Podcasts > The Joe Rogan Experience > #2308 - Jordan Peterson

#2308 - Jordan Peterson

By Joe Rogan

In this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan explore the psychology of individuals with psychopathic and narcissistic traits, discussing how they use manipulation and false victimhood to advance their agendas. They examine the role of responsibility and self-sacrifice in society, using biblical narratives to illustrate the differences between leadership through service versus power.

The conversation covers Peterson's alternative to traditional universities, the Peterson Academy, which aims to provide affordable education focused on practical skills and moral reasoning. Peterson and Rogan also discuss climate change policy and activism, examining the complexity of climate data interpretation and the potential socioeconomic impacts of various environmental policies.

#2308 - Jordan Peterson

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#2308 - Jordan Peterson

1-Page Summary

Psychology and Moral Failings of Power-Seeking Psychopaths and Narcissists

In a discussion between Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan, Peterson examines how individuals with psychopathic and narcissistic traits exploit false victimhood and manipulation for personal gain. He notes that approximately 4-5% of the population have Cluster B personality disorders and use deceit and fear to advance their agendas rather than pursue genuine intellectual progress. Peterson particularly warns about their prevalence in academia, where empathetic individuals without strong boundaries become susceptible to manipulation.

Key Role of Responsibility, Sacrifice, and Tradition in Society

Peterson explores the importance of self-sacrifice and responsibility in society, drawing from biblical narratives. He contrasts the fulfillment found in service and creating order against the hollow pursuit of hedonistic goals. Peterson emphasizes that men should lead and set boundaries rather than enable destructive behavior, using examples like Moses and Abraham to illustrate the transformational nature of leadership through sacrifice rather than power.

Peterson's Alternative to Modern University's Flaws

Expressing dissatisfaction with modern universities' ideological capture and poor educational quality, Peterson introduces his alternative: the Peterson Academy. The academy aims to provide affordable, high-quality education with practical skills and moral reasoning. Already enrolling 40,000 students, it offers a two-year program equivalent to a four-year university education, featuring top professors and an engaged community platform.

Critiques of Climate Change/Apocalypse Narrative and Agenda

Peterson and Rogan challenge the current climate change narrative, with Peterson suggesting that figures like Mark Carney exploit climate crisis fears to promote centralized control. They discuss how climate complexity often exceeds activist and policymaker narratives, with Rogan noting that conclusions about climate change vary significantly depending on the timeframe examined. Peterson criticizes how climate policies can disproportionately affect the poorest while potentially undermining individual freedoms.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • The prevalence of psychopathic and narcissistic traits in academia and their impact on empathetic individuals could be overstated, as there is a lack of empirical evidence to support the claim that these traits are more common in academic settings than in other professional environments.
  • The notion that self-sacrifice and responsibility are the most crucial elements in society could be challenged by alternative views that emphasize the importance of individual fulfillment and self-care, arguing that a balance between personal and societal needs is essential for a healthy community.
  • The idea that men should lead and set boundaries might be seen as an outdated gender role, with critics advocating for a more inclusive approach to leadership that values contributions from all genders equally.
  • While the Peterson Academy may offer an alternative to traditional universities, critics might argue that the effectiveness of a two-year program compared to a four-year education has not been sufficiently proven, and the quality of education might vary depending on the field of study.
  • The critique of the climate change narrative could be countered by pointing out the broad scientific consensus on the urgency of addressing climate change, and the argument that policies could undermine individual freedoms might be seen as overlooking the potential long-term benefits of proactive environmental measures for society as a whole.
  • The claim that climate policies disproportionately affect the poorest could be met with the argument that inaction on climate change is likely to have even more severe impacts on vulnerable populations, and that well-designed policies can mitigate these effects and promote social equity.

Actionables

  • You can develop critical thinking skills by practicing identifying logical fallacies and cognitive biases in daily conversations, which helps in recognizing manipulation tactics. Start by learning about common fallacies and biases, then listen actively in discussions, and when you spot a potential manipulation, mentally note it or jot it down. Over time, this will sharpen your ability to discern genuine arguments from deceitful ones.
  • Enhance your personal boundaries by creating a "boundaries journal" where you reflect on interactions that made you uncomfortable and why. Use this journal to document situations where you felt your boundaries were pushed, and write down how you responded and how you would prefer to respond in the future. This practice will help you establish and maintain stronger personal boundaries, making you less susceptible to manipulation.
  • To contribute to societal responsibility, volunteer for a local organization that aligns with your values, focusing on roles that require self-sacrifice and leadership. Choose a cause you care about, such as a food bank, animal shelter, or literacy program, and take on responsibilities that challenge you to lead by example and make personal sacrifices. This hands-on approach allows you to embody the principles of service and order creation in your community.

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#2308 - Jordan Peterson

Psychology and Moral Failings of Power-Seeking Psychopaths and Narcissists

Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan discuss the troubling psychology and moral failings of individuals with psychopathic and narcissistic traits, particularly their exploitation of false victimhood and deceit to manipulate others and gain power.

Psychopaths and Narcissists Exploit False Victimhood For Manipulation and Power

Peterson touches on the concept of "feigning competence," where individuals pretend to be more capable or victimized than they are. This behavior, he notes, is often exhibited by psychopaths and individuals with Cluster B personality disorders such as narcissistic and histrionic traits. He pinpoints the use of false claims of victimization as a manipulative tool that exploits empathy. This approach is seen as pernicious because it diverts the quest for knowledge into a narcissistic advantage, where ideas are used as weapons to propel self-interest.

Psychopaths and Narcissists Use Deceit, Compulsion, and Fear to Advance Self-Interest, Not Genuine Moral or Intellectual Progress

Peterson details how approximately four to five percent of the population have Cluster B personality disorders and utilize deceit, compulsion, and fear to assert dominance and further their agendas. The ideas that these individuals adopt are inconsequential to their true motive, which is to assert their narcissistic benefit rather than to engage in genuine moral or intellectual progress.

Psychopaths and Narcissists Seek Influence in Academia

Psychopaths, Narcissists Enabled by Overly Empathetic, Boundary-Averse Individuals

Peterson warns about "false prophets" and "false gurus," who seek success and influence despite such success being hollow due to the absence of genuine social bonds and empathy. He notes that the left side of the political spectrum tends to be full of empathic people who are highly susceptible to manipulation. This susceptibility allows psychopaths and narcissists to thrive by parasitizing empathy, particularly within academic environments that lack ...

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Psychology and Moral Failings of Power-Seeking Psychopaths and Narcissists

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • While it is true that some individuals with psychopathic or narcissistic traits may exploit false victimhood, it is important to recognize that not all individuals with these traits engage in such behavior, and it is a stereotype to assume they will.
  • The assertion that deceit, compulsion, and fear are tools used exclusively by those with Cluster B personality disorders to advance self-interest could be challenged by noting that these behaviors can be found across a wide spectrum of individuals, regardless of their psychological profile.
  • The claim that four to five percent of the population have Cluster B personality disorders and use deceit and fear to assert dominance could be countered by emphasizing the need for accurate diagnostic criteria and the potential for overdiagnosis or misdiagnosis.
  • The idea that psychopaths and narcissists seek influence in academia might be countered by highlighting the rigorous peer review and ethical standards in place that can act as barriers to manipulation and deceit.
  • The suggestion that the left side of the political spectrum is full of empathic people who are highly susceptible to manipulation could be challenged by pointing out that susceptibility to manipulation is not confined to any particular political orientation and that empathy is not inherently a weakness.
  • The notion that universities are environments without accountability and ethics could be countered by pointing out the existence of ethical review boards, academic integrity policies, and other oversight mechanisms that work to maintain ethical standards in academia.
  • The claim that academia is a "storehouse of unguarded value" ...

Actionables

  • You can develop critical thinking skills by taking an online course in logic or critical reasoning to better identify manipulative tactics. By understanding logical fallacies and emotional appeals, you'll be more equipped to discern when someone is using deceit or playing the victim to manipulate others. For example, you might take a course from a reputable online education platform and practice identifying fallacies in everyday situations, such as in advertisements or political speeches.
  • Enhance your emotional intelligence by keeping a journal where you reflect on your interactions and feelings daily. This practice can help you become more aware of your emotional responses and the triggers that make you susceptible to manipulation. For instance, if you notice you often feel sorry for people who tell you sad stories, you might be more vulnerable to false victimhood narratives. By recognizing this pattern, you can work on setting boundaries and questioning the validity of such stories.
  • Volunteer for a ...

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#2308 - Jordan Peterson

Key Role of Responsibility, Sacrifice, and Tradition in Society

Jordan Peterson explores the crucial elements of responsibility, sacrifice, and tradition, stressing their importance in the maintenance and thriving of society. He draws on biblical narratives and emphasizes the need for men to lead and act as role models.

Healthy Societies Thrive On Self-Sacrifice, Not Hedonism or Power Pursuit

Self-Sacrifice and Service as Paths to Meaning and Flourishing In Biblical Narratives

Peterson discusses the contrast between storing up "treasure in heaven" as opposed to "treasure on earth," suggesting success and status associated with hedonism and power pursuits. He discusses biblical stories such as Cain and Abel, with Abel exemplifying the ideal of bringing the best to God, a gesture of true sacrifice accepted by God, as opposed to Cain's lack of sacrifice leading to resentment and eventually violence.

He proposes that truly fulfilling experiences come from service and creating order in one’s life rather than chasing hedonistic or power-driven goals, calling for a return to core traditions crucial for the welfare of society. He also touches on the theme of love in the context of relationships, arguing that self-sacrifice is intrinsically bound to forming meaningful, lasting bonds, and highlights the Gospels' teachings on building reputational treasure through impeccable conduct.

Men Should Lead and Set Boundaries, Not Enable Destructive Behavior

Weak Men Deferring To Manipulators or Narcissists Contribute To Social Breakdown

Peterson delves into the idea of masculinity, asserting that men should lead and set boundaries, rather than yielding to or enabling destructive behavior, which contributes to society's decline. He discusses the story of Moses, who, although he led the Israelites away from tyranny, also learned that leadership requires invitation and words instead of force as demonstrated when Moses strikes the rocks, disobeying God's command to speak to them, which results in punishment.

He speaks of figures like Abraham and Moses as models for embracing responsibility, sacrifice, and tradition. Abraham’s journey of leaving his comfort zone and engaging in adventure leads to blessings and reputation, while Moses's leadership is tried and tempered through various challenges, from defending the vulnerable to confronting tyranny and leading the people to freedom.

Restoring Values and Moral Responsibility Is Crucial For Reversing Decline

Empathy Without Discernment Undermines Social Cohesion

Peterson touches on the idea of leadership as a transformational journey. He refers to Moses's journey to leadership, the cultivation of his character, and the importance of not succumbing to the temptation of power. He describes true leaders as those driven not by power, but by the willingness to make sacrifices for others.

Peterson emphasizes the necessity of self-sacrifice for successful interpersonal interactions, which requires individuals to give up being the primary focus and instead contribute to societal well-being. He reflects on the success of his lectures on Genesis, attesting to the connection between biblical narratives and modern individuals' search for meaning. He harks back to the Christian et ...

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Key Role of Responsibility, Sacrifice, and Tradition in Society

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Counterarguments

  • The emphasis on men leading and setting boundaries could be seen as gender essentialist and overlooks the value of shared leadership and decision-making between all genders.
  • The idea that self-sacrifice is the primary path to a flourishing society may not account for the importance of self-care and setting personal boundaries for mental health and well-being.
  • The focus on biblical narratives may not resonate with those of different faiths or secular viewpoints, who may find moral and societal guidance from other sources.
  • The critique of empathy without discernment might be interpreted as a dismissal of the importance of empathy in society, whereas others might argue that empathy is a fundamental human value that should be encouraged even more.
  • The notion that weak men enable destructive behavior could be seen as an oversimplification of complex social issues and may inadvertently stigmatize those who struggle with assertiveness.
  • The idea that restoring traditional values is crucial for reversing societal decline may not consider the need for societies to evolve and adapt to new challenges and changing cultural norms.
  • The concept of individual transformation and self-sacrifice as a societal panacea may ...

Actionables

  • You can foster responsibility by volunteering for a local initiative that lacks leadership. By stepping up to organize a neighborhood clean-up or a book club, you demonstrate setting boundaries and leading by example, which can inspire others to follow suit and contribute positively to the community.
  • Start a "Sacrifice Swap" with friends or family, where each person commits to giving up a small comfort or convenience for a week to help someone else. For example, you might skip your morning coffee run to save that money for a friend's fundraiser. This practice encourages empathy paired with discernment, as you learn to prioritize the needs of others in a meaningful way.
  • Create a personal "Values Journal" where you refl ...

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#2308 - Jordan Peterson

Peterson's Alternative to Modern University's Flaws

Jordan Peterson articulates his dissatisfaction with the state of modern universities, their ideological capture, and the rigid bureaucracy, leading to the creation of his alternative educational platform: the Peterson Academy.

Ideological Capture and Ethical Issues in Universities

Peterson critically views prestigious institutions like Harvard, focusing on how they prioritize cost over educational quality. He expresses particular concern over the impact of ideological groups on university administration and the ethical implications of their relationship with tuition fees and tax dollars. Addressing the difficulty of revitalizing these institutions from their current state, Peterson offers a bleak outlook for traditional higher education.

Universities Prioritize Cost Over Quality, Leading To Low-quality Online Courses

During his discussions, Peterson reveals that 40% of university courses have transitioned online, often comprising nothing more than PowerPoint presentations despite charging full tuition fees. He criticizes these institutions for adopting cost-cutting measures and providing low-quality online educational experiences as a result.

Peterson Academy Offers Affordable Practical Skills and Moral Reasoning Education

In an effort to combat the shortcomings of modern universities, Peterson Academy emerges as a fresh alternative, aiming to instill practical skills and moral reasoning. On tour, Peterson's wife, Tammy, would introduce her husband, and also discuss family business and the Peterson Academy.

Peterson Academy Offers an Alternative to Traditional Higher Education With Top Professors, Innovative Production, and an Engaged Community

Peterson outlines the mission of Peterson Academy as a holistic educational hub similar to a university, providing lectures, social experiences, and individual growth opportunities. Moreover, he talks about the introduction of an essay app run by his son to teach students to write and think, as a key feature of the academy. This comprehensive program promises a full equivalent of a four-year university education cours load in two years.

Peterson emphasizes on high content production - 32 hours monthly - focusing on affordability and quality. Additionally, the program is being translated into multiple languages to reach the developing world. Peterson Academy has already enrolled 40,000 students and features a social platform encouraging community interaction. Future plans include in-person events such as a planned cruise.

Peterson mentions the academy's affordability as a key sell ...

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Peterson's Alternative to Modern University's Flaws

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Clarifications

  • Jordan Peterson criticizes modern universities for prioritizing cost over educational quality, highlighting how prestigious institutions like Harvard have been influenced by ideological groups in their administration. He expresses concerns about the ethical implications of this influence on tuition fees and the use of tax dollars. Peterson also points out the shift to low-quality online courses, with 40% of university courses being transitioned online, often lacking in substance despite charging full tuition fees.
  • Ideological capture in prestigious institutions like Harvard occurs when certain ideologies or beliefs dominate the institution's culture, decision-making, and policies, potentially influencing academic freedom and diversity of thought. This can lead to a homogenized perspective and limited discourse within the institution, affecting the quality and breadth of education provided. Ideological capture can result in a lack of intellectual diversity and may impact the institution's ability to critically engage with a wide range of perspectives and ideas. It can also raise concerns about bias in research, teaching, and administrative practices.
  • The Peterson Academy is an alternative educational platform created by Jordan Peterson, offering practical skills and moral reasoning education. It provides a comprehensive program equivalent to a four-year university education in just two years, focusing on affordability and quali ...

Counterarguments

  • The quality of online courses can vary widely, and some universities offer high-quality online learning experiences that rival or exceed in-person instruction.
  • Ideological diversity is present in many universities, and the presence of different ideologies does not necessarily equate to ideological capture or a compromised educational experience.
  • The cost of education is a complex issue that involves more than just administrative decisions; it also includes factors like government funding, research costs, and the need for modern facilities and technology.
  • Traditional universities offer a breadth of experiences, including access to research opportunities, diverse student bodies, and extracurricular activities that may not be replicated in an online platform.
  • The effectiveness of a condensed educational program, such as completing a four-year curriculum in two years, may vary depending on the individual student's learning style, discipline, and the depth of knowledge required in their field of study.
  • The success of an educational platform should be measured not only by enrollment numbers but also by the long-term outcomes and satisfaction of its graduates.
  • The social experiences and networking opportunities provided by traditional universities can be crucial for personal and professional development, and it may be challenging for an online platform to fully replicate these benefits.
  • The qualifications and expertise of professors at traditional universities are often established through a rigorous peer-review process, which may not be as transparent or stringent in alternative educational platforms. ...

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#2308 - Jordan Peterson

Critiques of Climate Change/Apocalypse Narrative and Agenda

The narrative of an impending climate apocalypse is a contentious topic. Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, and others provide critical viewpoints regarding the way climate change is being discussed and addressed.

Power Gained Through Fear: Distorted Climate Change Narrative

Jordan Peterson discusses the exploitation of climate crisis narratives. He implies that figures like Mark Carney use the climate crisis to promote centralized control and suppress individual freedoms. Peterson describes such narratives as providing an infinitely expanding existential threat that justifies grabbing extensive power and serves as an excuse for controlling individuals.

Peterson seems critical of unnamed figures who may be using the climate crisis narrative to justify authoritarian control, particularly when restricting the use of fossil fuels in developing regions like Africa. He accuses these figures of sacrificing the world's poor to maintain power under the guise of protecting the planet while hindering the provision of cheap and sustainable energy.

Figures Like Mark Carney Exploit the Climate Crisis to Promote Centralized Control and Suppress Individual Freedoms

Jordan Peterson discusses Mark Carney's book "Values," in which Carney advocates centralized planning and prioritizing decarbonization in financial decisions. Peterson sees this as a form of narcissism and central control, where there could be casualties deemed necessary for the climate goals, which is likened to the sentiment that you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

Peterson suggests that the narrative of a climate apocalypse has been broken, implying that it's not necessary to give up freedoms for this particular apocalypse. He mentions a call by Preston Manning for an immediate Constitutional convention upon "Carney's ascension to the throne," suggesting concerns over Carney's influence.

Climate Complexity Exceeds Activist and Policymaker Narratives

Joe Rogan raises the issue of polarization surrounding climate-related topics such as meat consumption, criticizing the narrative that cow meat production is a significant environmental problem while coal plants continue to open in China. He mentions a Washington Post study showing a graph of Earth's temperature over the last 50 million years, suggesting we are actually in a cooling period.

Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan discuss how the levels of carbon dioxide and conclusions about climate change depend on the analysis's starting point. Peterson points out that when looking at longer time scales, current CO2 levels appear ...

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Critiques of Climate Change/Apocalypse Narrative and Agenda

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Climate change is a scientifically supported concern, and the consensus among experts is that urgent action is needed to mitigate its effects.
  • Centralized planning and prioritization of decarbonization can be seen as a necessary response to a global problem that requires coordinated efforts.
  • The narrative of climate change is based on extensive research and data, and while there may be varying interpretations, the core issue of human-induced climate change is widely accepted in the scientific community.
  • The transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources is aimed at long-term sustainability and is not necessarily about controlling individual freedoms but about protecting public health and the environment.
  • The shift from nuclear to coal in Germany was a complex decision influenced by public opinion following the Fukushima disaster and is not solely attributable to climate change narratives.
  • Policies aimed at reducing carbon emissions can be designed to support economic growth and development, including in poorer regions, ...

Actionables

  • You can develop critical thinking by starting a personal journal where you reflect on news articles and reports about climate change. Write down your thoughts on the motivations behind the information presented, the potential for bias, and the complexity of the issues. This practice will sharpen your ability to discern between fear-driven narratives and more nuanced discussions.
  • Create a habit of engaging in conversations with people who have different viewpoints on climate change. Approach these discussions with an open mind and a focus on understanding their perspective rather than convincing them of yours. This can help you appreciate the complexity of climate issues and recognize the diversity of thought that exists beyond the dominant narratives.
  • Volunteer with local organizations that focus on practical, community ...

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