about its validity. Some argue that increased visibility and social acceptance have allowed more transgender individuals to come out, rather than it being a social contagion.
  • The process of transitioning, including hormone therapy and surgeries, is typically governed by established medical guidelines and involves a thorough assessment process, which aims to ensure that individuals are making informed decisions.
  • Detransitioning is relatively rare, and the reasons behind it can be complex, including external pressures and lack of support, rather than solely regret over medical transition.
  • Psychotropic medication, when prescribed and monitored correctly, can be an essential part of treatment for various mental health conditions and can improve the quality of life for those who need them.
  • Trauma-informed care is a response to the recognition that trauma can have long-lasting effects on individuals, and it aims to create a supportive environment that acknowledges and addresses these impacts.
  • Therapists often work to balance validating feelings with building resilience and coping skills, and therapy can be a space where individuals learn to navigate their emotions and challenges effectively.
  • Parental authority is important, but so is the expertise of mental health professional ...

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427. Bad Therapy, Weak Parenting, Broken Children | Abigail Shrier

The Path Forward

Abigail Shrier and Jordan Peterson discuss the necessary strides toward reclaiming parental authority and the role of community in guiding children’s development.

Parental Responsibility

Authority in the home

Shrier and Peterson highlight the growing disempowerment of parental authority in modern households. Shrier argues that therapists are increasingly replacing parents as authority figures, which is troubling. She insists that parents should establish the rules, not therapists. Shrier shares an anecdote illustrating a lack of authority, where a child psychologist, despite not supporting Shrier’s views, remains quiet for fear of alienating her adult daughter. Peterson supports the importance of parental authority through an anecdote about advising his son on disciplinary matters, showing parents should not be submissive to their children’s demands. Peterson and Shrier agree that reclaiming parental authority is essential for successful child-rearing.

Values transmission

Though not explicitly mentioned, both Shrier and Peterson allude to the importance of parents transmitting their own values. Shrier is adamant that parents embed their values in their children, without letting intermediaries dictate them. Peterson speaks about modeling behaviors to children that instill values, advocating for direct communication of the virtues of adulthood, including the importance of being useful and adventurous. Implicit in their discussion is the idea that the relinquishing of parental authority has diminished the transmission of said values.

Fostering independence

The transcript chunk does not discuss the fostering of independence directly. However, both speakers imply its importance. Shrier criticizes the overuse of therapy, hinting that it undermines young adults’ sense of agency. Peterson mentions the importance of young people having an educational plan, social relationships, and the ability to stand on their own feet, which links to fostering independence. Shrier commends actions like letting her son manage his anxiety, thus promoting his independence.

Managing technology

Shrier touches on technology management by parents, suggesting that while social media need not be feared, it requires responsible parenting to prepare childr ...

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The Path Forward

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Abigail Shrier is known for her views on gender identity and the impact of transgender policies on society. Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist and professor known for his conservative views on cultural and political issues, emphasizing personal responsibility and free speech. Both Shrier and Peterson advocate for traditional values and parental authority in child-rearing.
  • Diminishing parental authority can hinder the effective transmission of values from parents to children. When parents' authority is undermined, children may not receive consistent guidance on important values and principles. This lack of clear direction can lead to confusion and a weakened understanding of the family's core beliefs. Ultimately, the erosion of parental authority can impact the development of a child's moral compass and sense of identity.
  • The connection between therapy overuse and young adults' sense of agency can be understood as excessive reliance on therapy potentially undermining individuals' ability to make decisions and take control of their lives. When young adults are constantly encouraged to seek external help for every challenge they face, it may hinder their development of self-reliance and problem-solving skills. This overreliance on therapy could lead to a diminished sense of personal agency, as individuals may struggle to navigate life's difficulties independently. Encouraging young adults to develop their coping mechanisms and resilience without solely depending on therapy can help foster a stronger ...

Counterarguments

  • The role of therapists is to support and guide, not to undermine parental authority; they can provide specialized help that parents may not be equipped to offer.
  • Some parents may lack the necessary skills or knowledge to address complex psychological issues, and therapists can be crucial in such cases.
  • The transmission of values from parents to children should be balanced with encouraging critical thinking and allowing children to form their own values.
  • Children's demands can sometimes reflect legitimate needs or perspectives that parents should consider rather than dismiss in the name of authority.
  • Independence can also be fostered through supportive structures outside the family, such as mentorship programs or community groups.
  • Technology management by parents should also involve educating children about digital literacy and critical thinking online, not just setting rules.
  • Extended family advice should be considered but not followed blindly, as what works for one family may not work for anothe ...

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