Podcasts > The Joe Rogan Experience > #2258 - Steven Rinella

#2258 - Steven Rinella

By Joe Rogan

The Joe Rogan Experience welcomes Steven Rinella, who offers insights into North America's fur trade history and early economic expansion driven by the trapping and trading of valuable beaver pelts. Rinella delves into the peopling of the Americas, examining archaeological evidence challenging the "Clovis First" hypothesis and suggesting earlier migration waves from Siberia.

Rinella recounts tales of explorers facing survival challenges and describes experiments to better understand prehistoric tools. The discussion navigates ethical tensions surrounding the study and display of indigenous ancestral remains, exploring complexities surrounding repatriation and respecting cultural considerations.

#2258 - Steven Rinella

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#2258 - Steven Rinella

1-Page Summary

Fur Trade and Early North American Industries

The fur trade, particularly the trapping and trading of valuable beaver pelts, spurred early economic expansion and exploration in North America, as Steven Rinella discusses. Pelts were shipped across the Atlantic to supply Europe's wool felt industry, driving the "mountain men" era. However, intense trapping depleted beaver populations by the 1840s, effectively ending the fur trade.

Peopling of the Americas

Archaeological evidence challenges the "Clovis First" hypothesis of the first Americans arriving via an ice-free corridor. Rinella highlights finds suggesting an earlier coastal migration along the Pacific, termed the "Kelp Highway" theory. The Anzick child also implies Clovis were mammoth hunters, not scavengers. Genetic data points to multiple migration waves from Siberia populating the Americas.

Challenges and Mysteries of Survival and Discoveries

Rinella recounts tales of explorers facing starvation, like "John the Baptist" and the Donner Party, and describes experiments butchering bison to understand prehistoric tools. He discusses new archaeological tech like remote sensing uncovering sites, but also respecting indigenous remains through repatriation and limited displays.

Ethical and Cultural Issues In Owning Human Remains

The conversation centers on tensions between scientific study and indigenous spiritual concerns regarding ancestral remains. Rinella describes Pueblos working to reclaim taken remains and disputes over museum displays. He notes the complexities of identifying direct descendants for ancient remains due to historical population movements.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Actionables

  • You can explore the history of your local area by visiting nearby historical sites or landmarks related to indigenous cultures or early settlers. This might include finding locations where trading posts once stood or areas known for their historical significance in the fur trade. By doing so, you'll gain a personal connection to the historical narratives discussed, such as the impact of the fur trade on North American expansion.
  • Start a small-scale, ethical wildlife observation hobby to appreciate the balance between nature and human activity. Choose a local ecosystem to observe, perhaps one that includes beavers or other wildlife mentioned in the context of historical trapping. Keeping a journal of your observations can help you understand the importance of conservation and the consequences of overexploitation.
  • Engage with local indigenous communities by attending public cultural events, workshops, or talks to learn about their history and perspectives, especially regarding archaeological findings and repatriation efforts. This direct engagement can offer a deeper understanding of the complex relationship between scientific study and indigenous spiritual concerns, fostering respect and awareness of these issues in your own community.

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#2258 - Steven Rinella

Fur Trade and Early North American Industries: History and Impact

Steven Rinella provides an in-depth exploration of the fur trade's powerful influence on the economic and exploratory expansion in North America, highlighting the conflicting and competitive nature of the era, as well as the eventual depletion of beaver populations.

Beaver Pelt Trade Spurred Early North American Economic Activity and Exploration

Valuable Beaver Pelts Fuel Lucrative Fur Trade in Europe

Rinella discusses the intense competition and conflict during the fur trade era, which saw beaver pelts emerge as North America's valuable commodity, akin to mineral wealth in other regions. The beaver pelts were extremely lucrative in Europe, driving economic activity.

Explorers and Trappers, "Mountain Men", Hunted Beavers For Trade

Explorers like LaSalle built ships, notably the Griffin, filled with precious beaver pelts for European trade. However, piracy, intimidation of Native tribes, and the French-English competition for control were prevalent during this time. Beaver pelts were sought-after for creating wool felt, leading to the mountain man era, marked by figures like Jim Bridger and Jed Smith. Lewis and Clark's 1804 expedition discovered a significant beaver population in the Rockies, setting off the "mountain men" period, with American trappers living in the wilderness for years. John Jacob Astor became America's first homegrown millionaire due to his involvement in the fur trade, which helped launch expeditions during this era.

Beaver Deplet ...

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Fur Trade and Early North American Industries: History and Impact

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Counterarguments

  • The economic activity driven by beaver pelts in Europe was not solely beneficial; it also led to the exploitation of indigenous populations and their resources.
  • The era was not only marked by competition and conflict but also by significant cultural exchanges and alliances between European traders and Native American tribes.
  • The "mountain men" era romanticizes a period that was also characterized by harsh living conditions, environmental degradation, and often violent encounters with indigenous peoples.
  • While John Jacob Astor did become very wealthy, it's important to acknowledge that his wealth was built on a system that often exploited both human and natural resources.
  • The depletion of beaver populations is a significant environmental concern, but it also led to changes in ecosystems that benefited other species and altered landscapes in ways that were not entirely negative.
  • The collapse of the beav ...

Actionables

  • Explore sustainable fashion by researching and purchasing clothing made from alternative, eco-friendly materials. The history of the fur trade shows the impact of consumer demand on wildlife populations. By choosing brands that prioritize sustainability, you contribute to reducing the exploitation of natural resources. Look for items made from organic cotton, bamboo, hemp, or recycled materials, and check for certifications like Fair Trade or Global Organic Textile Standard (GOTS).
  • Start a small-scale, ethical business venture by upcycling vintage or second-hand clothing. The collapse of the beaver pelt market underscores the importance of adaptability in commerce. You can create a niche market by repurposing old garments into fashionable pieces, thus promoting a circular economy and reducing waste. Use online platforms like Etsy or local craft fairs to sell your creations.
  • Educate others about ...

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#2258 - Steven Rinella

Peopling of the Americas

Discussions by Rinella and others bring to light evolving theories about the early settlement of the Americas, challenging long-held beliefs and presenting new puzzles about the past.

Discoveries Challenge "Clovis First" Model of Peopling Americas

Recent archaeological findings have put the once-dominant "Clovis First" hypothesis into question, suggesting a much earlier and more complex migration story.

Older Sites Suggest Earlier Human Arrival in Americas via Coastal Routes

Rinella discusses the "ice-free corridor" hypothesis, which is now seen as untenable in light of older sites like Monteverde in Chile, which predate the Clovis presence and suggest an earlier arrival to the Americas. These ancient settlers likely traveled not only via the Bering land bridge but also along coastal routes in what is now known as the Kelp Highway theory. This theory proposes that early Americans were seafaring people who navigated down the Pacific coast. These maritime migrants took advantage of rich marine resources provided by kelp beds, quickly moving southwards and populating the Americas.

Anzick one Evidence Shows Clovis Were Specialized Mammoth Hunters, Contradicting Scavenger Theories

Rinella touches on the controversy over whether the Clovis people were specialized mammoth hunters or scavengers. The discovery of a Clovis child known as Anzick One, who was buried with weapons and ochre in Montana, and stable isotope analysis of the child's diet suggest that mammoth was a part of their diet, supporting the theory that Clovis people hunted mammoths actively rather than scavenging. Rinella is skeptical of the scavenger theory based on the improbability of encountering sufficient fresh carcasses and suggests that megafauna like mammoths may have been easier to hunt due to their lack of evolutionary adaptations against human hunters.

Multiple Migration Waves From Siberia Shown by Genetic, Linguistic, and Archaeological Data

These coastal peoples who migrated along rivers and salmon runs eventually became mammoth and grassland hunters. There is evidence to suggest descendants of these early seafarers may include groups like the Tlingit or Haida along the Alaskan coast.

Mysteries and Uncertainties of Early Human Settlement in the Americas

Even as new evidence fills in gaps, it also opens up fresh que ...

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Peopling of the Americas

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • The "Clovis First" hypothesis, while challenged, was once supported by a significant amount of archaeological evidence, and some researchers may argue that more data is needed to completely overturn this model.
  • The dating of older sites like Monteverde is complex and interpretations can vary; some scholars may question the accuracy of the dating methods or the interpretation of the evidence.
  • The use of coastal routes and the Bering land bridge is a theory that may not account for all evidence; alternative migration theories, such as those involving trans-oceanic travel, have been proposed.
  • The Kelp Highway theory, while compelling, is based on circumstantial evidence and requires more direct archaeological data to confirm the extent of maritime migration.
  • The interpretation of the Anzick One site and the diet of the Clovis people can be debated, as the evidence does not conclusively prove whether Clovis people were specialized hunters or scavengers.
  • The idea of multiple migration waves from Siberia is supported by genetic, linguistic, and archaeological data, but the timing, number, and nature of these waves remain subjects of ongoing research and debate.
  • The connection between early seafarers and modern groups like the Tlingit or ...

Actionables

  • You can explore your own genetic ancestry to connect with the migration stories of early humans by using a direct-to-consumer DNA testing service. By analyzing your genetic markers, you might discover ancestral links to populations that were part of ancient migration patterns, similar to those discussed in the context of early Americans. This personal connection can make the history feel more relevant and alive to you.
  • Create a visual timeline of human migration to the Americas using free online timeline tools. Start with the oldest known sites like Monteverde and add significant archaeological discoveries as they are reported in the news or scientific journals. This will help you visualize the sequence of human settlement and understand the evolving nature of our knowledge about the past.
  • Engage with loca ...

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#2258 - Steven Rinella

Challenges and Mysteries of Survival and Discoveries

Steven Rinella speaks to the perils faced by explorers and groups throughout history, while Joe Rogan and Rinella also touch upon the advancements in archaeological methods and the ethical considerations involved in researching and displaying the past.

Challenges Of Surviving and Exploring the Arctic

Accounts of "John the Baptist" Explorer and Donner Party Reveal Starvation and Privation In Wilderness

Rinella describes the dangers of glacier hiking, including a story of a student who went missing after stepping into a crevasse and the melting risks associated with using a screw for anchoring. He reveals the intriguing tale of a man self-identifying as "John the Baptist," who arrived on a homemade log raft in Alaska in 1978. This man, who eventually died from starvation after ignoring advice and stealing supplies from others, became a burden to those living in the wild, taking up their resources.

Moreover, Rinella talks about a member of the Donner Party consuming hides and bone, along with hair follicles that formed obstructions, as they faced starvation. He notes that in extreme conditions, mooches like "John the Baptist," who looted a reloading station, could threaten others' survival due to resource scarcity.

The discussion also covers the Donner Party, where out of 90 stranded in the Sierra Nevada during the winter of 1846 to 1847, half were children, and the presence of children correlated with a higher chance of survival for the parents. Rinella and Rogan ponder the psychological aspects of survival, such as parents potentially feeding their children human flesh.

Rogan and Rinella further discuss survival situations extending to a failed Arctic expedition where the crews of the boats Terror and Another Boat resorted to cannibalism after ice entrapment. An example is given where a man killed two Native American guides to consume them without repercussions, highlighting the lengths to which people might go for survival.

Insights Into Prehistoric Hunter-Gatherer Technologies From Experimental Archaeology

Rinella talks about his involvement in an experimental archaeology study from Kent State University, where they butchered a bison with stone tools to understand their historical usage. This method aimed to create comparison data sets to interpret cut marks found on prehistoric bones and provided insights into the functions of Clovis points.

Rinella describes using stone tools to extract a bison tongue during the study, which did not leave the expected cut marks, altering the understanding of prehistoric tool usage. They highlight the importance of experimental archaeology in generating new hypotheses about the behavior of prehistoric peoples.

Technological Advances Transform Archaeological Research

Advanced Remote Sens ...

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Challenges and Mysteries of Survival and Discoveries

Additional Materials

Actionables

  • You can enhance your outdoor safety knowledge by taking a wilderness survival course, which will teach you how to navigate and respond to hazards like those found in glacier hiking. By learning these skills, you'll be better equipped to handle unexpected situations in nature and understand the importance of preparation and risk assessment.
  • Explore the ethical dimensions of archaeology by volunteering at a local museum or cultural heritage site. This hands-on experience will give you insight into the care and sensitivity required when dealing with artifacts and remains, especially those of indigenous peoples, and the importance of respecting cultural practices and legal frameworks.
  • Engage wi ...

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#2258 - Steven Rinella

Ethical and Cultural Issues In Owning Human Remains

The conversation surrounding the ownership and treatment of ancestral remains highlights the tension between scientific research and the cultural and spiritual concerns of indigenous peoples regarding their heritage.

Indigenous Groups Control Study, Repatriation of Ancestral Remains

The rights and practices of indigenous groups concerning their ancestral remains are at the center of ethical debates in archaeology and museum studies.

Pueblos Reclaim Ancestral Remains Taken Without Permission

Rinella talks about meeting a Puebloan focused on the repatriation efforts for his community, working tirelessly to get back the remains of his ancestors that were taken without permission and are now held by museums. The Pueblo people have a long history in specific regions, and outsiders have historically excavated their ancestral remains for display, often leading to ongoing legal and ethical disputes.

Ownership and Treatment Disputes of Ancient Remains Pit Science Against Indigenous Cultural and Spiritual Concerns

Rinella highlights a particular museum exhibit in Chicago that was concealed due to a repatriation issue, showing the active custody battles over these displays. The conversation explores the complexities of ensuring sensitive handling of human remains and the need to balance scientific interest with the respect for indigenous cultural and spiritual values.

Dating Ancient Remains Complicated by Population Movements and Intermixing

The challenge of accurately ascribing ancient remains to modern indigenous groups is exacerbated by historical population movements and genetic intermixing.

Ancestry Claims to Prehistoric Remains Unclear

As discussed by Rinella and Rogan, the question of who contemporary peoples are concerning ancient inhabitants introduces complexity into the repatriation of bones that are thousands of years old. With population m ...

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Ethical and Cultural Issues In Owning Human Remains

Additional Materials

Actionables

  • You can deepen your understanding of indigenous rights by reading up on the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. This document outlines the rights of indigenous peoples globally, including issues related to ancestral remains. By familiarizing yourself with these rights, you'll gain a better appreciation of the complexities involved in repatriation and how they apply to current events and museum practices.
  • Start a personal project to map out the history of indigenous groups in your area using public records and local history resources. This can help you appreciate the depth of historical movements and the intermixing of populations, providing a more informed perspective when considering the challenges of ascribing ancient remains to modern groups.
  • Engage with local mu ...

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