Podcasts > The Joe Rogan Experience > #2240 - Roger Avary & Quentin Tarantino

#2240 - Roger Avary & Quentin Tarantino

By Joe Rogan

Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary share their passion for cinema in this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience. They reflect on their humble beginnings at a video store, where immersing themselves in film culture ignited their filmmaking ambitions. The conversation delves into their appreciation for cohesive narratives in cinema compared to episodic content, their reverence for influential filmmakers like Stanley Kubrick and Roman Polanski, and their fondness for niche genres like Mexican exploitation films.

Tarantino and Avary also discuss the collaborative nature of filmmaking, addressing the challenges of maintaining creative vision amid industry pressures. This episode offers an insightful glimpse into the minds of two acclaimed filmmakers and their perspectives on the art of storytelling through film.

#2240 - Roger Avary & Quentin Tarantino

This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the Dec 10, 2024 episode of the The Joe Rogan Experience

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#2240 - Roger Avary & Quentin Tarantino

1-Page Summary

The influence of the video store industry on filmmaking careers

Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary reminisce on their time at Video Archives, where immersing themselves in film culture and discussions with customers nurtured their passion for cinema. Tarantino considers these interactions akin to being a film critic. The video store fostered a creative community, fueling their filmmaking ambitions and providing connections that helped them break into the industry.

Comparing and contrasting films vs. television/streaming content

Tarantino and Avary argue that films offer more cohesive narratives and lasting emotional impact compared to episodic TV/streaming shows. Tarantino notes films require greater intentional craftsmanship to achieve a singular impression, unlike serialized content that can feel like "unending soap operas." He believes iconic films leave viewers with memorable emotional climaxes, while TV shows are often forgotten.

Appreciation for specific film genres and styles

The speakers exhibit a passion for exploring niche genres like Mexican horror/exploitation films, praising their earnest artistry within budgetary constraints. They champion reappraising "so-bad-it's-good" films like Showgirls, finding new appreciation. Additionally, they admire the clever practical effects in low-budget genre films pre-CGI.

Notable filmmakers and their impact on the speakers

Avary and Tarantino deeply revere influential filmmakers like Stanley Kubrick, John Boorman, and Roman Polanski, considering them "cinematic parents" who shaped their sensibilities. Avary meticulously studied Kubrick's techniques. Both speakers appreciate how these directors used genre constraints to create visually compelling, thematically resonant works.

The collaborative filmmaking process and personal experiences

The speakers discuss the challenge of maintaining creative vision amid industry pressures. Avary shares his experience with Beowulf, initially envisioning a modest project that transformed under director Robert Zemeckis. Despite mixed feelings, Avary valued the collaboration. Tarantino highlights the importance of open dialogue and networking for successful filmmaking partnerships.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Video Archives was a video rental store in Manhattan Beach, California, where Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary worked. It was a hub for film enthusiasts, providing a space for them to immerse themselves in cinema and engage in discussions with customers. The store played a crucial role in nurturing Tarantino and Avary's passion for filmmaking, fostering a creative community that helped them establish connections in the industry. This environment influenced their artistic development and provided them with valuable insights and inspiration for their future careers in filmmaking.
  • Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary credit their time at Video Archives for nurturing their passion for cinema through interactions with customers and immersion in film culture. They view the video store as a creative hub that fueled their filmmaking ambitions and provided valuable industry connections. Tarantino likens the experience to being a film critic, emphasizing the impact of these interactions on their careers and artistic development. The video store environment played a significant role in shaping their perspectives on filmmaking and fostering a sense of community that supported their entry into the industry.
  • In the comparison between films and television/streaming content, films are seen to offer more concentrated narratives and lasting emotional impact due to their singular storytelling format. Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary suggest that films, with their focused storytelling and intentional craftsmanship, can create stronger emotional connections with viewers compared to episodic TV shows or streaming series. They argue that films often leave a more memorable and impactful impression on audiences, emphasizing the power of a well-crafted standalone story over the episodic nature of television or streaming content.
  • "Cinematic parents" is a term used to describe influential filmmakers who significantly impact and shape the artistic sensibilities and creative approaches of emerging filmmakers. In the context of Tarantino and Avary, they view directors like Stanley Kubrick, John Boorman, and Roman Polanski as their "cinematic parents" because these filmmakers have inspired and guided them in their own filmmaking journeys. This term signifies a deep respect and admiration for the artistic legacy and impact of these influential directors on the work and perspectives of Tarantino and Avary. The concept highlights the idea of mentorship and artistic lineage in the film industry, where established filmmakers serve as guiding figures for emerging talents.
  • The collaborative filmmaking process involves balancing creative vision with industry demands, often leading to challenges in maintaining artistic integrity. Directors like Robert Zemeckis may influence a project's direction, requiring flexibility from all involved. Open communication and networking are crucial for successful partnerships in the film industry. Personal experiences, like those shared by Avary and Tarantino, shed light on the complexities and rewards of collaboration.

Counterarguments

  • While Tarantino and Avary credit the video store for their success, it's important to acknowledge that many filmmakers have found success through other means, such as formal education, online platforms, or direct industry work.
  • The argument that films offer more cohesive narratives than TV shows can be contested, as many TV series are critically acclaimed for their complex storytelling and character development that evolve over multiple episodes or seasons.
  • The claim that films leave a lasting emotional impact while TV shows are often forgotten is subjective and can vary greatly among audiences; some TV shows have had profound cultural impacts and have been remembered and celebrated for decades.
  • Appreciation for niche genres and "so-bad-it's-good" films is a matter of personal taste, and not all viewers or critics may find value in such works.
  • The admiration for practical effects in low-budget films pre-CGI might overlook the fact that CGI has allowed filmmakers to push the boundaries of storytelling and create visuals that were previously impossible.
  • While Avary and Tarantino revere certain filmmakers, other influential directors have also shaped the industry in significant ways, and their contributions should not be overlooked.
  • The idea that directors like Kubrick, Boorman, and Polanski used genre constraints to create compelling works could be seen as a limited view, as many directors thrive without such constraints or by blending genres.
  • The collaborative filmmaking process can indeed be challenging, but some filmmakers might argue that industry pressures can also lead to creative breakthroughs and improvements to a project.
  • Avary's experience with Beowulf might not reflect the experiences of other screenwriters or filmmakers, who may have had more positive or different outcomes when their projects evolved under different directors.
  • Tarantino's emphasis on the importance of open dialogue and networking might not account for the fact that some successful filmmakers have been known to work in more isolated or independent ways, without relying heavily on industry connections.

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#2240 - Roger Avary & Quentin Tarantino

The influence of the video store industry on filmmaking careers

Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary reminisce on their times at Video Archives and explore how their work in a video store influenced their paths into the film industry.

The speakers' personal experiences working at a video store and how it impacted their path to becoming filmmakers

Working at the video store, Video Archives, allowed the speakers to immerse themselves in film culture and develop a deep appreciation for cinema

Discussing their experiences with the Video Archives Podcast, Tarantino and Avary delve into their time at the video store named Video Archives. It was there that they could engage in extensive conversations about movies with regular customers, which became a significant part of their film education. This constant dialogue about films allowed Tarantino to consider himself as a kind of film critic, offering tailored movie recommendations to customers and nurturing his passion for cinema.

The video store provided a creative outlet and community that inspired the speakers to pursue their filmmaking ambitions

Further reflecting on their time at Video Archives, Tarantino relished being surrounded by movies, and Avary described watching movies with Tarantino as a transformative experience—akin to viewing the films through Tarantino's eyes. They note the sense of community fostered within the video store environment, which nurtured their passion for film and fueled their ambitions to break into the film industry. Tarantino’s sense of neighborhood fame as "the video guy" also provided him with a precursor to the wider fame he would later achieve.

The video store experience gave the speakers insider knowledge and connections that helped them break into the industry

The speakers discussed how the competitive strategies employed at Video Archives, due to competition with Blockbuster, developed their creative thinking and problem-solving skills. This environment honed their persuasive skills, as they often had to convince customers to consider alternative movie titles, an aspect that they la ...

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The influence of the video store industry on filmmaking careers

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • While working at a video store may have provided a deep appreciation for cinema, it is not the only path to developing such an appreciation or to becoming a filmmaker; formal education and other types of film industry experience can also be instrumental.
  • The sense of community and inspiration found in a video store is valuable, but it could be argued that it is not unique to that setting; film clubs, online forums, and film schools also offer similar creative outlets and communities.
  • Insider knowledge and connections can be advantageous, but they are not a guarantee of success in the film industry; ...

Actionables

  • Start a film appreciation journal to deepen your understanding of cinema by writing about the movies you watch, noting elements like directing style, cinematography, and storytelling techniques. This practice will help you develop a critical eye and a personal connection to films, similar to how working at a video store might immerse someone in film culture.
  • Create a virtual movie club with friends or online communities to discuss and share insights on films, which can serve as a creative outlet and help build a network of fellow film enthusiasts. This can mimic the community aspect of a video store and provide a platform for exchanging ideas that could inspire your own creative project ...

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#2240 - Roger Avary & Quentin Tarantino

Comparing and contrasting films vs. television/streaming content

Quentin Tarantino and Avary provide a discourse on how films and television or streaming series differ in narrative cohesiveness, emotional impact, and the art of storytelling.

The speakers' perspectives on the differences in storytelling and lasting impact between films and ongoing television/streaming shows

Tarantino and Avary reflect on their experiences with both mediums and offer a critique of the storytelling and lasting impact of each.

Films are often more cohesive and impactful as a complete narrative, while television/streaming shows can feel more episodic and disconnected over time

Avary discusses the repetitive cycle of shock-driven violence in shows like "Game of Thrones," which he criticizes for lacking meaningful storytelling. Tarantino contrasts this with films, which often deliver a more cohesive narrative. Quentin Tarantino recalls not remembering the antagonists or the plot details of television shows like "Yellowstone" or "1883" over time, despite their initial appeal. In comparison, he notes that a well-crafted Western film such as "Red River" leaves a memorable impression that can last a lifetime.

The speakers argue that films require more intentional and thoughtful craftsmanship compared to the serialized nature of many television/streaming programs

Tarantino suggests that even the best television shows, which might utilize cinematic language, ultimately lack the intentional narrative structure that films possess. He believes that films are crafted to achieve a singular and lasting impact, as opposed to serialized TV shows which can feel like an unending soap opera.

The speakers believe films have a greater ability to leave a lasting emotional and intellectual impression on the viewer compared to the more disposable nature of much television/streaming content

Tarantino expresses dissatisfaction with television stories that result in forgettable moments, which he compares to "sand on the beach." He laments that these moments do not endure in the way that film moments do. Furthermore, he emphasizes the importance of an impactful story at the end of a season in serialized content; without it ...

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Comparing and contrasting films vs. television/streaming content

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Television/streaming shows have the advantage of long-form storytelling, allowing for deeper character development and more complex plotlines that can evolve over time.
  • Some television/streaming series maintain a high level of narrative cohesiveness across episodes and seasons, rivaling or even surpassing films in storytelling quality.
  • The serialized nature of television/streaming content can create a more immersive experience, with viewers investing more time and emotional energy into the characters and story.
  • The impact of television/streaming shows can be sustained over longer periods, with viewers forming lasting attachments to characters and story arcs.
  • Television/streaming content has produced memorable moments and episodes that have become culturally significant and have had a lasting impact on audiences.
  • The craftsmanship in television/streaming can be as intentional and thoughtful as in films, with many series employing cinematic techniques and high production values.
  • The episodic structure of television/streaming shows can allow for a variety of storytelling approaches within the same series, including episodes that function as standalone narratives.
  • Some television/streaming series have achieved critical acclaim and have been considered groundbreaking ...

Actionables

  • You can deepen your appreciation for film by hosting a monthly movie night where you screen films known for their emotional impact and follow up with a discussion group. This encourages you to engage with the film's narrative on a deeper level and understand the elements that contribute to its lasting impression. For example, after watching a film, lead a conversation about the emotional climaxes, character development, and storytelling techniques that made the film memorable.
  • Start a personal film journal to document your emotional and intellectual responses immediately after watching a movie. This practice helps you to reflect on the film's impact and the craftsmanship involved. You might note down specific scenes that moved you, the pacing of the story, and how the climax was built up, which can enhance your ability to remember and appreciate the film's narrative.
  • Create a comparison chart after you watch a film a ...

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#2240 - Roger Avary & Quentin Tarantino

Appreciation for specific film genres and styles

In a spirited discussion, Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary delve into their passion for exploring and championing lesser-known or overlooked film genres and styles, revealing an admiration for the artistry and creativity found in such works.

The speakers' passion for exploring and championing lesser-known or overlooked film genres and styles

Tarantino and Avary exhibit a deep-seated desire to delve into various film genres, particularly niche and exploitation films. They highlight this intention in the structure of their show, where they discuss a main movie, a related but probably lesser-known film, and a "wild exploitation thing" in each episode. They emphasize their eagerness to discuss films beyond the mainstream, steering clear of widely recognized titles and instead diving into hidden gems associated with VHS culture.

The speakers have a particular fondness for Mexican horror/exploitation films, appreciating the artistry and creativity within their limitations

Tarantino specifically talks about the greatness of Mexican horror movies, such as "Demon," praising the earnestness and serious treatment of their "tacky horror" content. He refers to the genre as "mexploitation," encompassing Mexican exploitation movies. Avary adds by describing these films as "crazy," likening the experience to being inside a Mexican director's head.

The speakers highlight the value in re-evaluating and rediscovering "so-bad-it's-good" films like Showgirls, finding new ways to appreciate their merits

Tarantino discusses being a champion of movies that have been dismissed as fiascos, like "Showgirls," signaling an appreciation for films that are so bad they're good. Avary points out that movies such as "Ishtar" and "Waterworld," which were originally labeled as failures, can develop a newfound appreciation over time. Rogan expresses his love for "Showgirls," while Tarantino acknowledges interesting aspects despite not typically enjoying so-bad-it's-good films. Avary highlights the unique nature of "Showgirls" with its grand $60 million budget and Verhoeven's free reign as a director. This perspective allows ...

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Appreciation for specific film genres and styles

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • "Mexploitation" is a term used to describe Mexican exploitation films that often feature elements of horror, action, or other sensational themes. These films typically emphasize low-budget production values and cater to niche audiences. The term combines "Mexican" with "exploitation" to highlight the specific style and content of these movies within the exploitation genre. Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avary appreciate the unique qualities and creativity found in these lesser-known Mexican horror/exploitation films.
  • "Demon" is a Mexican horror film that Quentin Tarantino praises for its earnest treatment of horror content. "Showgirls" is a film initially criticized but later appreciated for its unique qualities. "Ishtar" and "Waterworld" are movies that were considered failures upon release but have gained a new perspective over time. These films are examples discussed by Tarantino and Avary to illustrate their appreciation for overlooked o ...

Counterarguments

  • While Tarantino and Avary's focus on lesser-known genres is commendable, it could be argued that this niche focus may not contribute significantly to the broader film industry or to the tastes of the general audience.
  • The celebration of niche and exploitation films might overshadow the value and innovation present in mainstream cinema, which often has a wider cultural impact.
  • The appreciation for "so-bad-it's-good" films can sometimes be seen as ironic enjoyment, which may not give due credit to the genuine efforts of the filmmakers involved.
  • Re-evaluating films initially labeled as failures is subjective and may not align with the general consensus or critical standards, potentially leading to a skewed perspective on film quality.
  • The emphasis on practical effects and older filmmaking techniques might inadvertently dismiss the advance ...

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#2240 - Roger Avary & Quentin Tarantino

Notable filmmakers and their impact on the speakers

Roger Avary and Quentin Tarantino share a profound reverence for the work of influential filmmakers such as Stanley Kubrick, John Boorman, and Roman Polanski, discussing how these directors have significantly influenced their own approaches to cinema.

The speakers' reverence for the work of influential filmmakers like Stanley Kubrick, John Boorman, and Roman Polanski

Roger Avary speaks highly of Stanley Kubrick, citing him as his favorite filmmaker. Avary points out that all of Kubrick's films can be categorized within specific genres, such as his science fiction movie, horror movie, or his costume dramas like "Barry Lyndon." Kubrick is seen as a flexible director navigating through various genres while leaving his distinctive mark on each.

Quentin Tarantino shares Avary's admiration for Kubrick, noting that even "Barry Lyndon," fits comfortably within the genre category of costume drama, and linking it to its origins as a popular serialized soap opera at the time.

The speakers have deeply studied the directorial styles and creative approaches of these filmmakers, seeing them as "cinematic parents" who have profoundly shaped their own filmmaking sensibilities

Avary considers Kubrick, along with John Boorman and Roman Polanski, as his "cinematic parents," suggesting they've significantly impacted his filmmaking style. He details his deep respect and sees himself as a composite of these influential directors. Avary specifically admires Kubrick for being a weird guy who thought three steps ahead of everyone else, even suggesting that some aspects of Kubrick's films might have been altered after his death, indicating a detailed knowledge of Kubrick's directorial choices.

Furthermore, Avary discusses the influence of Fritz Lang, especially his film "M," on Kubrick's work, showing a lineage of influence from one iconic filmmaker to another. He recommends "M" for learning how to use sound effectively in film, further expressing reverence for Lang's creative approach.

The speakers appreciate how these filmmakers used genre conventions and constraints to create visually striking and thematically resonant works of cinema

Tarantino likens the process of young filmmakers learning their craft to children learning from their parents, referring to these influential directors as "cinematic paren ...

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Notable filmmakers and their impact on the speakers

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • "Cinematic parents" is a term used to describe influential filmmakers who have significantly impacted and shaped the artistic sensibilities and creative approaches of other filmmakers. It signifies a deep respect and admiration for the work of these influential directors, viewing them as guiding figures in one's own artistic development within the realm of cinema. This concept highlights the profound influence and mentorship role that these revered filmmakers play in shaping the perspectives and styles of emerging filmmakers. The term emphasizes a lineage of influence and inspiration, where the artistic legacy of these "cinematic parents" is carried forward by those who have been profoundly influenced by their work.
  • Zero point perspective is a technique in filmmaking where the camera is positioned directly facing a subject, creating a flat, two-dimensional effect. Reverse tracking shots involve moving the camera backward while filming a scene, often used to reveal new information or create a sense of distance or separation. These techniques are part of the visual language of cinema, influencing how scenes are framed and how the audience perceives spatial relationships ...

Counterarguments

  • While Avary and Tarantino may see Kubrick, Boorman, and Polanski as "cinematic parents," other filmmakers might not share this view and may instead draw inspiration from a different set of directors or artistic movements.
  • The admiration for Kubrick's flexibility in genre might be countered by the argument that some other directors have shown equal or greater versatility without receiving the same level of recognition.
  • The notion that Kubrick's films fit neatly within genre categories could be debated, as some critics might argue that his work often transcends or subverts traditional genre boundaries.
  • The deep study of directorial styles and creative approaches by Avary and Tarantino is commendable, but it could be argued that an excessive focus on past influences might limit a filmmaker's own creativity or lead to derivative works.
  • The recommendation of Fritz Lang's "M" for learning sound in film is subjective, and other film scholars or practitioners might suggest alternative films or directors as being equally or more influential in this aspect.
  • The appreciation for using genre conventions to create visually and thematically resonant works could be seen as one approach among many, and some might argue for the ...

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#2240 - Roger Avary & Quentin Tarantino

The collaborative filmmaking process and personal experiences

In an insightful discussion, speakers such as Quentin Tarantino, Joe Rogan, and Roger Avary share their experiences and the intrinsic challenges and rewards of the filmmaking process, underscoring the value of collaboration.

The speakers' reflections on the challenges and rewards of the filmmaking process, both individually and in collaboration with others

The speakers delve into the delicate balance of maintaining one's creative vision against industry pressures. They share personal stories from their filmmaking journeys, with Avary revealing an instance where he chose a project for financial reasons and consequently questioned his identity as a filmmaker.

The speakers discuss the importance of maintaining creative vision and passion in the face of industry pressures and financial considerations

Roger Avary reveals an intimate account of the transformation of his project 'Beowulf.' Conceived with modest intent for a raw aesthetic in Iceland, like early Terry Gilliam films, it was starkly changed by Robert Zemeckis into a high-budget performance capture film. Though different from Avary's vision, working with Zemeckis was still an enjoyable experience, and Zemeckis's creative genius impressed Avary.

The speakers share personal anecdotes about specific filmmaking experiences, including the production of Beowulf, that shaped their perspectives on the art form

With advanced technology at hand, Quentin Tarantino and Joe Rogan ponder the possibilities of film manipulation that are no longer as financially prohibitive as in the past. Avary contemplates utilizing such advancements to revisit and enhance 'Beowulf.'

The journey of 'Beowulf' was tumultuous for Avary, who withstood industry pressure as agents bombarded him to sell to Steve Bing for Zemeckis. Despite initially refusing and desiring to direct, Avary eventually succumbed, persuaded by the urgency to make the film. Selling the script was a reluctant but financially rewarding decision, one that Avary describes as both a sellout and a fabulous opportunity.

The speakers emphasize the value of mutual respect, open dialogue ...

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The collaborative filmmaking process and personal experiences

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Roger Avary's project 'Beowulf' underwent significant changes from its original conception due to the influence of Robert Zemeckis, transforming it into a high-budget performance capture film. Avary faced industry pressure to sell the project, ultimately leading to a reluctant but financially rewarding decision. The collaboration between Avary and Zemeckis on 'Beowulf' highlights the complexities and compromises often involved in filmmaking processes. Avary's experiences with 'Beowulf' underscore the challenges and rewards of balancing creative vision with industry demands.
  • Roger Avary, a filmmaker and screenwriter, faced legal troubles related to a fatal car accident in 2008. He was involved in a crash that resulted in the death of a passenger in his car. Avary pleaded guilty to charges of vehicular manslaughter and DUI causing injury, leading to his incarceration. This incident had a significant impact on his life and career, influencing his perspectives and experiences in the film industry.
  • Roger Avary's project 'Beowulf' underwent a significant transfor ...

Counterarguments

  • Maintaining creative vision against industry pressures is crucial, but it can also be argued that flexibility and adaptability are equally important for a filmmaker to navigate the complexities of the industry and to bring a project to fruition.
  • While personal stories are valuable, they may not always provide a comprehensive understanding of the filmmaking process, which can vary greatly depending on the context and the individuals involved.
  • Roger Avary's experience with 'Beowulf' and working with Robert Zemeckis highlights the benefits of collaboration, but it also raises questions about authorship and the extent to which a creative vision should be compromised for the sake of a project.
  • The impact of advanced technology on filmmaking possibilities is significant, but reliance on technology should not overshadow the importance of storytelling and character development in films.
  • The value of mutual respect, open dialogue, and constructive disagreement in filmmaking collaborations is emphasized, yet there are instances where too much compromise can dilute a film's vision, and a strong directorial hand may be necessary.
  • Roger Avary's reflections on personal growth after facing tragic events are poignant, but personal growth is a complex and individual process that ma ...

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