#2301 - Ben Lamm
In this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, Ben Lamm, CEO of Colossal Biosciences, details his company's pioneering efforts in de-extinction—the process of reviving extinct species like the woolly mammoth and Tasmanian tiger through advanced genetic engineering. He reveals how Colossal utilizes modern technologies such as CRISPR, cloning, and AI to assemble ancient genomes and resurrect extinct traits in living organisms.
Lamm explores the potential ecological impacts and conservation benefits of de-extinction. He also addresses the philosophical debates surrounding the definition of a "true" original species and the regulatory hurdles facing this emerging field. Colossal's work raises intriguing scientific and ethical questions about our ability to reshape the natural world.
This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the Apr 7, 2025 episode of the The Joe Rogan Experience
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1-Page Summary
De-extinction Efforts and Methods
Colossal Biosciences: First De-extinction Company
Ben Lamm, CEO of Colossal Biosciences, introduces the first company dedicated to de-extinction and species preservation. Colossal aims to revive extinct species like the woolly mammoth, Tasmanian tiger, and dire wolf using advanced genetic technologies.
De-extinction Process Involves Ancient DNA, Relative Mapping, and CRISPR Editing
Lamm discusses assembling ancient DNA, mapping living relatives, and using CRISPR to edit key extinct traits into organisms. Colossal utilizes multiplex editing and screening to ensure healthy outcomes. Lamm hints at ancestral genome engineering to recreate dinosaur-like species.
Conservation and Ecological Impacts
Reintroducing Extinct Species Could Benefit Ecosystems
Lamm explains how reintroducing mammoths could boost Arctic environments by sequestering carbon and enhancing habitat diversity, drawing on Sergei Zimov's work at Pleistocene Park. The loss of the thylacine (Tasmanian tiger) may have enabled the Devil Facial Tumor Disease spread in Tasmania.
Colossal Pairs De-Extinction with Species Preservation
For every de-extinction effort, Colossal biobanks genetic samples of endangered relatives to aid conservation. For example, Colossal supports the genetic rescue of the Northern White Rhino and Red Wolf populations.
Technological Advancements
CRISPR and Cloning Enable Extinct Trait Engineering
Colossal uses CRISPR to engineer contemporary organisms like mice to express ancient phenotypes like woolly mammoth traits, demonstrating their genome engineering capabilities.
AI Aids Ancient Genome Assembly and Phenotype Modeling
Leveraging AI and computational biology, Colossal efficiently assembles ancient genomes from scarce DNA samples and maps complex, multi-gene traits. Their AI techniques enable amplifying DNA from unique ancient sources.
Ethical and Regulatory Considerations
Debate on "True" Species Definitions for De-extinct Animals
Critics argue Colossal's de-extinct animals are genetically modified, not true originals, highlighting philosophical discussions around species definitions based on reproductive isolation.
Regulatory Hurdles for Unproven De-extinction Technology
Lamm shares frustrations with government hesitation towards novel technologies like de-extinction cloning, necessitating lengthy studies despite proof-of-concepts.
Transparency, Collaboration, and Ethical Use Priorities
Colossal aims for transparency, engaging indigenous groups and stakeholders. Lamm stresses Colossal focuses only on de-extinction for conservation, not unethical human enhancement applications.
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Counterarguments
- The ecological impact of reintroducing extinct species is uncertain, and there may be unforeseen negative consequences on current ecosystems.
- De-extinction could divert resources and attention away from conserving existing endangered species and habitats.
- The welfare of de-extinct animals and their ability to survive in modern ecosystems are concerns that may not be fully addressed by current technologies.
- There are ethical concerns about the potential suffering of animals created through de-extinction processes, especially if they have health issues due to genetic anomalies.
- The use of CRISPR and other genetic technologies in de-extinction could lead to unintended genetic consequences or off-target effects.
- The concept of "true" species may be more complex than simply recreating certain phenotypes, and the animals produced may not be functionally equivalent to the original species.
- There may be legal and ethical issues related to the ownership and patenting of genetically resurrected species.
- Engaging indigenous groups and stakeholders is important, but their perspectives and values may not always align with the goals of de-extinction projects.
- The focus on charismatic megafauna for de-extinction may overlook the importance of less iconic but ecologically significant species.
- The long-term sustainability and integration of de-extinct species into modern ecosystems require careful consideration and planning.
Actionables
- You can support ecosystem restoration by planting native species in your garden to mimic the ecological benefits proposed by de-extinction. By researching plants that are indigenous to your area and were once part of the natural wildlife habitat, you create a mini-reserve that supports local biodiversity and can even attract and sustain wildlife species that are currently endangered or have lost their natural habitats.
- Engage in citizen science projects that focus on monitoring local wildlife, which contributes to the preservation efforts similar to biobanking genetic samples. Many conservation organizations and research groups run programs where volunteers can help track animal populations, report sightings, and collect data that's crucial for understanding and protecting species. This hands-on involvement gives you a direct role in conservation efforts.
- Educate yourself and others about the ethical considerations of genetic technologies by starting a book club or discussion group focused on the topic. Choose books and articles that explore the complexities of genetic modification, species conservation, and the implications of bringing extinct species back to life. This will foster a deeper understanding of the debates surrounding these technologies and their potential impact on our ecosystems and society.
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De-extinction Efforts and Methods
Colossal Biosciences: First De-extinction and Species Preservation Company
Ben Lamm, CEO, and co-founder of Colossal Biosciences, speaks about the world's first company dedicated to de-extinction and species preservation.
Colossal Revives Extinct Species Such as the Woolly Mammoth, Tasmanian Tiger, and Dire Wolf Using Advanced Genetic Technologies
Colossal has made significant investments in marsupial research and is working on reviving species such as the woolly mammoth, Tasmanian tiger, and dodo. The company has garnered involvement from the MHA Nation for the preservation of species like the dire wolf.
De-extinction Involves Ancient DNA, Mapping Relatives, and CRISPR for Traits
Ben Lamm discusses the complex process of extracting and assembling ancient DNA, using genetic technologies to map, edit, and bring extinct species back to life, with a focus on the key phenotypic di ...
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De-extinction Efforts and Methods
Additional Materials
Counterarguments
- Ethical concerns: There are significant ethical questions surrounding de-extinction, such as the welfare of the animals created, the impact on current ecosystems, and the prioritization of resources towards bringing back extinct species instead of conserving those that are currently endangered.
- Ecological implications: Reintroducing extinct species into modern ecosystems could have unforeseen and potentially negative impacts on existing wildlife and plant communities, as these ecosystems have evolved in the absence of these species.
- Genetic purity and authenticity: There is a debate about whether the animals produced by de-extinction efforts would be true representatives of the extinct species, given that they would likely have to be genetically modified and might contain DNA from related species.
- Technological limitations: The current state of genetic technology may not be advanced enough to accurately and safely resurrect extinct species, and there may be unforeseen technical challenges that could limit the success of de-extinction efforts.
- Conservation priorities: Some argue that the resources and attention dedicated to de-extinction could be better spent on protecting existing species and habitats that are under immediate threat.
- Animal rights: There are concerns about the right ...
Actionables
- You can support conservation efforts by adopting an animal through a wildlife charity, which contributes to preserving species that are currently endangered. By adopting an animal, you're financially supporting the work of conservationists who protect habitats and research ways to prevent species from becoming extinct, which aligns with the ethos of species preservation and de-extinction.
- Engage with citizen science projects that focus on biodiversity and species tracking to help scientists gather data on existing species and their habitats. Many projects allow you to report sightings of animals, track migration patterns, or even participate in DNA collection, which provides valuable information that can be used in conservation and potentially in future de-extinction efforts.
- Educate yourself on genetic technologies and the ...
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Conservation and Ecological Impacts of Reviving Extinct Species
Ben Lamm discusses the scientifically guided return of extinct species to the wild, focusing on its potential to rejuvenate ecosystems and aid in conservation efforts.
Reintroducing Extinct Species Like Mammoths and Thylacines Could Benefit Ecosystems
Rewilding efforts using extinct species draw insights from the successful reintroduction of wolves, Lamm explains. This intervention altered elk behaviors and ultimately reshaped river courses through trophic cascades.
Modeling: Mammoths Could Boost Arctic Environments By Sequestering Carbon and Enhancing Habitat Diversity
Ecological modeling supports the reintroduction of mammoths, which could net positive ecosystem benefits. Sergei Zimov's work at Pleistocene Park exemplifies the approach, where rewilding Northern Siberia with cold-tolerant megafauna can revitalize ecosystems, add biodiversity, and contribute to carbon sequestration by maintaining cold ground temperatures in winter.
Thylacine Loss Linked To Devil Facial Tumor Spread
The case of the thylacine, Lamm asserts, hints at combating the spread of Devil Facial Tumor Disease. By reintroducing this predator, which would naturally target sick Tasmanian devils, a balance could be restored that may check disease proliferation.
Colossal Pairs Each De-extinction Effort With Species Preservation to Ensure Technologies Help Conserve Endangered Species
Colossal Aids In Biobanking At-risk Species' Genetic Diversity
Lamm emphasizes Colossal's dual focus on both de-extinction and the conservation of endangered species. With every de-extinction project, a species preservation initiative is paired. For example, Colossal's technology supports the genetic rescue of the Northern White ...
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Conservation and Ecological Impacts of Reviving Extinct Species
Additional Materials
Counterarguments
- The ecological impacts of reintroducing extinct species are uncertain and could lead to unforeseen consequences in modern ecosystems.
- Rewilding with extinct species is not directly comparable to the reintroduction of wolves, as extinct species have been absent for much longer periods and ecosystems have since evolved.
- The introduction of megafauna like mammoths to the Arctic could disrupt current wildlife and plant communities that have adapted to the absence of these large herbivores.
- The effectiveness of mammoths in sequestering carbon and enhancing habitat diversity is based on models and not proven in practice.
- Reintroducing thylacines to control Devil Facial Tumor Disease assumes they would naturally target sick individuals, which may not reflect actual predatory behavior.
- De-extinction and species preservation efforts require significant resources that might be more effectively used for habitat protection and existing conservation programs.
- Biobanking and genetic rescue efforts, while valuable, do not address the root causes of species decline, such as habitat loss and climate change.
- The partnership with 48 conservation organizations, while impressive, does not guarantee the success of conservation projects or ...
Actionables
- You can support ecosystem restoration by adopting a patch of land and managing it for native species rewilding. Start by researching native plants and animals in your area and then work to create a habitat that supports them, such as planting native trees or constructing a pond to attract amphibians and insects. This personal rewilding project can contribute to local biodiversity and offer insights into the larger-scale efforts discussed.
- Engage in citizen science projects that monitor local wildlife and contribute to data on species recovery. Look for apps or online platforms where you can record sightings of local fauna, especially those that are part of reintroduction efforts. Your observations can help scientists track the progress of these species and understand their impact on the ecosystem.
- Reduce your carbon footprint to indirectly support the sequestra ...
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Technological Advancements in Synthetic Biology and Genetic Engineering
Colossal Biosciences is spearheading efforts in de-extinction and conservation using next-generation genome engineering tools.
Colossal Uses Crispr and Cloning For De-extinction Through Genome Engineering
Utilizing CRISPR and other genetic editing technologies, Colossal Biosciences aims to resurrect extinct species by engineering contemporary species to express ancient phenotypes.
Colossal Edits Multiple Genes to Resurrect Extinct Traits in Model Organisms
Colossal is employing multiplex editing tools to make precise genetic edits, as they've demonstrated by producing "woolly mice"—mice with engineered traits of the woolly mammoth, which served as a proof of concept. Ben Lamm of Colossal discusses the complexities of such genome engineering, such as the need to manage gene expression carefully to prevent increasing susceptibility to disease, highlighting the edits needed to express woolly mammoth traits in mice. Joe Rogan mentions "waking up" dormant genes, suggesting that techniques like CRISPR are used to activate certain genes. Lamm also acknowledges the potential of these technologies to produce organisms reminiscent of those depicted in movies like Jurassic Park.
AI and Computational Biology Advancements Enable Efficient Ancient Genome Assembly and Phenotype Modeling by Colossal
Colossal leverages AI and computational biology in conjunction with CRISPR to efficiently assemble genomes from ancient DNA samples, mapping complex traits that involve clusters of genes.
Colossal Develops Techniques to Extract and Amplify DNA From Ancient Samples
Colossal Biosciences is pushing the envelope in extracting and amplifying DNA from ancient specimens, working with museums to obtain unique samples like giant sloth feces. Ben Lamm explains that they use AI and software to read entire genomes multiple times and fill in gaps, which suggests a sophisticated approach to assembling fragmented ancient DNA. This process not only supports de-extinction efforts but also contributes to understanding genetic resistance, such as their study on the genetic mutation that provides certain South American mammals and s ...
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Technological Advancements in Synthetic Biology and Genetic Engineering
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Counterarguments
- Ethical concerns: There are ethical questions surrounding de-extinction, such as the potential impact on current ecosystems, the welfare of the animals created, and whether resources could be better spent on conserving existing species.
- Ecological implications: Reintroducing extinct species could have unforeseen ecological consequences, potentially disrupting current ecosystems and harming existing species.
- Genetic purity and authenticity: The animals produced by de-extinction efforts may not be genetically identical to the original extinct species, raising questions about the authenticity of the "resurrected" organisms.
- Technological limitations: Current genetic engineering technologies may not yet be advanced enough to fully recreate complex traits or revive extinct species, and there may be limits to what can be achieved.
- Focus on charismatic megafauna: The focus on de-extincting large, well-known species like the woolly mammoth may overshadow the conservation needs of less charismatic but equally important species.
- Commercialization concerns: The commercial aspects of de-extinction, such as creating spin-off companies, might prioritize profit over conservation and ethical considerations.
- Animal rights: Some argue that creating animals through genetic engineering for the purpose of de-extinction may violate the rights of these animals, as they are brought into existence for human purposes and may suffer in captivity or in envir ...
Actionables
- You can support conservation efforts by adopting or sponsoring an animal through a wildlife conservation organization. By doing this, you contribute to the preservation of species that are currently endangered, aligning with the ethos of using science for conservation. For example, many zoos and wildlife funds offer adoption programs where your donation goes towards the care and research of the animals.
- Explore citizen science projects that focus on biodiversity and contribute data from your local area. These projects often rely on the public to observe and report on wildlife, which helps scientists track species populations and migration patterns. For instance, using an app like iNaturalist to record sightings of local wildlife can provide valuable data for conservationists.
- Educate yourself on the ethical considerations of de-extinction and genome editin ...
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Ethical, Regulatory, and Societal Considerations Around De-extinction
The conversation featuring Joe Rogan and Ben Lamm of Colossal Biosciences delves into the nuanced debates and challenges surrounding the growing field of de-extinction.
Philosophical and Scientific Debate on "Species" Definitions and De-extinct Animals
Critics Say De-extinct Animals Are Just Genetically Modified, Not True Originals
Lamm discusses the complexities of what constitutes a species, pointing out that there is no consensus among scientists. Some paleontologists focus on tooth morphology, while others use reproductive isolation as the benchmark. The critics compare Colossal’s de-extinct animals to genetically modified organisms, not true originals. Lamm touches on philosophical arguments that arise when discussing if an organism that can't breed with another due to genetic modifications is indeed its own species. These viewpoints highlight the crux of debate about whether the resulting animal from de-extinction efforts, like mammoths and dire wolves, is a true original or a human construct.
Colossal Faces Hurdles as Government Hesitates on Unproven Tech
Ben Lamm shares his frustration with government officials who, despite being shown a cloned wolf, declared the need for a lengthy study to understand if cloning wolves is possible. This indicates the cautious stance of regulatory bodies towards unproven technologies like de-extinction. It also underscores the difficulties Colossal faces in gaining acceptance for their work.
Colossal Aims For Transparency and Collaboration With Stakeholders, Including Indigenous Groups, to Navigate Challenges
Lamm stresses Colossal's intent to be open-source with their clone-from-blood model and plans to collaborate with various groups, including the Department of the Interior, academics, private landowners, indigenous people, and governments. He explicitly mentions their effort to engage stakeholders in their thylacine project, indicating an endeavor towards transparency and cooperation amid the company's pioneering efforts.
De-extinction Tech Misuse: Fears of "Super-Soldier" Creation
Joe Rogan rai ...
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Ethical, Regulatory, and Societal Considerations Around De-extinction
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Counterarguments
- Critics might argue that even if de-extinct animals are not true originals, they could still have ecological value or contribute to biodiversity.
- Some may contend that the definition of a species is inherently fluid and evolving, and thus de-extinct animals could be considered a new form of life that fits within the modern understanding of biodiversity.
- There could be a perspective that the uncertainty about the authenticity of de-extinct animals is less important than the potential benefits they might bring to ecosystems and scientific understanding.
- It could be argued that government hesitation is a prudent approach to ensure safety and ethical considerations are thoroughly addressed before proceeding with de-extinction.
- Others might suggest that the challenges Colossal faces are typical of any pioneering scientific endeavor and that perseverance and continued innovation are key to eventual acceptance.
- While Colossal aims for transparency and collaboration, some may point out that the interests of all stakeholders, especially indigenous groups, must be genuinely respected and pr ...
Actionables
- You can foster informed discussions by starting a book club focused on the ethical implications of emerging technologies. Choose literature that explores the moral and societal impacts of genetic engineering and de-extinction, which will help you and your group members develop a nuanced understanding of the issues at hand. For example, select a mix of science fiction and non-fiction books that tackle the subject from different angles, encouraging members to consider the broader consequences of such technologies.
- Enhance your critical thinking skills by writing a blog or social media posts that explore hypothetical scenarios involving de-extinction. Use your imagination to create stories or thought experiments that question the boundaries of species definition and the role of human intervention in nature. This activity will help you articulate your own stance on these complex topics and engage with others who might provide different perspectives.
- Support transparency in scientific endeavors by becomi ...
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