Podcasts > The Joe Rogan Experience > #2338 - Beth Shapiro

#2338 - Beth Shapiro

By Joe Rogan

In this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, paleogenomics expert Beth Shapiro discusses her work with ancient DNA and the science of de-extinction. She explains her journey from broadcast journalism to studying ancient specimens, including her field expeditions to Siberia in search of mammoth remains. The conversation covers the technical aspects of working with ancient DNA, including laboratory procedures, PCR amplification, and the use of CRISPR technology.

Shapiro details Colossal's current projects, including their work with dire wolves and plans for woolly mammoth reintroduction. She addresses academic resistance to new genetic evidence and responds to ethical concerns about gene editing. The discussion explores how de-extinction technology could benefit conservation efforts, while acknowledging the need for responsible implementation within existing regulatory frameworks.

#2338 - Beth Shapiro

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#2338 - Beth Shapiro

1-Page Summary

Beth Shapiro: Studying Ancient DNA and De-extinction

Beth Shapiro, an expert in paleogenomics, discovered her passion for science unexpectedly while studying broadcast journalism at the University of Georgia. After a transformative experience in field geology and archaeology, she joined Professor Alan Cooper's lab, where she began working with ancient DNA. Her scientific journey took her on remarkable expeditions, including a memorable trip to Siberia in search of mammoth and woolly rhino bones.

De-extinction Science and Technology

Shapiro explains that working with ancient DNA requires extremely careful laboratory procedures due to its fragmented nature and susceptibility to contamination. Her lab uses PCR amplification, which acts like a photocopying process for DNA, enabling the sequencing of ancient specimens. At Colossal, they employ cutting-edge genome-editing technology like CRISPR and use organoids—lab-grown approximations of organs—to test genetic modifications without creating full organisms.

Colossal's Extinct Species Resurrection Projects

Colossal's team is working on several de-extinction projects, including the dire wolf project, which has successfully produced specimens like Romulus, Remus, and Khaleesi. Joe Rogan, who encountered these wolves in person, noted their impressive size and musculature. The team is also exploring the potential reintroduction of woolly mammoths to North America, though Shapiro emphasizes that any reintroduction would be carefully planned and executed, with extensive consultation with wildlife biologists and ecologists.

Challenges and Criticism

Shapiro describes facing resistance from the academic community, particularly regarding new genetic evidence that challenges established beliefs. She notes a "scarcity mindset" in academia that can stifle innovation. Joe Rogan adds that this resistance often stems from ego-related issues and academia's competitive nature. Shapiro also addresses ethical concerns about gene editing, explaining the distinction between somatic cell editing and more controversial germ-line editing.

Debates and Implications

Shapiro argues that the same technology used for de-extinction can benefit conservation efforts through genetic rescue of endangered species. While some worry about "playing God," Shapiro points out that humans have always altered nature through domestication and causing extinctions. She emphasizes the importance of operating within regulatory frameworks and biological realities, suggesting that responsible use of these technologies requires both public trust and interdisciplinary collaboration.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • The excitement around de-extinction may overshadow the importance of preserving existing ecosystems and preventing current species from becoming endangered or extinct.
  • The reintroduction of extinct species, like the woolly mammoth, could have unforeseen ecological impacts, as current ecosystems have evolved in their absence.
  • There are ethical concerns about the welfare of animals produced through de-extinction technologies, as they may suffer from health issues due to genetic anomalies.
  • The resources allocated to de-extinction projects could be argued to be better spent on more immediate conservation efforts with clearer benefits.
  • The notion of a "scarcity mindset" in academia could be reframed as a necessary caution in the face of novel and potentially disruptive technologies.
  • The argument that humans have always altered nature might not justify further alterations, especially when the long-term consequences are uncertain.
  • Public trust in de-extinction technology may be difficult to achieve given the complex ethical, environmental, and biological considerations involved.
  • The use of CRISPR and other gene-editing tools in conservation may lead to unintended genetic consequences that could be detrimental to the long-term viability of species.
  • The success of de-extinction projects in producing specimens like Romulus, Remus, and Khaleesi does not necessarily translate to the successful integration of these species into wild ecosystems.
  • The distinction between somatic cell editing and germ-line editing, while important, does not address all ethical concerns related to gene editing.
  • The competitive nature of academia could be viewed as a mechanism that promotes rigor and critical evaluation, which are essential for scientific progress.

Actionables

  • Explore your unexpected interests by volunteering in diverse fields. If Shapiro's shift from journalism to science intrigues you, consider volunteering in various sectors that you're curious about but haven't explored professionally. For example, if you've always been interested in marine life, look for opportunities at a local aquarium or marine conservation group. This can provide hands-on experience and potentially uncover a hidden passion.
  • Foster innovation by starting a cross-disciplinary book club. To combat the scarcity mindset and promote interdisciplinary collaboration, create a book club that focuses on reading materials from different fields. Invite friends from various professions, and each month, choose a book from a different discipline. This encourages open-mindedness and can lead to innovative ideas at the intersection of diverse fields.
  • Engage in ethical debates with friends to develop critical thinking. Considering the ethical concerns around gene editing, organize informal debate nights with friends where you discuss the ethics of emerging technologies. Use real-world scenarios, such as the implications of editing genes to cure diseases versus enhancing human abilities, to ground the discussions. This practice can help you understand and articulate your stance on complex issues.

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#2338 - Beth Shapiro

Beth Shapiro: Studying Ancient DNA and De-extinction

Beth Shapiro is an expert in ancient DNA, also known as paleogenomics, where DNA is extracted from historical artifacts, offering the potential to rewrite history with new discoveries.

Shapiro's Interest in Journalism and Transition to Science

Inspired by Field Geology and Archaeology, She Pursued Science to Use DNA For Uncovering Past Stories

Initially set on a career in broadcast journalism, Beth Shapiro took an interest in science during her time at the University of Georgia. Her introduction to science came unexpectedly. While enrolled in the university's broadcast journalism school, a class in field geology and archaeology that took her across the United States sparked a new passion. Shapiro found herself intrigued by the geological and human history, which inspired her to tell those stories through a new medium—science.

This epiphany led Shapiro to pursue a science degree. Although she entered the field wanting to be a communicator, she discovered that being a scientist was "so much fun."

Shapiro on Ancient DNA and Cooper's Research

Wandering into the university halls, Shapiro met Professor Alan Cooper, through whom she learned about the meticulous process of extracting DNA from bones in a clean room setting. Cooper's lab featured the specialized setup necessary for this kind of work, and it was here that Shapiro found her calling. She joined Cooper's lab, though not specifically for ancient DNA extraction, but with the added excitement that her work there would take her to new and exciting places, such as Siberia.

Travel to Siberia Enticed Shapiro to Pursue New Field

Shapiro recounts an extraordinary expedition to Siberia, which stood out as both hazardous and surreal. The mission was to seek out mammoth and woolly rhino bones, but it began w ...

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Beth Shapiro: Studying Ancient DNA and De-extinction

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Actionables

  • Explore your local history through DNA by collecting and analyzing pet DNA to understand breed histories and migrations. You can start by using at-home DNA kits designed for pets, comparing results with neighbors, and creating a community map of pet lineages that may reveal interesting local history or breed origins.
  • Foster scientific curiosity by starting a "DNA Book Club" where you and your friends read and discuss books on genetics, ancient DNA, and related adventures. This can be a fun way to learn more about the field and its implications for understanding history and evolution, much like Beth Shapiro did through her work.
  • Engage with the adventurous spirit of fieldwork by vol ...

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#2338 - Beth Shapiro

De-extinction Science and Technology: Ancient DNA, Genome Engineering, and Organoids

De-extinction science merges the investigation of ancient DNA with cutting-edge genome editing. Beth Shapiro describes the unique challenges and developments in this field, which involves precise laboratory conditions and innovative genetic tools.

Challenges of Ancient DNA and Need For Clean Rooms

PCR Amplification of Small DNA Fragments Revolutionizes Ancient DNA Research

Shapiro details the delicate state of ancient DNA, heavily fragmented and susceptible to contamination, requiring meticulous laboratory procedures. She outlines the decay process, where DNA deteriorates post-mortem without the repair mechanisms available to living organisms. Environmental factors such as UV light expedite the fragmentation of the genetic material.

To work with ancient DNA, which may be infested with foreign DNA from various sources, including our own, Shapiro’s lab practices extreme caution. The lab operates under conditions akin to those found in a virology lab—stringent and sterile—to exclude any external DNA. Researchers don fully protective gear and bleach everything to safeguard against self-contamination of the ancient specimens.

The method of PCR amplification, explained by Shapiro, acts as a sort of "photocopying" process for DNA, multiplying fragments to sufficient levels for sequencing. This advancement has propelled the possibility of extracting and sequencing DNA from ancient remains, leading to successes like decoding entire Neanderthal genomes.

Genome Tools Like CRISPR Let Colossal Resurrect Extinct Traits

Colossal’s utilization of genome-editing technology is a key aspect of de-extinction research. The company avails itself of CRISPR to possibly orchestrate DNA sequences and help preserve species such as red wolves. Shapiro emphasizes that the ...

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De-extinction Science and Technology: Ancient DNA, Genome Engineering, and Organoids

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Ancient DNA undergoes decay post-mortem due to various factors like environmental conditions and lack of repair mechanisms present in living organisms. The degradation process can be accelerated by factors such as UV light, leading to fragmentation of the genetic material over time. Unlike DNA in living organisms that can be repaired, ancient DNA lacks these mechanisms, making it fragile and prone to damage. This fragility necessitates meticulous laboratory procedures and sterile conditions to prevent contamination and preserve the integrity of the ancient genetic material.
  • PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) amplification is a technique used to make multiple copies of a specific segment of DNA. In ancient DNA research, PCR is crucial for amplifying small, fragmented DNA samples to levels suitable for sequencing. This process allows researchers to study and analyze ancient DNA that may be degraded or present in limited quantities. PCR acts like a molecular photocopying machine, enabling the replication of DNA segments for further analysis and understanding.
  • CRISPR technology is a powerful tool used for precise gene editing. In de-extinction research, CRISPR can potentially help reintroduce extinct traits by editing the DNA of related living species. This technology allows scientists to target specific genes and make precise changes, offering a way t ...

Counterarguments

  • Ancient DNA research is complex and may not always lead to accurate reconstructions of extinct species due to gaps and errors in the genetic material.
  • The use of PCR amplification, while revolutionary, can also introduce biases or errors in the DNA sequences that are amplified, potentially leading to incorrect conclusions.
  • The sterile conditions required for ancient DNA research are difficult to maintain and may not always prevent contamination, which can compromise results.
  • The use of CRISPR and other gene-editing tools raises ethical concerns regarding the manipulation of life and the potential consequences of reintroducing extinct traits or species.
  • The acceptance and use of technologies like ancient DNA sequencing and gene editing within the scientific community does not necessarily address the broader societal and ecological implications of de-extinction.
  • Organoids, while useful, are simplified models of organs and may not fully replicate the complexity of living organisms, which could limit the unde ...

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#2338 - Beth Shapiro

Colossal's Extinct Species Resurrection: Dire Wolf, Woolly Mammoth, and More

Colossal's ambitious work on the frontline of de-extinction is geared not just towards understanding ancient DNA but also responsibly considering the ecological impacts of bringing back long-gone species like dire wolves and woolly mammoths.

The Dire Wolf Project: Romulus, Remus, and Khaleesi

Colossal's team, including Beth Shapiro, has engaged in a landmark project aiming to resurrect the traits of the ancient dire wolf. Working on specimens dating back thousands of years, they are interested in the learning potential of genetically engineered wolves.

Colossal's Ancient Dna Analysis of Dire Wolf Traits

Shapiro described how they manipulated the DNA of gray wolves using genome sequences from dire wolves, focusing on traits such as size, strength, and coat color. They discovered genetic traits that challenged previous misconceptions about the dire wolf, revealing their actual coat color was lighter than previously depicted. Shapiro also notes the project's awe-inspiring moments like the birth of Khaleesi and the missed chance to witness the birth of Romulus and Remus while she was abroad.

Joe Rogan shared the unique experience of encountering these creatures in person. He noted their distinctiveness, particularly their size and musculature. At six months old, the wolves he encountered were already close to 100 pounds, and despite their adorable appearance as exemplified by Khaleesi, Rogan acknowledged their formidable future size and wild nature.

Shapiro concurs with Rogan on the physical impressiveness of the animals, citing the "dire wolf coat" as a notable characteristic. Despite the excitement, she clarifies that Colossal has no immediate plans to release dire wolves into the wild. However, they are crafting detailed plans to evaluate any potential impacts, highlighting that research and development are designed to be measured and considerate.

Reintroducing Woolly Mammoths and Other Species To North America

The conversation extends beyond dire wolves to other captivating species like the woolly mammoth. Shapiro muses over the idea of reintroducing mammoths and other animals that once roamed the North American continent. However, before considering such an endeavor, Shapiro speaks to the importance of consulting wildlife biologists and ecologists. She uses the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone as a case study to illustrate the keystone predator’s role in ecosystems and the necessity that similar decisions be made thoughtfully.

As mammoths are cold-adapted and have historically sustained both warm and cold climates, discussions involve identifying suitable habitats for potential reintroduction. Shapiro's team considers parts of North America, like Alaska or northern Canada, while carefully weighing the long reproductive cycle of mammoths, which dictates a naturally controlled population.

Shapiro emphasizes that the reintroduction process for any species will be slow, deliberate, and carefully executed. Befor ...

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Colossal's Extinct Species Resurrection: Dire Wolf, Woolly Mammoth, and More

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Ethical concerns about the welfare of resurrected species, as they may not be well-adapted to modern ecosystems.
  • The potential ecological risks of introducing species that have been extinct for thousands of years, including unpredictable interactions with current species.
  • The possibility that resources invested in de-extinction could be better spent on conserving endangered species and habitats currently under threat.
  • The argument that de-extinction may distract from the root causes of biodiversity loss, such as habitat destruction and climate change.
  • Concerns about the genetic purity of resurrected species, as they would be hybrids of ancient DNA and modern relatives, potentially leading to unforeseen genetic issues.
  • The risk of unforeseen consequences, such as the spread of diseases to which current ecosystems have no resistance.
  • The challenge of ensuring that reintroduced species have a positive impact on current ecosystems, as opposed to disrupting them.
  • The potentia ...

Actionables

  • You can foster a deeper understanding of ancient species by creating a themed garden with plants from the eras of these animals. Research plants that existed during the time of dire wolves and woolly mammoths, and cultivate a garden that reflects the ancient ecosystems. This hands-on approach will give you a tangible connection to the environments these animals would have inhabited.
  • Enhance local biodiversity by volunteering for habitat restoration projects in your area. Look for local conservation groups that work on restoring native plant species and support wildlife. By participating, you contribute to creating suitable habitats that could potentially support reintroduced species in the future.
  • Educate your community about the importance of ecological ...

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#2338 - Beth Shapiro

Challenges and Criticism Faced by Colossal and Shapiro

Beth Shapiro and her team at Colossal face criticism from segments of the scientific community and navigate a complex ethical landscape surrounding de-extinction and genetic engineering technologies.

Pushback From Scientists Due to "Scarcity" and Resistance to Technology

Shapiro observes that there is a scarcity mindset in academia, which can manifest as negative attitudes that stifle innovation. In some cases, academics may react negatively out of fear that acknowledging others' work may detract from their own projects. There is an element of gatekeeping in academia, where some individuals wish to maintain authority by dismissing contradicting evidence and viewpoints. Shapiro expresses confusion about how, given the rapid changes in genetics, some scientists continue to cling to established knowledge and show resistance to new ideas.

Shapiro speaks about the initial skepticism and resistance she encountered from paleoanthropologists and archaeologists when it came to the field of ancient DNA. Their research has often challenged established beliefs, such as the claim that Neanderthals and humans did not interbreed. Shapiro also highlights how new genetic evidence can overturn long-held assertions, such as the perception of beefalo as a distinct species when they are just cattle.

Joe Rogan adds that resistance is a sign of a "famine mentality" and is prevalent among people with ego-related issues. He points out that academia's competitive nature can support such behavior.

Risks and Consequences of De-extinction and Genetic Engineering Technologies

Shapiro references past controversies in academia, such as the struggle to integrate new data about the history of horses in North America, which contradicted both Native American beliefs and a lack of DNA evidence until recent findings. Furthermore, the revision of the “Clovis first” theory, which described the initial human settlement of North America, was also met with resistance. Notably, the negative reception and attacks on Jacques Cinq-Mars showcased how groundbreaking archaeological findings could be initially rejected if they contradicted the accepted narrative.

Rogan discusses the nature of academia as an exclusive community where political alignment can influence the availability of rese ...

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Challenges and Criticism Faced by Colossal and Shapiro

Additional Materials

Actionables

  • You can foster innovation by starting a book club focused on controversial or emerging scientific topics. Gather a group of friends or colleagues interested in science and select books that challenge established theories or introduce groundbreaking ideas. This encourages open-minded discussions and helps participants become comfortable with questioning and exploring unconventional concepts.
  • Encourage critical thinking by writing a blog or social media posts that analyze current scientific debates. Choose a recent scientific controversy, research both sides, and present your findings in a balanced manner. This practice not only improves your analytical skills but also contributes to a culture of healthy skepticism and debate in your network.
  • Support ethical scientific advancements by volunteering with or donating to ...

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#2338 - Beth Shapiro

Debates and Implications of De-extinction and Genetic Engineering

Beth Shapiro and Joe Rogan discuss the potential and pitfalls of new technologies involved in de-extinction and genetic engineering, raising questions about both conservation opportunities and ethical dilemmas.

Technologies' Potential in Conservation and Habitat Restoration

Genetic Rescue Examples For Reviving Endangered Populations

Beth Shapiro explains that the same technology used for de-extinction can also apply to conservation efforts. Genetic rescue, for instance, introduces new genetic diversity into inbred populations, which can help enhance the survival of endangered species, such as using what's learned from red wolf DNA in Louisiana.

Shapiro discusses how extracting DNA directly from sediments can reconstruct past ecosystems, which could play a role in understanding and restoring habitats. This suggests potential uses of ancient DNA in conservation. Shapiro states that technologies involving ancient DNA and genome engineering could prevent species from becoming extinct.

Moreover, Shapiro taught an introductory biology class which engaged in the debate on whether wolves should be reintroduced into California. This promoted critical thinking about species reintroduction and habitat restoration.

Ethical and Societal Impacts Of Altering Nature, Including "Playing God" Concerns

Shapiro argues that humans have always "played God," whether by causing extinctions or domesticating species. She suggests that new DNA-altering technologies are extensions of these historic human impacts on nature and could help fix ecological damage. She points out that the current extinction rate, mostly due to human activity, could be mitigated with these new tools. She emphasizes that making the fewest genetic edits necessary is a cautious approach in their de-extinction work.

Joe Rogan highlights potential comprehensive effects on ecosystems and references Florida's struggles with Burmese pythons as an example of the unforeseen consequences. Rogan and Shapiro also discuss whether reintroducing animals like elephants to regions where extinct mammoths once lived could be considered introducing invasive species. Shapiro discusses the imperative of operating within regulatory frameworks and biological realities, suggesting the need for public perception and interdisciplinary work to use these technologies responsibly.

Public Engagement and Interdisciplinary Collaboration in Responsible Tech Development

The conversation between Rogan and Shapi ...

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Debates and Implications of De-extinction and Genetic Engineering

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Genetic rescue involves introducing genetic diversity into populations that have become inbred, which can help improve their health and survival. Inbred populations often suffer from reduced genetic variation, making them more vulnerable to diseases and environmental changes. By bringing in new genes through genetic rescue, populations can become more resilient and adaptable to challenges they face. This process can be crucial for the conservation and restoration of endangered species facing genetic issues.
  • Extracting DNA from sediments involves retrieving genetic material from layers of soil or sediment. This DNA can come from ancient organisms that lived in the past. Scientists can analyze this genetic material to understand the biodiversity and ecological history of an area, helping in the reconstruction of past ecosystems. This technique provides insights into the species that existed in a particular location over time, even if physical remains are not well-preserved.
  • Ancient DNA technologies involve extracting and analyzing genetic material from ancient remains like sediments to understand past ecosystems and genetic diversity. Genome engineering technologies allow scientists to make precise changes to the DNA of living organisms, potentially aiding in species preservation efforts by addressing genetic issues that threaten their survival. These technologies can be used to enhance genetic diversity in endangered populations, improve breeding programs, and potentially prevent extinctions by addressing genetic challenges faced by species in the wild. By leveraging ancient DNA and genome engineering, researchers aim to develop innovative conservation strategies to protect and restore biodiversity.
  • The reintroduction of wolves in California for habitat restoration involves considering the ecological benefits of having wolves in the ecosystem, such as controlling prey populations and promoting biodiversity. This action aims to restore natural predator-prey dynamics that were disrupted due to historical extirpation. Reintroducing wolves can have cascading effects on the environment, influencing vegetation growth and the behavior of other species. It is a complex conservation strategy that requires careful planning and consideration of various stakeholders' perspectives.
  • Genetic technologies can have unintended impacts on ecosystems, such as altering the balance of species or introducing new genetic traits that disrupt natural processes. For example, the introduction of genetically modified organisms could lead to ecological imbalances or unintended consequences in food chains. It's crucial to consider the potential ripple effects of genetic engineering on the environment before implementing such tech ...

Counterarguments

  • Genetic diversity introduced through genetic rescue might not always result in enhanced survival due to potential mismatches between introduced genes and the current environment or ecosystem.
  • Reconstructing past ecosystems using DNA from sediments may not account for ongoing climate change and other modern environmental factors, potentially leading to restoration efforts that are not sustainable in the long term.
  • The prevention of extinction through ancient DNA and genome engineering may lead to unintended consequences, such as the disruption of current ecosystems or the creation of organisms that cannot survive without human intervention.
  • The reintroduction of species, such as wolves into California, could lead to conflicts with human interests, such as livestock predation, and may not always be supported by the local communities.
  • The argument that humans have historically influenced nature and should continue to do so with new technologies may overlook the value of natural evolutionary processes and the intrinsic worth of ecosystems unaltered by human intervention.
  • The cautious approach of making the fewest genetic edits necessary may not be sufficient to prevent unintended ecological impacts or ethical issues related to animal welfare.
  • Concerns about introducing invasive species through de-extinction efforts may be valid, as the long-term ecological impacts of such introductions are difficult to predict and could be detrimental.
  • Regulatory frameworks may not be able to keep pace with the rapid development of genetic technologies, leading to gaps in governance and oversight.
  • Public engagement and interdisciplinary collaboration, while important, may not always lead to consensus or responsible development, as different stakeholders have varying values and priorities.
  • Trust in the responsible use of genetic technologies assum ...

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