Podcasts > The Joe Rogan Experience > #2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson

#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson

By Joe Rogan

This episode centers around the grave injustice of the wrongful convictions of the "Ohio 4" - Al Cleveland, John Edwards, Lenworth Edwards, and Benson Davis - for the murder of Marsha Blakely. The charges were based solely on fabricated testimony from a paid informant, while compelling evidence pointed to their innocence. Although former prosecutor J.D. Tomlinson diligently reviewed the case and sought justice through dismissing charges, a new prosecutor undermined those efforts, keeping innocent men imprisoned. The discussion highlights concerning biases in the judicial system, such as judges with prosecutorial ties denying hearings and warning witnesses against testifying. The conversation also explores systemic issues enabling wrongful convictions, like lack of accountability for prosecutorial misconduct and disproportionate impacts on marginalized communities. Ultimately, the episode advocates for reforms to prioritize justice over mere legal victories at all costs.

#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson

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#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson

1-Page Summary

The Ohio 4: Wrongful Murder Convictions

A grave injustice occurred in the conviction of four men - Al Cleveland, John Edwards, Lenworth Edwards, and Benson Davis - known as the "Ohio 4." Their convictions for the murder of Marsha Blakely were based solely on false testimony from a paid informant, William Avery Jr., who later admitted to fabricating the entire story. As J.D. Tomlinson remarked, Avery Jr.'s testimony did not align with the crime scene evidence and was wholly unreliable.

Overwhelming Evidence of Innocence

Not only was the key testimony flawed, but compelling evidence demonstrated the Ohio 4's innocence. Avery Jr.'s descriptions contradicted the crime scene, and Al Cleveland had an ironclad alibi - J.D. Tomlinson found it impossible for Cleveland to have been in Ohio during the murder, as he was provably in New York City, sighted by multiple witnesses.

A Prosecutor's Efforts Toward Justice

Former prosecutor J.D. Tomlinson diligently reviewed the case and found no evidence supporting the Ohio 4's guilt. Believing wrongful convictions could be prevented by having prosecutors with defense experience, Tomlinson moved swiftly to grant a new trial and dismiss all charges. In a rare act, he even apologized to the wrongfully convicted men.

Prosecutor Sillo's Concerning Actions

However, when new Prosecutor Tony Sillo took over, he withdrew state support for dismissing the charges, undermining Tomlinson's efforts and keeping innocent men imprisoned. Josh Dubin expressed caution over Sillo's potential bias against claims of innocence.

Judicial Bias and Systemic Resistance

The battle to overturn wrongful convictions faces numerous obstacles, including concerning judicial biases and systemic resistance highlighted in the Ohio 4 case.

Questionable Judge Rulings

Despite the federal government suggesting Al Cleveland's likely innocence, one judge with prosecutorial ties denied him relief without a hearing. Another judge warned Avery Jr. of perjury charges if he testified to their innocence. Notably, the same judge who initially backed Tomlinson later questioned holding an urgent hearing.

As Tomlinson noted, prosecutors resist admitting mistakes, while Dubin criticized the lack of consequences when exculpatory evidence is withheld. Legal hurdles abound, with federal courts having to mandate hearings based on credible innocence claims. Overcoming wrongful convictions requires monumental efforts.

Bias, Accountability, and Reform

The case underscores the criminal justice system's critical need for accountability and reform to address racial bias against marginalized groups like the black Ohio 4. As Joe Rogan stated, the prosecution's zeal to win can tragically undermine justice.

Dubin and Tomlinson advocate for reforms, including independent case reviews to eliminate bias, consequences for prosecutorial misconduct, and prioritizing justice over winning at all costs. Rogan suggests prosecution-independent oversight to prevent wrongful convictions from ever reaching trial unfairly. Wrongful convictions disproportionately impact disadvantaged communities, and accountability is crucial to uphold justice.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Actionables

  • You can educate yourself on the legal system by reading books and articles written by legal experts, exonerees, and advocates for criminal justice reform to understand the complexities and flaws that lead to wrongful convictions. By becoming more informed, you can engage in informed discussions, recognize biases in legal proceedings, and support reforms that aim to improve the system.
  • Start a book club focused on criminal justice themes, inviting members of your community to read and discuss works that explore wrongful convictions, prosecutorial misconduct, and systemic biases. This can foster a local dialogue about the need for accountability and reform in the justice system, and potentially lead to community-driven initiatives or support for existing advocacy groups.
  • Volunteer with or donate to organizations that work to overturn wrongful convictions, such as the Innocence Project or local legal aid societies. Your contribution, whether it's time or financial support, can help provide resources for those fighting for exoneration and raise awareness about the issues within the criminal justice system.

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#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson

Ohio 4 Case and Evidence Against Men

The Ohio 4 case demonstrates how four men were wrongfully convicted of murder based on false testimony and ignored exculpatory evidence.

Four Men Wrongfully Convicted Of Murder

Marsha Blakely's Murder: Unreliable Informant Admitted Fabricating Story

In the 1990s, Marsha Blakely was brutally murdered. Following her death, long-time paid informant William Avery Sr. brought forward his son, William Avery Jr., who falsely claimed to have information about Blakely's murder. He pointed the finger at Al Cleveland, John Edwards, Lenworth Edwards, and Benson Davis, suggesting Al Cleveland had confessed to the murder. However, Avery Jr.'s story did not match the physical crime scene evidence. Over time, Avery Jr. admitted he fabricated the entire story for reward money. J.D. Tomlinson remarked on the conviction, which hinged on Avery Jr.'s testimony, referring to him as the "worst witness" he'd ever seen. Federal courts later recognized that the key witness at trial later admitted to making up the story.

Exculpatory Evidence Showing Ohio 4's Innocence Was Ignored

Avery's Testimony Contradicted by Crime Scene Evidence

The case took a turn when it became apparent that Avery Jr. had fabricated his story. He described a violent scene within an apartment where he alleged the victim was beaten, but crime scene evidence indicated the apartment was pristine, contradicting his account. Furthermore, he initially claimed to have witnessed the crime, which was impossible as there was no evidence of the crime in the apartment.

Al Cleveland Was in NYC, ...

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Ohio 4 Case and Evidence Against Men

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Actionables

  • You can develop critical thinking skills by analyzing news stories for inconsistencies, much like the discrepancies found between Avery Jr.'s testimony and the physical evidence. Start by selecting a news article, read it thoroughly, and then list any claims made. Research each claim to verify its accuracy and note any contradictions or unsupported statements. This practice will sharpen your ability to discern truth from fiction in everyday information.
  • Enhance your understanding of the justice system by participating in a mock trial. Gather a group of friends or join a community class where you can role-play different positions within a trial, such as the witness, defense attorney, or prosecutor. This hands-on experience will give you insight into the complexities of legal proceedings and the importance of reliable testimony.
  • Improve your personal record-keeping ...

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#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson

Prosecutors J.D. Tomlinson and Incoming Prosecutor: Actions and Decisions

J.D. Tomlinson and incoming Prosecutor Tony Sillo have made contrasting choices regarding the exoneration efforts for the individuals known as the Ohio 4, reflecting differing perspectives on the handling of potential wrongful convictions.

J.D. Tomlinson Acknowledged Ohio 4's Innocence and Acted to Amend This

J.D. Tomlinson advocates for prosecutors with experience as defense attorneys, believing it provides insight into how wrongful convictions can occur. He spent significant time reviewing the Ohio 4 case and visiting the alleged crime scene. Despite searching for evidence to confirm guilt, he found it obvious that the Ohio 4 were not guilty. Tomlinson was proud to recount cases like that of Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen as the highlight of his career, where he helped exonerate individuals who had been wrongfully convicted with one serving 15 years and another 25 years.

Tomlinson Found Insufficient Proof of the Men's Guilt

During his review, Tomlinson waited to find evidence of guilt that never came. He was struck by Avery Junior's insufficient testimony and the lack of physical evidence. Tomlinson believed there was not enough proof to sustain the convictions.

Tomlinson Moved to Grant a New Trial and Dismiss Charges for the Ohio 4

Tomlinson showed a sense of urgency in addressing the case, fearing it might not be resolved otherwise. He took the unusual step of filing a joint motion for a new trial for the Ohio 4, acknowledging that the evidence to prove their guilt was insufficient. He also apologized to the exonerated individuals in a court hearing, an act rarely seen from a prosecutor.

Prosecutor Sillo Undermines Tomlinson's Efforts to Exonerate Ohio 4

Despite J.D. Tomlinson's efforts to address wrongful convictions, incoming Prosecutor Tony Sillo's actions have appeared contrary ...

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Prosecutors J.D. Tomlinson and Incoming Prosecutor: Actions and Decisions

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Clarifications

  • Exoneration in the legal context means to clear someone of guilt or blame for a crime they were convicted of. A motion for a new trial is a formal request to the court to hold a new trial in a case. Dismissing charges means dropping the legal accusations against someone, effectively ending the criminal case against them. State support in this context typically involves the resources and backing provided by the government to pursue legal actions or decisions.
  • Prosecutors play a crucial role in addressing wrongful convictions by reviewing cases, assessing evidence, and deciding whether to pursue exoneration efforts. Their responsibilities include ensuring justice is served by acknowledging and rectifying miscarriages of justice when they occur. Prosecutors have the authority to file motions for new trials, dismiss charges, and advocate for the release of wrongfully convicted individuals. It is essential for prosecutors to act with integrity, fairness, and a commitment to upholding the principles of justice in handling cases of potential wrongful conv ...

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#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson

Challenges In Overturning Wrongful Convictions

The legal hurdles and questions about judicial bias become obstacles in the battle to overturn wrongful convictions, as discussed by Josh Dubin and J.D. Tomlinson in the case of the Ohio 4.

Judges Showed Bias and Questionable Rulings

Judge First Backed Tomlinson, Later Denied Retrial

Dubin mentions that one judge who denied relief in the Ohio 4 case previously worked in the prosecutor's office, indicating potential bias. This same judge, despite the federal government suggesting that Al Cleveland, one of the Ohio 4, is likely innocent, denied Cleveland post-conviction relief without calling for a hearing. Additionally, the judge who initially supported Tomlinson’s efforts for a new trial, issued a starkly different order later on, questioning the emergency of a hearing and the successor prosecutor’s ability to fairly evaluate the defendants’ claims.

Judge Warns Witness of Perjury For Claiming Men's Innocence

William Avery Jr., who in 2004 admitted to the FBI that he lied about the murder and falsely implicated the men, was told by Judge Rothgery that he could face perjury charges should he testify that the men didn't commit the crime. Avery Jr. did not testify at the post-conviction hearing and later expressed to reporters that he fabricated the story but was not willing to go to jail for perjury.

Justice System Resists Overturning Convictions Despite New Evidence

Prosecutors Wield Power, Discretion, and Resist Admitting Mistakes

Dubin raises concerns about the resistance within the justice system to overturn convictions despite new evidence, such as a lack of consequences for prosecutors who fail to turn over exculpatory evidence. Tomlinson speaks to the state’s protective stance and its unwillingness to admit internal mistakes. A federal court ordered a lower court to give Cleveland a hearing based on his credible claim of innocence, yet the system shows signs of resistance, as evidenced by a federal court having to ...

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Challenges In Overturning Wrongful Convictions

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Counterarguments

  • Judges may deny post-conviction relief without a hearing based on the merits of the case as presented in legal briefs and filings, not necessarily due to bias.
  • A judge's previous work in the prosecutor's office does not automatically indicate bias, as judges are expected to follow the law impartially regardless of their past roles.
  • Changes in a judge's rulings could be due to new legal arguments, evidence, or procedural issues rather than bias or questionable rulings.
  • Judge Rothgery's warning to a witness about perjury could be seen as upholding the integrity of the legal process, ensuring that testimony is truthful.
  • The resistance to overturning convictions might be attributed to the legal principle of finality, which aims to maintain the stability and predictability of the justice system.
  • Prosecutors may resist admitting mistakes due to a genuine belief in the guilt of the convicted based on the evidence they have, rather than a refusal to acknowledge errors.
  • The complexity of legal hurdles and constitutional issues is inherent in ...

Actionables

  • You can educate yourself on jury service to make informed decisions if called upon. By understanding the weight of your role as a juror, you can help prevent wrongful convictions. Start by reading materials from the American Bar Association or similar legal resources to grasp the basics of legal proceedings and the importance of impartiality.
  • Volunteer with organizations that work to overturn wrongful convictions. Even without legal expertise, you can offer support through fundraising, awareness campaigns, or administrative help. Organizations like the Innocence Project often need volunteers to assist with various tasks that contribute to their mission.
  • Write to your representatives to advocate ...

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#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson

Wrongful Convictions and the Criminal Justice System

Wrongful Convictions Disproportionately Impact Marginalized and Disadvantaged Communities

Wrongful convictions have significant and long-lasting effects on individuals and communities, particularly those that are marginalized.

The Ohio 4: Black Men and Racial Bias

In one instance, Al Cleveland, along with other black men referred to as the Ohio 4, were wrongfully convicted and spent close to 30 years in prison, suggesting racial bias. Josh Dubin points out the different experiences of black Americans compared to white Americans within the justice system. He discusses how systemic issues and the residual effects of Jim Crow laws contribute to the racial bias in cases like that of the Ohio 4.

Criminal Justice System Needs Accountability and Reform

The criminal justice system's competitiveness and lack of accountability in prosecutions have been highlighted as significant issues needing reform.

Prioritize Justice Over Winning: Acknowledge Mistakes

Joe Rogan raises the issue of prosecution teams prioritizing winning over justice, leading to wrongful prosecutions. Dubin mentions the psychological difficulty prosecutors face in admitting they've made mistakes. This insistence on winning at all costs needs reform to ensure justice is prioritized. J.D. Tomlinson also points out the necessity for accountability and the importance of admitting wrongdoings by prosecutors to maintain the system's integrity.

Enhancing Justice Independence and Oversight ...

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Wrongful Convictions and the Criminal Justice System

Additional Materials

Actionables

  • You can educate yourself on jury service to make informed decisions if called upon. By understanding the importance of evidence, the presumption of innocence, and the impact of bias, you'll be better equipped to serve justly on a jury. For example, read up on the role of a juror, the significance of exculpatory evidence, and how to recognize and mitigate personal biases.
  • Start a book club focused on novels and non-fiction works that explore the justice system and wrongful convictions. This encourages empathy and awareness among your peers. Choose books that delve into the experiences of those affected by wrongful convictions and discuss them to gain a deeper understanding of the systemic issues at play.
  • Volunteer with orga ...

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