#108 Dr. Jordan B. Peterson - We Who Wrestle With God
In this episode of the Shawn Ryan Show, clinical psychologist Jordan B. Peterson explores the vital role of honesty and sacrifice in achieving fulfillment. He emphasizes the need for open communication and embracing growth in relationships, arguing that prioritizing one's partner's well-being and making sacrifices for higher causes cultivate meaning.
Peterson also examines the Bible's symbolic stories and interconnected ideas, which he sees as conveying profound truths about the human condition's relationship with the divine. Additionally, he critiques aspects of modern society enabled by technology, such as online anonymity fostering antisocial behaviors. Peterson advocates for individual responsibility and the cultivation of virtues like honesty and courage to navigate these societal ills.
This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the May 6, 2024 episode of the Shawn Ryan Show
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Marriage and Relationships
Jordan Peterson stresses the central role of honesty and truthfulness in fostering trust and facilitating conflict resolution in marriage. He advocates committing regular time for open communication about life and the relationship. Embracing each other's growth and avoiding rigid roles helps keep the partnership dynamic.
Peterson highlights the responsibility and sacrifice required to sustain a meaningful relationship. Prioritizing your partner's well-being and willingly making sacrifices deepens the bond over time. Enduring marriages demand shared growth through life's adversities.
Personal Responsibility, Meaning, and Sacrifice
Peterson asserts that creating a purposeful life plan cultivates maturity and fulfillment. Taking responsibility for oneself prevents a sense of powerlessness. He criticizes hedonistic pursuits, arguing that facing difficulties and making sacrifices for higher causes foster meaning.
Peterson advocates aiming upwards by aligning oneself with moral righteousness, even when it requires personal sacrifice. He deems communal responsibility mature—prioritizing one's community over selfish interests. True accomplishment stems from meaningful contributions to others through generous sacrifice.
Biblical Interpretation and Symbolism
Peterson describes the Bible as humanity's first "hyperlinked" text, with 65,000 self-references forming an intricate meaning web. Symbolic stories and interconnected ideas convey truths about the human condition's relationship with the divine.
The Bible calls believers to radical responsibility and sacrificial paths like "bearing the cross." Peterson frames the core message as a heroic journey of self-sacrifice towards moral wholeness, using Job's perseverance amidst suffering as an exemplar.
The Current State of Society and Technology's Impact
Peterson critiques online anonymity fostering psychopathic, antisocial behaviors without consequences. The flattening of information hierarchies has polarized society and undermined shared truths, according to Peterson and Shawn Ryan.
They assert cultivating virtues like honesty and courage is essential to navigate societal ills amplified by technology. Individual responsibility, sacrifice and wisdom in using technology are advocated to counteract its corrosive effects.
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Clarifications
- Jordan Peterson emphasizes the importance of honesty, trust, and open communication in marriage. He believes in embracing personal growth, avoiding rigid roles, and making sacrifices to deepen the bond in a relationship. Peterson advocates for shared growth through life's challenges to nurture enduring marriages.
- A purposeful life plan involves setting clear goals and values to guide one's actions and decisions. By taking responsibility for shaping their own path, individuals can cultivate a sense of maturity and direction in life. This proactive approach helps individuals find meaning and fulfillment by aligning their actions with their deeper values and aspirations. It provides a roadmap for personal growth and achievement, leading to a more satisfying and purpose-driven life.
- Aligning oneself with moral righteousness involves adhering to ethical principles and values that are considered right and just. Making personal sacrifices in this context means willingly giving up something valuable for the greater good or to uphold these moral standards. This alignment and sacrifice are seen as essential for personal growth, societal harmony, and achieving a sense of purpose and fulfillment. Jordan Peterson emphasizes the importance of these actions in his teachings on responsibility and meaning.
- The comparison of the Bible to a "hyperlinked" text with self-references by Jordan Peterson highlights the interconnected nature of its stories and ideas. This analogy suggests that the Bible's narratives and themes are intricately linked, creating a web of meaning throughout the text. By referencing itself across various passages, the Bible reinforces and expands upon its central messages, forming a cohesive and interwoven structure. This view emphasizes the depth and complexity of the biblical text, inviting readers to explore the interconnectedness of its teachings and symbolism.
- The interpretation of symbolic stories in the Bible involves understanding them as narratives that convey deeper truths about human experiences and the relationship between humanity and the divine. These stories often use allegorical elements to communicate moral lessons, spiritual insights, and philosophical concepts. By exploring the symbolism within these narratives, individuals can reflect on universal themes such as redemption, faith, suffering, and the nature of existence. The symbolic richness of these stories invites contemplation and interpretation, offering layers of meaning that resonate with individuals on personal, cultural, and spiritual levels.
- Online anonymity can lead to psychopathic and antisocial behaviors by allowing individuals to act without accountability or consequences for their actions. When people can hide behind a screen name or avatar, they may feel emboldened to engage in harmful or aggressive behavior they wouldn't in face-to-face interactions. This lack of accountability can contribute to a breakdown in social norms and empathy, as individuals may detach from the real-world impact of their online actions. Critics argue that the anonymity provided by the internet can create a breeding ground for toxic behavior and diminish the sense of responsibility individuals feel towards others online.
- The impact of technology on society, as highlighted by Jordan Peterson, includes online anonymity fostering negative behaviors and the polarization of society due to the flattening of information hierarchies. To counteract these effects, virtues like honesty and courage are essential for individuals to navigate and address societal challenges amplified by technology. Peterson emphasizes the importance of personal responsibility, sacrifice, and wisdom in using technology to mitigate its potentially harmful consequences.
Counterarguments
- Honesty and truthfulness are important, but some argue that occasional white lies can sometimes protect partners' feelings and maintain harmony.
- While regular communication is beneficial, some couples may thrive with less frequent, but more substantial, conversations.
- Embracing growth is key, yet some couples find comfort and stability in traditional roles that work for their unique circumstances.
- Sacrifice is a part of relationships, but an overemphasis on sacrifice can lead to one partner's needs being consistently overlooked, which is not sustainable.
- Shared growth through adversity is valuable, but it's also important to recognize when a relationship is no longer contributing positively to one's life and to know when to let go.
- A purposeful life plan is helpful, but too rigid a plan can lead to disappointment; some advocate for a more flexible, adaptable approach to life's unpredictability.
- Taking responsibility is crucial, but it's also important to acknowledge systemic issues that can limit an individual's ability to control their circumstances.
- The pursuit of moral righteousness is noble, but what constitutes moral righteousness can vary greatly among different cultures and individuals.
- Community responsibility is important, but there must be a balance with self-care and personal boundaries to avoid burnout and resentment.
- The Bible's role as a "hyperlinked" text is an interesting interpretation, but not all scholars or believers agree with this view or find it useful in their faith practice.
- The Bible's stories are indeed symbolic, but interpretations of these symbols can be diverse and not everyone agrees on their meanings or relevance to modern life.
- The call to radical responsibility and sacrifice in religious texts can be inspiring, but some argue that these calls should not be taken to extremes that can be harmful to the individual.
- Online anonymity does have its downsides, but it also provides a platform for free speech and protection for those in vulnerable positions to express themselves without fear of retribution.
- While the flattening of information hierarchies can lead to polarization, it also democratizes access to information and can empower marginalized voices.
- Cultivating virtues to counteract societal ills is important, but it's also necessary to address structural and systemic issues that contribute to these ills beyond individual actions.
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Marriage and Relationships
Jordan Peterson dives into the complexities and necessities of a flourishing marriage, highlighting key areas such as honesty, trust, and the continuous effort required to maintain a successful partnership.
Honesty, trust, and communication are essential for a successful marriage
Truthfulness Builds Trust and Resolution
Peterson stresses the critical role of honesty in marriage. He shares that an unwavering commitment to telling the truth is a vow he and his partner uphold. Truth fosters trust, simplifies life, and aids in resolving inevitable problems. Peterson acknowledges that conflict can arise over significant issues like child discipline and finances, but maintaining truthfulness facilitates successful resolutions.
Commit Time to Partnership Communication
Further, Peterson suggests dedicating about 90 minutes each week to discussions concerning various aspects of life, including the relationship itself, children, and domestic affairs. By addressing even seemingly small matters regularly, larger issues are prevented from accumulating. Akin to 'cleaning out one's closet,' this practice prevents problems from evolving into insurmountable challenges.
Embrace a Dynamic Relationship
Peterson also advises couples to avoid constraining each other to fixed roles, which can lead to boredom. Continuous communication and support for each other's growth enable partners to reveal new sides of themselves, making the relationship more dynamic and preventing stagnation.
Responsibility, sacrifice, and meaning are key to fulfilling relationships
Peterson delves into the pillars of responsibility and sacrifice within a meaningful relationship. A partnership thrives when both individuals take responsibility for the other's well-being and willingly make sacrifices for the greater good of the union. Enduring marriage involves facing adversities and growing together, pr ...
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Marriage and Relationships
Additional Materials
Clarifications
- Jordan Peterson is a Canadian psychologist and professor known for his views on personal responsibility, individualism, and traditional values. He gained popularity for his critiques of political correctness and his emphasis on the importance of free speech. Peterson's self-help book "12 Rules for Life" and his lectures on topics like psychology, philosophy, and cultural issues have sparked both admiration and controversy. His perspectives on relationships often focus on themes like honesty, communication, responsibility, and sacrifice as essential elements for building strong and meaningful connections.
- In the context of maintaining a successful marriage, dedicating 90 minutes each week to discussions is a proactive approach to nurturing communication and addressing various aspects of the relationship. This practice helps prevent small issues from escalating into larger problems and allows couples to stay connected and engaged with each other regularly. By setting aside this specific time for meaningful conversations, partners can strengthen their bond and ensure that important topics are consistently addressed. This dedicated time fosters a sense of openness, understanding, and mutual support within the relationship.
- In a relationship, avoiding fixed roles means not limiting each other to specific expectations or behaviors based on traditional gender norms or societal stereotypes. It encourages partners to be flexible, allowing for personal growth and the exploration of different aspects of themselves within the relationship. This approach promotes a dynamic and evolving partnership where individuals can express their true selves authentically. It fosters an environment where both partners can contribute equally based on their strengths and interests, rather than conforming to predefined roles.
- Enduring marriage involves partners confronting challenges together and using these experiences to strengthen their bond. Facing adversities can include financial struggles, health issues, or disagreements, whi ...
Counterarguments
- While honesty is important, some argue that there are situations where complete transparency might not be beneficial, and that tact and discretion can sometimes be more supportive to a partner's emotional well-being.
- Trust is indeed foundational, but it's also important to recognize that trust can mean different things to different people, and there may be cultural or personal differences in how trust is built and maintained.
- The recommendation of committing a specific amount of time, like 90 minutes a week, to communication may not be practical or necessary for all couples, as some may require more or less frequent check-ins depending on their communication styles and life circumstances.
- Embracing a dynamic relationship is valuable, but some couples may find comfort and stability in defined roles that provide structure and predictability, which can also contribute to a successful partnership.
- The emphasis on responsibility and sacrifice might overlook the importance of individual fulfillment and autonomy in a relationship, which can also be crucial for a healthy and balanced partnership.
- The idea that ...
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Personal Responsibility, Meaning, and Sacrifice
Jordan Peterson sheds light on the deep connection between personal growth and meaningful life, which he argues, stems from embracing responsibility and the readiness to make sacrifices.
The path to personal growth and meaning involves shouldering maximal responsibility
Maturity and fulfillment come through voluntarily confronting and overcoming life's difficulties, not through pursuing hedonistic comfort
Jordan Peterson accentuates the imperative of identifying one's faults and virtues as pivotal to personal growth. He underscores that creating a structured life plan can significantly decrease college dropout rates and improve academic performance. By having a vision as a future roadmap, Peterson points out, one avoids becoming lost and succumbing to a sense of powerlessness. Without direction, he relays, life can spiral into meaninglessness.
Peterson discusses the importance of taking responsibility for one's life, cautioning that shirking this duty leads to a form of tyranny. Avoidance of responsibility, he suggests, makes individuals susceptible to manipulation and contempt. Reflecting on societal changes over the past 60 years, Peterson criticizes the notion promoting hedonistic life pursuits as the end goal. Instead, he proposes that the rights granted to people are there to foster responsibility. Taking on burdens, he positions, is where the true adventure and meaning of life are found.
Adopting an "upward aim" of aligning oneself with what is morally right, even when it requires personal sacrifice, is the surest route to a meaningful life
Peterson delves into the concept of atonement as a way of facing and amending one's wrongs, even if painful, stressing that personal growth comes from such endeavours. Aligning oneself with moral righteousness, such as in the process of aiming upwards and taking on incremental improvements, is put forth as a fulfilling life approach. Peterson speaks of adventure through responsibility, which, he says, has lacked emphasis in recent times. He ties the act of making sacrifices for higher purposes to inner satisfaction and meaning.
Embracing responsibility and sacrifice is both an individual and communal endeavor
Prioritizing the needs of one's community and loved ones over narrow self-interest is essential for building a healthy society
Jordan Peterson affirms that responsibility equates to maturity and emphasizes the significance of sacrificing personal comforts for the future. Tackling habitual lying, for instance, he notes, leads a person to inhabit a false reality and miss the chance to face life’s inherent challenges.
The future authoring program Peterson discusses appears to be a psychological tool aimed at galvanizing individuals by establishing a vision and a directi ...
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Personal Responsibility, Meaning, and Sacrifice
Additional Materials
Clarifications
- The concept of "upward aim" in Jordan Peterson's philosophy involves setting moral ideals as goals for personal growth. It emphasizes striving towards what is considered morally right and virtuous, even if it requires personal sacrifice. This approach aims to guide individuals towards a more meaningful and fulfilling life by aligning their actions with ethical principles and values. Peterson suggests that by adopting an "upward aim," individuals can find purpose and direction in their lives, contributing to their own growth and the betterment of society.
- Atonement is the process of facing and making amends for one's wrongdoings, even if it involves discomfort. It plays a crucial role in personal growth by fostering self-awareness, accountability, and the opportunity for redemption. By acknowledging and rectifying past mistakes, individuals can experience emotional healing and spiritual growth. Atonement encourages individuals to confront their flaws, learn from them, and strive towards becoming better versions of themselves.
- The Future Authoring Program is a psychological tool developed by Jordan Peterson to help individuals set goals and create a vision for their future. It involves writing about one's ideal future, potential obstacles, and strategies to overcome them. The program aims to increase motivation, clarify values, and provide a roadmap for personal development and success. It encourages individuals to take responsibility for their lives and make choices that align with their long-term aspirations.
- True accomplishment from making meaningful contributions to others emphasizes the fulfillment and pride derived from positively impacting the lives of those around you. It suggests that the value of one's actions is magnified when they benefit others, fostering a sense of purpose and interconnectedness within a community. This concept highlights the idea that personal success is not solely measured by individual gains but also by the positive influence and support one provides to others. By prioritizing the well-being and growth of others, individuals can experience a deeper sense of achievement and satisfaction that transcends personal achievements.
- Sacrificing personal comforts is linked to maturity as it involves prioritizing long-term growth over immediate gratification. By forgoing instant pleasures, individuals demonstrate the ability to delay g ...
Counterarguments
- Personal responsibility is important, but societal structures and inequalities also play a significant role in an individual's ability to succeed and should not be overlooked.
- Overemphasis on personal sacrifice can lead to burnout and neglect of one's own well-being, which is also important for a healthy society.
- The concept of what is "morally right" can vary greatly between cultures and individuals, and there may not be a one-size-fits-all approach to morality and meaning.
- Hedonism, in moderation, can be a part of a well-rounded life, contributing to happiness and stress relief.
- The idea that taking on burdens leads to meaning may not resonate with everyone, and some may find meaning through joy and ease rather than through struggle and sacrifice.
- The future authoring program, while beneficial for some, may not be effective for everyone, as people have different learning styles and motivational factors.
- The focus on individual responsibility may underplay the importance of collective action and systemic change in addressing societal issues.
- The notion of atonement and facing one's wrongs, while valuable, may not account for the complexity of human psychology and the various factors that contribute to behavior.
- The emphasis on prioritizing community needs can sometimes overshadow the importance of setting healthy boundaries and practicing self-care.
- The idea that true accomplishment comes from contributing to others might undervalue personal ...
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Biblical Interpretation and Symbolism
Dr. Jordan Peterson delves deeply into the symbolism and narrative complexity of the Bible, illustrating how it provides a framework for understanding the intricacies of human existence and our interactions with both divinity and morality.
The Bible is a complex, interconnected text that repays deep study
Peterson mentions a graph of biblical cross-references displaying the interconnected nature of the Bible, outlining its complexity and potentially problematic aspects of over-interconnectivity. With about 65,000 self-references creating an intricate web of meaning, Peterson describes the Bible as the world's first hyperlinked text, exploding exponentially in terms of interpretive pathways.
Shawn Ryan adds to this by showing a visual aid pointing to the extensive number of cross-references in the Bible, highlighting the central importance of certain verses.
The Bible references itself approximately 65,000 times, creating a web of meaning that cannot be fully grasped through isolated verses
Peterson explains that each biblical idea is interwoven with a web of others, conveying multifaceted truths about the human condition and our relationship with the divine. As he illustrates the statistical likelihood of co-occurring ideas, he uses the term "witch" as an example to show how the cumulative portrayals through history influence our present understanding of concepts.
Biblical symbols and stories often convey multifaceted truths about the human condition and our relationship with the divine
He outlines that no idea within the Bible exists in isolation; instead, each idea is in a relationship with the entire web that forms the text. This relationship represents a reality in and of itself. Peterson also uses the story of Exodus as an illustration of the transformative challenges that follow liberation from tyranny, symbolizing the wanderings of enlightenment as a desert experience followed by a doubling down on pride and presumptions leading to destruction.
The Bible calls believers to a life of radical responsibility and self-sacrifice
Speaking of the path to redemption through confession, repentance, and atonement, Peterson touches on the profound concept of radical responsibility. The idea of sacrifice as a pathway forward, he suggests, is at the heart of the Bible's teachings that call for self-improvement beyond immediate desires for a greater good.
Concepts like "bearing the cross" and imitating Christ's willingness to confront evil represent a challenging, transformative path of spiritual growth
The story of Abraham is put forward as a symbol of personal responsibility and a transformative journey prescribed by the Bible. Peterson reflects on the biblical call to "pick up your cross and walk uphill, ...
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Biblical Interpretation and Symbolism
Additional Materials
Clarifications
- A graph of biblical cross-references visually represents the interconnected nature of the Bible by showing how different verses reference each other. It helps illustrate the complex web of relationships between various passages in the text, highlighting the depth of interconnectivity within the biblical narrative. This tool aids in understanding the intricate network of themes, ideas, and symbolism that permeate the Bible, offering insights into the layers of meaning and significance present in the scriptures. Such graphs can reveal patterns, repetitions, and thematic connections that enrich the interpretation and study of the biblical text.
- The statistical likelihood of co-occurring ideas in the Bible relates to how certain concepts or themes are interconnected and appear together within the text more frequently than would be expected by chance. This concept helps illustrate the depth and complexity of the Bible's narratives and symbolism, showing how various ideas within the text reinforce and enrich each other. By analyzing these patterns of co-occurrence, scholars like Dr. Jordan Peterson can uncover layers of meaning and insight into the interconnected nature of biblical teachings.
- The story of Exodus in the Bible is often interpreted as a metaphor for the journey from oppression to liberation, symbolizing enlightenment and freedom. It portrays the Israelites' escape from slavery in Egypt, their trials in the desert, and their eventual arrival in the Promised Land. The narrative highlights themes of struggle, transformation, and the dangers of succumbing to pride and arrogance after experiencing liberation. This metaphorical journey is seen as a reflection of the challenges and pitfalls individuals may face on the path to enlightenment and self-discovery.
- "Bearing the cross" is a symbolic reference to the act of enduring suffering or hardship with courage and faith, inspired by the biblical narrative of Jesus carrying his cross to his crucifixion. It signifies embracing personal challenges and responsibilities, even when they are difficult or painful, as a demonstration of commitment and sacrifice. This concept is often interpreted as a call to confront adversity with resilience and to follow a path of moral and spiritual growth through perseverance and selflessness. The metaphor emphasizes the transformative nature of facing struggles with dignity and convicti ...
Counterarguments
- While the Bible is indeed complex and interconnected, some scholars argue that its complexity does not necessarily mean that it always provides clear or consistent messages, and different interpretations can lead to conflicting understandings.
- The fact that the Bible references itself many times could be seen as a limitation rather than a strength, as it may suggest a closed loop of ideas rather than an openness to external sources of wisdom or knowledge.
- Some critics argue that the multifaceted truths conveyed by biblical symbols and stories are subject to the interpreter's biases and cultural background, which can lead to a wide array of potentially contradictory interpretations.
- The call to a life of radical responsibility and self-sacrifice in the Bible can be interpreted in ways that might justify suffering or martyrdom in a manner that some believe is unhealthy or unnecessary.
- The concept of "bearing the cross" and imitating Christ's willingness to confro ...
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The Current State of Society and the Impact of Technology
Jordan Peterson and Shawn Ryan discuss the impact of technology on society, noting how it can enable harmful behaviors and foster polarization, undermining shared truths and community. They underscore the need for individual and communal responsibility to address societal ills.
Social media and other new technologies have enabled the proliferation of harmful, irresponsible behavior
The ease of anonymous, consequence-free communication online has empowered those with antisocial, destructive tendencies
Jordan Peterson expresses concern over platforms like Twitter, which he describes as a form of speech without responsibility. He contrasts online communication with face-to-face interaction, where consequences and social norms naturally limit what is said. Peterson warns that the anonymity and lack of immediate repercussions online can result in positive outcomes for psychopathic behavior, jeopardizing society's wellbeing. He notes that especially in the context of gossip and reputation damage, platforms like Twitter can exacerbate female aggression by leveraging their tendency towards reputation destruction as a form of aggression.
The flattening of traditional information hierarchies has led to the spread of polarization and the undermining of shared truths
Peterson points out the powerful communication systems made available by technology, which allow casual comments to reach millions, potentially causing serious negative consequences. He questions whether a platform like Twitter, even under new leadership like Elon Musk's, can truly serve the cause of free speech without inherent problems. Peterson describes an environment on Twitter where "all the psychopaths come out to play," leading to predatory and destructive online behaviors.
Shawn Ryan adds to the discourse by mentioning how new technologies have collapsed information hierarchies, giving rise to a society where everyone can become a journalist. He suggests that the connectivity brought by technology—while amplifying the voices of individuals who may have once been marginalized—also fosters the spread of divisive figures and ideas.
Navigating the challenges of the modern world requires recovering a sense of individual and communal responsibility
Cultivating virtues like honesty, courage, and willingness to make sacrifices for the greater good is essential for addressing societal ills
Peterson warns against becoming "slaves" to the "tyrant" forces that promise to take care of individuals without a need for maturity and sacrifice. He advocates for personal responsibility and impl ...
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The Current State of Society and the Impact of Technology
Additional Materials
Clarifications
- Jordan Peterson and Shawn Ryan discuss the impact of technology on society, highlighting concerns about harmful behaviors enabled by social media's anonymity and the spread of divisive ideas due to the collapse of traditional information hierarchies. They emphasize the importance of individual and communal responsibility in addressing societal challenges, advocating for virtues like honesty, courage, and accountability to counteract the negative effects of technology. Peterson warns against relying on external forces for care and stresses the need for personal responsibility and maturity in navigating the modern world. Ryan adds to the discussion by pointing out how technology amplifies voices but also brings forth predatory and destructive behaviors online.
- Information hierarchies represent the traditional structures where certain sources or institutions held authority over disseminating information. With the rise of technology and social media, these hierarchies have been flattened, allowing anyone to share information widely. This shift has led to a situation where divisive figures and ideas can gain prominence and influence, potentially contributing to polarization within society. The ease of spreading information through various platforms has enabled voices that may have been marginalized in traditional hierarchies to reach larger audiences, impacting the formation of shared truths and contributing to societal divisions.
- In the context of societal challenges, virtues like honesty, courage, and sacrifice are seen as essential qualities that individuals and communities should uphold. Honesty involves being truthful and transparent in interactions, fostering trust and integrity. Courage is the ability to confront difficulties and fears, enabling individuals to stand up for what is right even in the face of adversity. Sacrifice entails giving up personal interests for the greater good, emphasizing the importance of ...
Counterarguments
- Social media and new technologies can also foster positive behaviors and enable social movements, providing a platform for marginalized voices and facilitating community building and support networks.
- The democratization of information through technology can lead to a more informed and engaged citizenry, challenging traditional gatekeepers and allowing for a diversity of perspectives.
- Individual and communal responsibility can sometimes be used to shift the focus away from systemic issues that require collective action and policy changes, not just personal virtue.
- Emphasizing virtues like honesty, courage, and sacrifice might overlook the complexity of societal problems that cannot be solved by individual character alone and may require structural solutions.
- Technological advancements have historically been accompani ...
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