Podcasts > Shawn Ryan Show > #220 Simone Ledeen - Fmr. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy

#220 Simone Ledeen - Fmr. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy

By Shawn Ryan Show

In this episode of the Shawn Ryan Show, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Simone Ledeen discusses her extensive career in U.S. national security and defense. Drawing from her experiences at the Treasury Department, Defense Intelligence Agency, and Department of Defense, she shares insights about the Swift program's role in counterterrorism and the DIA's organizational transformation.

The discussion covers U.S. military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, including challenges during Iraq's reconstruction and issues surrounding the 2021 Afghanistan withdrawal. Ledeen also addresses significant military operations targeting ISIS leader al-Baghdadi and Iranian General Soleimani, as well as her work strengthening defense relationships following the Abraham Accords between Israel and several Arab nations.

#220 Simone Ledeen - Fmr. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy

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#220 Simone Ledeen - Fmr. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy

1-Page Summary

Simone Ledeen's Career in National Security, Intelligence, Defense

Simone Ledeen's career spans crucial roles across multiple government sectors. She served as an advisor to the Ministry of Finance in post-invasion Iraq, was considered for an assistant secretary position at the Treasury focusing on counter-threat finance, and later became the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East, cementing her status as a key figure in U.S. national security.

Challenges, Mistakes, and Issues in Iraq and Afghanistan

Ledeen provides a candid critique of U.S. operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, highlighting significant challenges including widespread waste, fraud, and abuse during Iraq reconstruction. She expresses particular concern about the 2021 Afghanistan withdrawal, noting the abandonment of crucial partners and the strategic error of surrendering Bagram Air Base. Ledeen also describes her efforts to implement revenue-generating projects in Afghanistan, though these were often hampered by corruption and political disputes.

Counter-Threat Finance Efforts and the Swift Program

At the Treasury Department, Ledeen managed the Swift program, a classified counterterrorism tool used to monitor international financial transactions. She explains that despite public privacy concerns, the program operated under strict controls and oversight, focusing solely on counterterrorism efforts with multiple layers of approval required for all investigations.

Reorganization and Work of the Defense Intelligence Agency

As part of the DIA's leadership team, Ledeen helped spearhead a reorganization that integrated intelligence collectors and analysts, creating specialized units like Russia House and China House. While facing significant bureaucratic resistance, this restructuring was considered revolutionary and later influenced similar changes at the CIA.

The Baghdadi and Soleimani Operations

Ledeen played a role in briefing Congress about the operation that eliminated ISIS leader al-Baghdadi, praising the military's professionalism in its execution. She also supported the decision to strike Iranian General Soleimani, describing it as a bold but necessary response to Iranian aggression against American forces.

The Abraham Accords and Israel's Regional Integration

In her role as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East, Ledeen worked to strengthen military and defense relationships following the historic Abraham Accords, which established formal ties between Israel and several Arab nations. She notes that the Accords could reshape Middle Eastern geopolitics, potentially positioning Israel as a premier regional security partner, though recent events have complicated further expansion of the agreements.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The Swift program is a classified tool used by the Treasury Department to track international financial transactions for counterterrorism purposes. It operates under strict controls and oversight, focusing solely on identifying and disrupting financial flows linked to terrorist activities. Multiple layers of approval are required for any investigations conducted through the Swift program. The program plays a crucial role in monitoring and analyzing financial data to help prevent and combat terrorism financing.
  • The reorganization at the Defense Intelligence Agency involved integrating intelligence collectors and analysts into specialized units like Russia House and China House. These units were created to focus specifically on gathering and analyzing intelligence related to Russia and China, respectively. The restructuring aimed to enhance the DIA's capabilities in understanding and responding to the strategic activities of these countries. The establishment of such specialized units allowed for a more targeted and efficient approach to intelligence gathering and analysis in these critical areas.
  • The Abraham Accords are a series of agreements normalizing relations between Israel and Arab countries like the UAE, Bahrain, Sudan, and Morocco. These accords mark a significant shift in Middle Eastern diplomacy by fostering diplomatic, economic, and security cooperation between former adversaries. They aim to enhance regional stability, counter common threats, and promote economic prosperity through increased trade and investment. The Accords have the potential to reshape alliances in the region, potentially leading to a more integrated and cooperative Middle East.

Counterarguments

  • While Simone Ledeen held key roles, it's important to consider the broader context of those roles and the policies they supported, which may have had mixed outcomes.
  • Critiques of U.S. operations in Iraq and Afghanistan could be complemented by acknowledging the complexity of the situations and the efforts of those involved to navigate unpredictable circumstances.
  • The management of the Swift program, despite its oversight, raises questions about the balance between security and privacy, and whether the oversight was sufficient to protect individual rights.
  • The reorganization at the Defense Intelligence Agency, though innovative, might have had unintended consequences or may not have been universally welcomed within the intelligence community.
  • Briefing Congress on operations against Baghdadi and Soleimani could be seen as part of a larger debate on the use of military force and the potential for escalation in volatile regions.
  • The Abraham Accords, while a significant step, are part of a complex geopolitical landscape, and their long-term impact on regional stability and peace is still uncertain.

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#220 Simone Ledeen - Fmr. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy

Simone Ledeen's Career in National Security, Intelligence, Defense

Simone Ledeen has carved a distinguished career path across various government sectors including the Pentagon, Treasury, and global battlefields, establishing herself as an expert in national security, counterterrorism, and intelligence.

Ledeen's Distinguished Career in National Security and Defense

Simone Ledeen has devoted significant portions of her professional life to the service of national security and defense, facing challenges in volatile environments and playing a crucial role in shaping policy and strategy.

Civilian Advisor in Post-Invasion Iraq

During her tenure, Ledeen worked as an advisor in Baghdad for the Coalition Provisional Authority following the invasion of Iraq. She played a critical role by serving as an advisor to the Ministry of Finance, demonstrating her capacity to navigate complex and challenging post-conflict environments.

Transitioned To Counter-Threat Finance at Treasury

Leaning on her expertise in national security and defense, Ledeen was approached by General Flynn, for whom she had worked for about five years, to take an assistant secretary position at the Treasury focused on counter-threat finance. Her appointment underscored her deep knowledge and skill in combating financial activities that threaten national security, although the opportunity at the Treasury later fell through when Flynn departed.

She Moved To the Defense Intelligence Agency to Aid Its Reorgan ...

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Simone Ledeen's Career in National Security, Intelligence, Defense

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Clarifications

  • The Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) was a transitional government established in Iraq after the 2003 invasion by U.S.-led Coalition forces. It held executive, legislative, and judiciary authority over Iraq from April 2003 to June 2004. The CPA faced criticism for mismanagement of funds allocated for post-invasion reconstruction, with billions of dollars unaccounted for.
  • Counter-Threat Finance involves strategies to combat financial activities that pose a threat to national security, such as funding terrorism or illicit activities. It focuses on disrupting the financial networks that support these threats, aiming to undermine their operations and prevent future attacks. This approach is crucial in broader efforts to counter terrorism, insurgency, and other security challenges. By targeting the financial infrastructure of threat networks, Counter-Threat Finance aims to weaken their capabilities and hinder their ability to carry out harmful activities.
  • The Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East is a high-ranking official within the U.S. Department of Defense responsible for overse ...

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#220 Simone Ledeen - Fmr. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy

Challenges, Mistakes, and Issues in Iraq and Afghanistan

Simone Ledeen scrutinizes policy decisions, flawed assumptions, and the mismanagement of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, mourning the resulting loss of life and opportunities.

Ledeen Critiques Flawed Assumptions, Poor Foresight, and Mismanagement in Iraq and Afghanistan Wars

Ledeen highlights various challenges and mistakes that plagued the U.S. efforts in these countries.

Waste, Fraud, and Abuse in US-funded Iraq Reconstruction

Simone Ledeen remarks on immense challenges, such as the waste, fraud, and abuse that occurred during the Iraq reconstruction. She recalls how even in the early days, clear signs of mismanagement were evident, with basic necessities like trailers with bathrooms missing. Soldiers unlawfully dealing with vehicles showcased the level of oversight and illegal activities that transpired.

Afghanistan Withdrawal 2021 Disturbed Ledeen: Abandonment of Partners and Strategic Damage

The 2021 withdrawal from Afghanistan particularly disturbed Ledeen, highlighting the abandonment of effective partners like a border police commander left without military assets, leading to his assassination. Ledeen also points out the strategic mistake of giving up Bagram Air Base which was crucial for regional oversight. She expresses dismay at the mismanagement and chaos of the withdrawal, including personnel at the embassy being unprepared to evacuate, and critiques the decision-making that led to the withdrawal's execution. She laments the lost opportunities and abandonment of individuals who fought alongside U.S. forces.

Over the span of these conflicts, political misjudgments such as ignoring early signs of insurgency in Iraq had significant implications. Intelligence analysts were restricted from using the term "insurgency," reflecting the administrative denial and lack of foresight.

On a personal level, Ledeen opens up about her disillusionment with the mission's purpose after years of dedication, and how the negative war outcomes weighed heavily on her mental health.

Ledeen acknowledges the competency of Afghan fighters and is troubled by the message sent globally by the U.S. withdrawal, suggesting that it emboldened jihadists.

Challenges in Ensuring Afghanistan's Financial Self-sufficiency

Implementing projects to make the government of Afghanistan self-sufficient in revenue generation was an enormous task. Ledeen describes a pilot project aimed at managing corruption at borders to increase customs revenue, an effort that she witnessed to have tangible successes.

However, Ledeen also observed political disputes that hindered effective program management, like the unwarranted questioning of motives behind approved strategies. After a transition from military to embassy control, the removal of necessary assets led to declining security situations.

She recounts failures such as the delay in a US-funded road paving project, which led to a fatal IED incident. Further, unsavory dealings, such as the acceptance of illegal gifts by a USAID representative in Herat, exemplify the corruption challenges faced during her tenure there.

Reflections on Early War Years and Personal Expe ...

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Challenges, Mistakes, and Issues in Iraq and Afghanistan

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Actionables

  • You can enhance your critical thinking by journaling about major decisions you face, noting potential biases and assumptions. Reflect on past decisions to identify any flawed assumptions or misjudgments you may have made, and consider how you could have approached them differently. For example, if you decided to invest in a company based on a friend's advice, write down what assumptions led to that choice and how you can vet such decisions more thoroughly in the future.
  • Develop a habit of researching multiple perspectives before forming an opinion on a contentious issue. Start by choosing a current event or policy debate, then read various sources from different political or ideological spectrums to understand the complexity of the issue. This could involve comparing articles from conservative and liberal news outlets on a new piece of legislation to see how different assumptions shape the narrative.
  • Volunteer with ...

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#220 Simone Ledeen - Fmr. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy

Counter-Threat Finance Efforts and the Swift Program

Simone Ledeen elaborates on the intricate counter-threat finance efforts, including the pioneering Swift program, which she managed at the Treasury Department. These operations are paramount for disrupting the sophisticated financial networks of adversaries such as terrorist organizations.

Ledeen's Role in Treasury's Swift Counter-Threat Finance Program

Ledeen was instrumental in the Treasury Department's incisive work on counter-threat finance, focusing on intercepting the financial streams that were vital to the enemies. She shed light on how the Treasury, in collaboration with the Department of Defense (DOD), and various intelligence and law enforcement agencies, endeavored to dismantle financial networks that supported hostile activities.

Swift Program Let Us Monitor Transactions, Disrupt Terrorist Funds

The Swift program is a crucial tool in the fight against terrorism. It serves as an international mechanism that facilitates the electronic transfer of funds between banks and was a classified part of the Patriot Act, aimed at tracking transactions for counterterrorism purposes. When in charge of the program, Ledeen employed it to closely monitor transactions, identifying designated accounts and tracking their activity. She explained that, with valid targets, Swift transactions could be requested and scrutinized. The program proved successful in instances such as confirming that Norwegian child killer Anders Breivik funded his operations independently over a decade.

Ledeen Led Swift, a Sensitive Counterterrorism Tool, and Coordinated With International Partners

While there are no specific mentions in the provided content about Ledeen's coordination with international partners through the Swift program, it can be inferred from the context of her roles in counter-threat finance that such cooperation was likely. The Swift program's sensitivity and effectiveness necessitate meticulous coordination at international levels, especially considering Europe's stringent privacy laws that came into play when the program was exposed publicly.

Ledeen Argues Privacy Concerns From Swift Program's Public R ...

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Counter-Threat Finance Efforts and the Swift Program

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Counterarguments

  • The effectiveness of the Swift program in disrupting terrorist financing might be overstated, as terrorist organizations often adapt and find alternative ways to fund their operations.
  • The claim that privacy concerns are unfounded may not consider the potential for misuse or overreach, which can occur even with oversight mechanisms in place.
  • The assertion that the Swift program does not delve into personal lives assumes that all data handling and analysis strictly adhere to the intended purpose, which may not always be the case in practice.
  • The coordination with international partners could be more complex and fraught with challenges than presented, especially in light of differing legal frameworks and privacy standards.
  • The rigorous supervision by the Swift Company does not guarantee that errors or breaches will not occur, as no system is entirely foolpro ...

Actionables

  • You can enhance your personal data security by reviewing and tightening privacy settings on your financial accounts, ensuring you're not inadvertently sharing sensitive information.
  • By understanding the importance of financial privacy and security, as highlighted by the Swift program's measures, you can apply similar principles to your own life. For example, regularly update passwords, enable two-factor authentication, and limit the sharing of personal data on social media platforms that could be used to infer financial information.
  • You can volunteer with local community organizations that aim to educate the public about financial safety and the importance of oversight in financial transactions.
  • This action allows you to contribute to raising awareness about the importance of financial security and the role of oversight in protecting against misuse. You might help organize workshops or create informational materials that explain how individuals can protect their financial data and recognize fraudulent activities.
  • You can start a personal finance study group with friends or community members to col ...

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#220 Simone Ledeen - Fmr. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy

Reorganization and Work of the Defense Intelligence Agency

The Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) has undergone changes to enhance its intelligence collection and analysis, spearheaded by leaders like Simone Ledeen who have faced bureaucratic challenges in transforming the agency.

Ledeen, Part of Defense Intelligence Agency Leadership, Led a Reorganization to Enhance Intelligence Collection and Analysis

Simone Ledeen played a significant role in the Defense Intelligence Agency's reorganization, driven by the goal of integrating intelligence collectors and analysts to foster more responsive intelligence for decision-makers.

Integrating Collectors and Analysts For Decision-Maker-Responsive Intelligence

Ledeen discusses the pre-reorganization issue where collectors and analysts were often in different locations and not coordinating effectively. The reorganization led to the creation of specific entities like Russia House and China House within the DIA, where collectors and analysts could work together more closely on the same region. This aimed to ensure intelligence collectors gathered precise intelligence that analysts required to answer senior leadership's key questions, efficiently filling intelligence gaps.

Ledeen Faced Bureaucratic Challenges and Resistance to Change Within the Reform-Resistant Dia Culture

Simone Ledeen, as part of General Flynn's leadership team, faced a bureaucratic culture that was initially resistant to reform. These challenges also emerged when she was tasked with writing the counter-threat finance policy for the DOD, a process mired by debates with ...

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Reorganization and Work of the Defense Intelligence Agency

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Counterarguments

  • The integration of collectors and analysts, while beneficial in theory, may not always lead to improved outcomes due to potential conflicts in operational cultures and methodologies.
  • Creating entities like Russia House and China House could lead to siloing of information and expertise, potentially hindering cross-regional analysis and broader strategic insights.
  • The efficiency of intelligence collection is not solely dependent on organizational structure but also on the quality of training, resources, and inter-agency cooperation.
  • Bureaucratic resistance to change within the DIA could be indicative of deeper institutional issues that a simple reorganization might not address.
  • The reorganization's necessity and value are subjective and could be debated based on the actual outcomes and improvements in intelligence operations.
  • Characterizing the reorganization as revolutionary may overlook previous reform efforts withi ...

Actionables

  • You can enhance collaboration in your workplace by creating cross-functional teams focused on specific goals, similar to the "Russia House" and "China House" concept. For instance, if you work in marketing, form a team with members from sales, product development, and customer service to ensure a unified approach to launching a new product. This ensures that all perspectives are considered and that the team works towards a common objective with a clear understanding of each other's roles.
  • To overcome resistance to change in your organization, start a peer-advocacy group. Find colleagues who are open to new ideas and willing to support reforms, and meet regularly to discuss how to implement changes smoothly. This group can serve as a model for adaptability, showing others the benefits of change through small, successful initiatives. For example, if there's resistance to a new software system, the group could learn it first, then help others see its advantages through informal training sessions.
  • Improve your personal efficiency by adopting a "collector-analyst" mindset for information management. Act as a colle ...

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#220 Simone Ledeen - Fmr. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy

The Baghdadi and Soleimani Operations

Simone Ledeen played a vital role in the United States operations targeting key figures such as ISIS leader al-Baghdadi and Iranian General Soleimani.

Ledeen Involved After US Operations Killed ISIS Leader al-Baghdadi, Iranian General Soleimani

Ledeen was part of the Special Operations and Combating Terrorism team during the operations that resulted in the death of ISIS leader al-Baghdadi and Iranian General Soleimani.

Briefed Congress On Baghdadi Operation, an Impressive and Daring Special Forces Feat

Simone Ledeen's involvement in the Baghdadi operation primarily entailed briefing Congress post-operation. She extolled the competence and professionalism of the military members involved, specifically singling out a high-production-value video of the operation that was shown to select individuals. Ledeen conveyed her deep admiration and enthusiasm as she recounted how military and CIA Counterterrorism Center officials detailed the Baghdadi operation in Congressional briefings. She felt proud to explain the operation's specifics to lawmakers and to be part of telling the story.

Ledeen: Soleimani Strike Was Bold, Risky, yet Justified by His Attacks on Americans

Ledeen highlighted the malicious influence of Soleimani, who oversaw networks inside Iraq with connections to security forces. She suggested that Chalabi may have had ties to Soleimani and could have been an Iranian asset managed by him. The bold and risky decision to strike General Soleimani was framed by Ledeen as a response to his history of American casualties, labeling him an "evil mastermind." Ledeen described President Trump’s decision as "ballsy," unique to his administration since no prior president likely would have made such a decision.

The context for the Soleimani strike related to Iran's attack on a US base in Iraq, which led to an American contractor’s death. Ledeen supported the necessity for action, emphasizing that America could not let the killing of its citizens go unpunished.

Ledeen Lauds Military Professionalism in High-Stakes Operations

Simone Ledeen lauded the precision of the Baghdadi operation in which no soldiers were hurt, except for a dog named Conan. This mission was meticulously executed by special missi ...

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The Baghdadi and Soleimani Operations

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Chalabi, an Iraqi politician, had a complex relationship with various regional actors, including Iran. There were speculations and allegations suggesting that Chalabi might have had connections to Iranian intelligence or been influenced by Iranian interests. These claims were part of the broader geopolitical dynamics in the region, where different factions and individuals often had intricate and sometimes controversial relationships with foreign powers. The specific nature and extent of Chalabi's ties to Soleimani or any Iranian involvement were subjects of debate and scrutiny within the context of regional politics and power struggles.
  • The context of Iran's attack on a US base in Iraq leading to an American contractor's death is related to escalating tensions between the two countries. The attack on the US base resulted in the death of an American contractor, prompting the US to take action in response to the loss of life. This incident was a significant factor that led to the decision to target Iranian General Soleimani in a retaliatory strike.
  • The Soleimani strike significantly impacted Iran's terror network by eliminating Soleimani, a key figure overseeing networks with connections to security forces, and his lieutenant Mohandas. This removal disrupted the leadership structure, creating a void without a clear successor, which weakened Iran's ability to carry out terror activities. The operation also showcased the importance of intelligence collaboration, particularly with Israeli partners, in targeting high-profile threats effectively. Ledeen's remarks suggest that the strike had a notable effect on Iran's terror network and its operational capabilities.
  • After the Soleimani strike, there were concerns about escalating tensions between the United States and Iran to a point where it could lead to a broader conflict involving other countries, potentially e ...

Counterarguments

  • The operations, while deemed successful, could be criticized for potentially violating international law or the sovereignty of other nations.
  • The justification for the Soleimani strike as a response to attacks on Americans can be contested on the grounds of proportionality and the risk of escalation.
  • The briefing to Congress by Ledeen might be seen as one-sided, potentially lacking a comprehensive assessment of the long-term strategic implications of the operations.
  • The claim that no great successor to Soleimani would follow could be premature, as power vacuums often lead to unforeseen consequences and the emergence of new leaders.
  • The assertion that the predicted dire consequences of the Soleimani strike did not occur may overlook longer-term geopolitical shifts and increased tensions in the region.
  • The operations' impact on Iran's terror network might be overstated, as such networks often have redundancies and can recover or reorganize after the loss of key figures.
  • The lauding of military professi ...

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#220 Simone Ledeen - Fmr. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy

The Abraham Accords and Israel's Regional Integration

Simone Ledeen provides valuable insights into the Abraham Accords and Israel's growing role in Middle Eastern geopolitics.

Ledeen Witnessed Israel-Arab Abraham Accords Normalization

During her time as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East, Simone Ledeen played a significant role in the aftermath of the Accords.

Abraham Accords: Middle Eastern Countries Previously Hostile to Israel Establish Formal Ties

Simone Ledeen discusses the historical significance of the Abraham Accords, noting that since the founding of Israel in 1948, most Arab League countries had never officially recognized Israel, despite individual peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. However, the Abraham Accords signaled a groundbreaking change, with nations like the UAE, Bahrain, Morocco, and Sudan establishing diplomatic, economic, and military ties with Israel.

Ledeen Worked to Strengthen Israel's Military and Economic Ties Post-Accords

Ledeen details her direct involvement in the reinforcement of these new relationships, especially in military and defense matters. She played a part in defense deals following the Accords and highlighted joint military exercises and Israel's entry into CENTCOM as results of the agreements, enhancing joint military activities in the region.

Abraham Accords May Reshap ...

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The Abraham Accords and Israel's Regional Integration

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Counterarguments

  • The Abraham Accords, while historic, may not necessarily lead to a comprehensive peace in the Middle East, as key players like the Palestinians were not part of the negotiations.
  • The normalization of ties with Israel could be seen by some as a strategic alignment against Iran, rather than a genuine move towards regional peace.
  • The Accords may have economic and military benefits for the signatories but could also exacerbate regional arms races and dependencies.
  • The inclusion of Israel in CENTCOM could be viewed as controversial by other countries in the region and may not be universally welcomed.
  • The impact of the Abraham Accords on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is unclear, and some argue it could sideline the Palestinian issue rather than contribute to its resolution.
  • Th ...

Actionables

  • You can deepen your understanding of Middle Eastern geopolitics by creating a visual timeline of the region's diplomatic changes, including the Abraham Accords and subsequent events. Start by researching key dates and events related to the Accords, then use a free online tool like Canva or Tiki-Toki to design an interactive timeline. This visual aid will help you grasp the sequence of events and the impact of the Accords on regional politics.
  • Enhance your global awareness by following the diplomatic and economic developments of the countries involved in the Abraham Accords on social media. Look for official government accounts, reputable news outlets, and analysts specializing in Middle Eastern affairs on platforms like Twitter and LinkedIn. By curating a list of these sources, you'll receive real-time updates on how these relationships evolve, which can provide a practical understanding of international relations.
  • Engage in cultural exchange to foster a personal con ...

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