#2228 - Josh Dubin

The need for supporting those who leave prison after long sentences or who have been exonerated is critical, yet the system is fraught with challenges in providing that care.

Importance of providing mental health support and resources for exonerees and those leaving long prison sentences

Exonerees and long-term inmates often face immense psychological and social challenges upon release. They need extensive mental health services and support for reintegration. Josh Dubin underscores the necessity of mental health counseling for these individuals due to the multitude of issues they confront when they are freed, such as assimilating back into society, finding employment, and feeling safe.

Difficulties in ensuring proper care and support is provided

Systemic issues prevent access to services

Dubin points out systemic problems like stigma, lack of funding, and coordination issues between different agencies which hinder exonerees and former inmates from receiving essential services. There is a pervasive stigma associated with mental health, particularly in the African-American community. Dubin advocates for society to choose rehabilitation over mere containment, suggesting that if one state or municipality investigates the beneficial approaches, like psychedelic therapy, it could catalyze broader systemic changes.

Advocacy struggles for adequate mental health treatment

Lawyers and advocates like Josh Dubin face an uphill battle ensuring proper mental health treatment for their clients. Despite the stigma in prison regarding mental health counseling and an aversion to being seen as vulnerable, Dubin emphasizes that exonerees should not feel ashamed to seek help. As someone responsible for his clients' well-being, Dubin shares his own struggles in getting them to engage with treatment, such as seeing a trauma therapist.

Dubin also calls attention to the US incarceration model, focused more on containment than rehabilitation, which reflects society's indifferent attitude towards the wellbeing of inmates. He calls for changes within the system and is working on an ...

Joe Rogan and Josh Dubin address the serious implications of wrongful convictions, emphasizing the tragedy of imprisoning innocent individuals based on falsehoods. The case of the "Ohio 4" serves as a stark illustration of how difficult it can be to reverse such injustices even in the presence of recanted testimony and new evidence.

The case of the "Ohio 4"

Four men, Al Cleveland, Lenworth Edwards, John Edwards, and Benson Davis, collectively known as the "Ohio 4," were convicted of a murder based on the false testimony of a witness who later recanted. Despite having alibis, their convictions were based almost entirely on this witness’s claim.

Four men convicted based on recanted testimony

After a cold case involving the deaths of Epps and Marsha Blakely, a $2,000 reward led informant William Avery Sr. to come forward, initially providing no new details. Later, his son, William Avery Jr., claimed to have witnessed the murder, implicating Al Cleveland in the crime.

During their trials, Avery Jr. demanded money to testify, was jailed upon refusal, and eventually recanted, stating he had fabricated the story. Despite this, a judge declared a mistrial and disbelieved Avery Jr.’s recantation. Later, Avery Jr. presented a new version of the events at the separate trials of the four men, leading to their convictions.

Attempts to overturn convictions hindered

Eventually, Avery Jr. sought to clear his conscience, fully recanting his testimony. However, the legal system proved unyielding; he was faced with potential prosecution, was denied immunity, and thereby prevented from testifying without risking jail. Consequently, two of the "Ohio 4" are out on bail, while the other two serve life sentences, their exoneration efforts stymied by a resistant system.

Josh Dubin criticizes the District Attorney of Lorain County, Ohio, who is involved in the case and recently indicted. Dubin is campaigning for the exoneration of the "Ohio 4," referencing public support and the testimony from law enforcement agents in post-conviction proceedings, conveying hope for an end to their "30-year long nightmare."

Challenges in getting prosecutors to reopen and overturn seemingly closed cases

Reluctance of prosecutors

Prosecutors often show reluctance to admit errors in prior convictions due to fears of public backlash and concern for their careers, as evidenced by the resistance faced by Dubin in the "Ohio 4" ...

Josh Dubin and Joe Rogan reflect on how media coverage, public opinion, and political pressures can significantly impact criminal justice outcomes, often leading to distorted realities and unjust circumstances in high-stakes cases.

Media coverage and public perceptions can distort the realities of criminal cases

High-profile cases are often sensationalized by the media, with inaccurate or misleading narratives that shape public opinion

Dubin emphasizes the importance of public engagement in influencing criminal cases, especially when political figures are unresponsive. He suggests using public interest, generated through the true crime angle, to encourage people to apply pressure on officials by writing letters and making calls. The strategy involves making the evidence publicly available and fostering social media advocacy, illustrated by efforts like the Twitter handle "Free The Ohio 4."

Joe Rogan echoes this sentiment, noting the potential impact of public engagement once information is accessible online. He suggests that an increased reaction from the public can sway the outcome. Dubin believes in taking the issue to the public and "banging the drum" to campaign for exoneration, particularly in cases where political pushback occurs against amendments and bills related to the case.

This can make it harder for advocates to get prosecutors and courts to objectively re-evaluate cases

The power of media narratives and the sway of public perception can make it increasingly challenging for advocates to motivate prosecutors and courts to re-evaluate cases objectively. While exact examples of media coverage and public perceptions are not provided in the transcript, it is implied that such factors play a significant role in shaping the justice process.

Political considerations can override concerns about fairness and justice

Prosecutors and judges may be influenced by political pressures and the desire to maintain conviction rates or avoid public backlash, rather than focusing on the merits of a case

Josh Dubin highlights the influence of political motivations on the justice system, citing personal animosity between individuals and political maneuvers that affect prosecutorial decisions. The instance of JD Tomlinson, indicted by a special prosecutor amidst a re-election campaign, suggests such political factors are at play.

Du ...

Josh Dubin and Joe Rogan uncover a myriad of issues—from misconduct to biases—plaguing the criminal justice system. Their revelations expose a troubling landscape filled with resistance to accountability and the disproportionate effects these problems have on marginalized communities.

Widespread problems of misconduct, false testimony, and suppression of exculpatory evidence

Dubin and Rogan discuss the deeply-entrenched problems within the criminal justice system, such as misconduct, false testimony, and the suppression of evidence that could exculpate the innocent. They indicate a system that inadequately investigates and addresses instances of prosecutorial misconduct, police coercion of witnesses, and other abuses of power.

For instance, Dubin brings up a situation where the prosecutor was sent to federal prison for bribing witnesses—an act they are accused of conducting in the case being discussed. The "Ohio 4" case, in which the prosecutors in Lorain County were previously informed by the FBI about an unreliable witness, exemplifies these systemic failures. Furthermore, the police's lack of thorough investigation, such as not using luminol to detect potential hidden blood evidence, signifies negligence or oversight.

Dubin also admonishes the judicial system for its criticism of eyewitness recantations when the original false testimony greatly influenced the conviction. He tells the story of William Avery Jr., who was coerced into lying by his drug-addicted father who threatened him for reward money. This witness later recanted, but his testimony was initially accepted at face value without a genuine inquiry into his credibility, demonstrating the system's resistence to acknowledging and rectifying false testimonies.

The criminal justice system often fails to adequately investigate and address instances of prosecutorial misconduct, police coercion of witnesses, and other abuses of power

Joe Rogan speaks to the creation of crimes within the system, suggesting a capacity for manipulation of situations to yield specific outcomes. Additionally, Dubin points out political pushback against reforms, such as enabling DNA testing for alternative suspects by defense attorneys, indicating systemic resistance to change and a lack of accountability.

Disproportionate impact on marginalized communities

Systemic biases disproportionately affect the most vulnerable, including communities of color and the economically disadvantaged. Rogan and Dubin broach the subject of understanding relative trauma and its impact on behavior, suggesting that the system often judges individuals without comprehending their circumstances fully.

Josh Dubin underlines the need to understand race in America, recommending Ta-Nehisi Coates' "Between the World and Me" to grasp the African American experience. The disc ...