In this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, paleogenomics expert Beth Shapiro discusses her work with ancient DNA and the science of de-extinction. She explains her journey from broadcast journalism to studying ancient specimens, including her field expeditions to Siberia in search of mammoth remains. The conversation covers the technical aspects of working with ancient DNA, including laboratory procedures, PCR amplification, and the use of CRISPR technology.
Shapiro details Colossal's current projects, including their work with dire wolves and plans for woolly mammoth reintroduction. She addresses academic resistance to new genetic evidence and responds to ethical concerns about gene editing. The discussion explores how de-extinction technology could benefit conservation efforts, while acknowledging the need for responsible implementation within existing regulatory frameworks.
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Beth Shapiro, an expert in paleogenomics, discovered her passion for science unexpectedly while studying broadcast journalism at the University of Georgia. After a transformative experience in field geology and archaeology, she joined Professor Alan Cooper's lab, where she began working with ancient DNA. Her scientific journey took her on remarkable expeditions, including a memorable trip to Siberia in search of mammoth and woolly rhino bones.
Shapiro explains that working with ancient DNA requires extremely careful laboratory procedures due to its fragmented nature and susceptibility to contamination. Her lab uses PCR amplification, which acts like a photocopying process for DNA, enabling the sequencing of ancient specimens. At Colossal, they employ cutting-edge genome-editing technology like CRISPR and use organoids—lab-grown approximations of organs—to test genetic modifications without creating full organisms.
Colossal's team is working on several de-extinction projects, including the dire wolf project, which has successfully produced specimens like Romulus, Remus, and Khaleesi. Joe Rogan, who encountered these wolves in person, noted their impressive size and musculature. The team is also exploring the potential reintroduction of woolly mammoths to North America, though Shapiro emphasizes that any reintroduction would be carefully planned and executed, with extensive consultation with wildlife biologists and ecologists.
Shapiro describes facing resistance from the academic community, particularly regarding new genetic evidence that challenges established beliefs. She notes a "scarcity mindset" in academia that can stifle innovation. Joe Rogan adds that this resistance often stems from ego-related issues and academia's competitive nature. Shapiro also addresses ethical concerns about gene editing, explaining the distinction between somatic cell editing and more controversial germ-line editing.
Shapiro argues that the same technology used for de-extinction can benefit conservation efforts through genetic rescue of endangered species. While some worry about "playing God," Shapiro points out that humans have always altered nature through domestication and causing extinctions. She emphasizes the importance of operating within regulatory frameworks and biological realities, suggesting that responsible use of these technologies requires both public trust and interdisciplinary collaboration.
1-Page Summary
Beth Shapiro is an expert in ancient DNA, also known as paleogenomics, where DNA is extracted from historical artifacts, offering the potential to rewrite history with new discoveries.
Initially set on a career in broadcast journalism, Beth Shapiro took an interest in science during her time at the University of Georgia. Her introduction to science came unexpectedly. While enrolled in the university's broadcast journalism school, a class in field geology and archaeology that took her across the United States sparked a new passion. Shapiro found herself intrigued by the geological and human history, which inspired her to tell those stories through a new medium—science.
This epiphany led Shapiro to pursue a science degree. Although she entered the field wanting to be a communicator, she discovered that being a scientist was "so much fun."
Wandering into the university halls, Shapiro met Professor Alan Cooper, through whom she learned about the meticulous process of extracting DNA from bones in a clean room setting. Cooper's lab featured the specialized setup necessary for this kind of work, and it was here that Shapiro found her calling. She joined Cooper's lab, though not specifically for ancient DNA extraction, but with the added excitement that her work there would take her to new and exciting places, such as Siberia.
Shapiro recounts an extraordinary expedition to Siberia, which stood out as both hazardous and surreal. The mission was to seek out mammoth and woolly rhino bones, but it began w ...
Beth Shapiro: Studying Ancient DNA and De-extinction
De-extinction science merges the investigation of ancient DNA with cutting-edge genome editing. Beth Shapiro describes the unique challenges and developments in this field, which involves precise laboratory conditions and innovative genetic tools.
Shapiro details the delicate state of ancient DNA, heavily fragmented and susceptible to contamination, requiring meticulous laboratory procedures. She outlines the decay process, where DNA deteriorates post-mortem without the repair mechanisms available to living organisms. Environmental factors such as UV light expedite the fragmentation of the genetic material.
To work with ancient DNA, which may be infested with foreign DNA from various sources, including our own, Shapiro’s lab practices extreme caution. The lab operates under conditions akin to those found in a virology lab—stringent and sterile—to exclude any external DNA. Researchers don fully protective gear and bleach everything to safeguard against self-contamination of the ancient specimens.
The method of PCR amplification, explained by Shapiro, acts as a sort of "photocopying" process for DNA, multiplying fragments to sufficient levels for sequencing. This advancement has propelled the possibility of extracting and sequencing DNA from ancient remains, leading to successes like decoding entire Neanderthal genomes.
Colossal’s utilization of genome-editing technology is a key aspect of de-extinction research. The company avails itself of CRISPR to possibly orchestrate DNA sequences and help preserve species such as red wolves. Shapiro emphasizes that the ...
De-extinction Science and Technology: Ancient DNA, Genome Engineering, and Organoids
Colossal's ambitious work on the frontline of de-extinction is geared not just towards understanding ancient DNA but also responsibly considering the ecological impacts of bringing back long-gone species like dire wolves and woolly mammoths.
Colossal's team, including Beth Shapiro, has engaged in a landmark project aiming to resurrect the traits of the ancient dire wolf. Working on specimens dating back thousands of years, they are interested in the learning potential of genetically engineered wolves.
Shapiro described how they manipulated the DNA of gray wolves using genome sequences from dire wolves, focusing on traits such as size, strength, and coat color. They discovered genetic traits that challenged previous misconceptions about the dire wolf, revealing their actual coat color was lighter than previously depicted. Shapiro also notes the project's awe-inspiring moments like the birth of Khaleesi and the missed chance to witness the birth of Romulus and Remus while she was abroad.
Joe Rogan shared the unique experience of encountering these creatures in person. He noted their distinctiveness, particularly their size and musculature. At six months old, the wolves he encountered were already close to 100 pounds, and despite their adorable appearance as exemplified by Khaleesi, Rogan acknowledged their formidable future size and wild nature.
Shapiro concurs with Rogan on the physical impressiveness of the animals, citing the "dire wolf coat" as a notable characteristic. Despite the excitement, she clarifies that Colossal has no immediate plans to release dire wolves into the wild. However, they are crafting detailed plans to evaluate any potential impacts, highlighting that research and development are designed to be measured and considerate.
The conversation extends beyond dire wolves to other captivating species like the woolly mammoth. Shapiro muses over the idea of reintroducing mammoths and other animals that once roamed the North American continent. However, before considering such an endeavor, Shapiro speaks to the importance of consulting wildlife biologists and ecologists. She uses the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone as a case study to illustrate the keystone predator’s role in ecosystems and the necessity that similar decisions be made thoughtfully.
As mammoths are cold-adapted and have historically sustained both warm and cold climates, discussions involve identifying suitable habitats for potential reintroduction. Shapiro's team considers parts of North America, like Alaska or northern Canada, while carefully weighing the long reproductive cycle of mammoths, which dictates a naturally controlled population.
Shapiro emphasizes that the reintroduction process for any species will be slow, deliberate, and carefully executed. Befor ...
Colossal's Extinct Species Resurrection: Dire Wolf, Woolly Mammoth, and More
Beth Shapiro and her team at Colossal face criticism from segments of the scientific community and navigate a complex ethical landscape surrounding de-extinction and genetic engineering technologies.
Shapiro observes that there is a scarcity mindset in academia, which can manifest as negative attitudes that stifle innovation. In some cases, academics may react negatively out of fear that acknowledging others' work may detract from their own projects. There is an element of gatekeeping in academia, where some individuals wish to maintain authority by dismissing contradicting evidence and viewpoints. Shapiro expresses confusion about how, given the rapid changes in genetics, some scientists continue to cling to established knowledge and show resistance to new ideas.
Shapiro speaks about the initial skepticism and resistance she encountered from paleoanthropologists and archaeologists when it came to the field of ancient DNA. Their research has often challenged established beliefs, such as the claim that Neanderthals and humans did not interbreed. Shapiro also highlights how new genetic evidence can overturn long-held assertions, such as the perception of beefalo as a distinct species when they are just cattle.
Joe Rogan adds that resistance is a sign of a "famine mentality" and is prevalent among people with ego-related issues. He points out that academia's competitive nature can support such behavior.
Shapiro references past controversies in academia, such as the struggle to integrate new data about the history of horses in North America, which contradicted both Native American beliefs and a lack of DNA evidence until recent findings. Furthermore, the revision of the “Clovis first” theory, which described the initial human settlement of North America, was also met with resistance. Notably, the negative reception and attacks on Jacques Cinq-Mars showcased how groundbreaking archaeological findings could be initially rejected if they contradicted the accepted narrative.
Rogan discusses the nature of academia as an exclusive community where political alignment can influence the availability of rese ...
Challenges and Criticism Faced by Colossal and Shapiro
Beth Shapiro and Joe Rogan discuss the potential and pitfalls of new technologies involved in de-extinction and genetic engineering, raising questions about both conservation opportunities and ethical dilemmas.
Beth Shapiro explains that the same technology used for de-extinction can also apply to conservation efforts. Genetic rescue, for instance, introduces new genetic diversity into inbred populations, which can help enhance the survival of endangered species, such as using what's learned from red wolf DNA in Louisiana.
Shapiro discusses how extracting DNA directly from sediments can reconstruct past ecosystems, which could play a role in understanding and restoring habitats. This suggests potential uses of ancient DNA in conservation. Shapiro states that technologies involving ancient DNA and genome engineering could prevent species from becoming extinct.
Moreover, Shapiro taught an introductory biology class which engaged in the debate on whether wolves should be reintroduced into California. This promoted critical thinking about species reintroduction and habitat restoration.
Shapiro argues that humans have always "played God," whether by causing extinctions or domesticating species. She suggests that new DNA-altering technologies are extensions of these historic human impacts on nature and could help fix ecological damage. She points out that the current extinction rate, mostly due to human activity, could be mitigated with these new tools. She emphasizes that making the fewest genetic edits necessary is a cautious approach in their de-extinction work.
Joe Rogan highlights potential comprehensive effects on ecosystems and references Florida's struggles with Burmese pythons as an example of the unforeseen consequences. Rogan and Shapiro also discuss whether reintroducing animals like elephants to regions where extinct mammoths once lived could be considered introducing invasive species. Shapiro discusses the imperative of operating within regulatory frameworks and biological realities, suggesting the need for public perception and interdisciplinary work to use these technologies responsibly.
The conversation between Rogan and Shapi ...
Debates and Implications of De-extinction and Genetic Engineering
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