Podcasts > Shawn Ryan Show > #105 General Robert Spalding - Is TikTok a PSYOP?

#105 General Robert Spalding - Is TikTok a PSYOP?

By Shawn Ryan Show

In this episode of the Shawn Ryan Show, General Robert Spalding sounds the alarm on China's growing threat to critical US infrastructure like the power grid and water systems. He warns of China's aggressive military posturing and ambition to annex Taiwan, as well as its efforts to exert global influence through social media platforms like TikTok.

Spalding and host Shawn Ryan delve into China's alleged tactics of stealing US technology and intellectual property. They also explore potential solutions, such as decentralized, user-owned 5G networks resilient to hacking attempts and empowering individuals to control their data. The conversation underscores the urgency in securing US infrastructure against vulnerabilities that China could potentially exploit.

#105 General Robert Spalding - Is TikTok a PSYOP?

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#105 General Robert Spalding - Is TikTok a PSYOP?

1-Page Summary

China's Threat to US Critical Infrastructure

According to Robert Spalding, the US power grid faces extreme vulnerabilities, with most high-power transformers manufactured in China and susceptible to malware attacks. The grid's reliance on software systems increases its exposure. Spalding also highlights risks to water systems, citing past hacking incidents.

China's Global Ambitions and Military Posturing

Robert Spalding believes China is motivated to annex Taiwan and rebuild a great Chinese empire. He claims China has a history of stealing US tech and IP and is preparing for conflict through initiatives like the Belt and Road projects. Spalding warns of China's military buildup, potentially outmatching the US in the region and enabling an overwhelming assault on Taiwan.

Chinese Influence through Social Media

Spalding and Shawn Ryan express concerns over TikTok and other platforms manipulating narratives and behaviors to serve Chinese interests. For example, TikTok has promoted contacting Congress against divestiture. Spalding likens ByteDance's data collection aims to Silicon Valley companies' methods. Pervasive data gathering through phones/apps allows tracking individuals and identifying potential security risks.

Resilient Decentralized Communication Infrastructure

Spalding advocates for a shift from centralized systems to software-enabled decentralized 5G networks where users own private networks controlling their data. He details innovations like hardened cellular equipment resilient against hacking and EMPs, affordable for community deployment to maintain reliable communication during disruptions. Partnerships enable classified communication over secure commercial devices.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The US power grid faces vulnerabilities due to its reliance on high-power transformers, many of which are manufactured in China. These transformers are susceptible to malware attacks, posing a risk to the grid's stability and security. The interconnected nature of the grid and its reliance on software systems further increase its exposure to potential cyber threats. This situation highlights the importance of securing critical infrastructure components to safeguard against potential disruptions or attacks.
  • ByteDance's data collection methods, similar to Silicon Valley companies, involve gathering vast amounts of user data through their apps like TikTok. This data includes user interactions, preferences, and behaviors to personalize content and target advertisements. ByteDance, like many tech firms, utilizes this data to enhance user engagement and monetize their platforms. However, concerns have been raised about how this data may be used and shared, especially given ByteDance's Chinese ownership and potential ties to the Chinese government.
  • Chinese influence through social media platforms like TikTok raises concerns about data privacy, manipulation of narratives, and potential propaganda dissemination. The collection of vast amounts of user data by these platforms can lead to tracking individuals and identifying security risks. There are worries about how these platforms could be used to shape public opinion and influence behaviors in ways that align with Chinese interests. This influence can extend to political activism and lobbying efforts, impacting decision-making processes in various spheres.

Counterarguments

  • The US power grid includes equipment from a variety of international sources, not exclusively China, and there are efforts to secure the supply chain and improve cybersecurity.
  • Software systems can be designed with robust security measures, and the industry is continually improving these systems to mitigate cyber threats.
  • The US has multiple layers of security for critical water systems, and while hacking incidents have occurred, they often lead to improvements in security protocols.
  • China's intentions regarding Taiwan are complex, and there are diplomatic efforts and strategies in place aimed at preventing conflict.
  • Accusations of IP theft are serious, but it's important to recognize that China also invests heavily in its own R&D and has made significant technological advancements independently.
  • The Belt and Road Initiative is a global development strategy that China claims is aimed at economic cooperation and connectivity, and not all aspects of it are necessarily linked to military preparations.
  • Military buildup is a concern, but the US maintains a significant military presence in the Asia-Pacific region and has alliances that contribute to regional security.
  • Social media influence is not unique to Chinese platforms; all social media can be used to manipulate narratives, and there are efforts to regulate and monitor these activities globally.
  • TikTok's lobbying efforts are a form of corporate advocacy common among international companies and not necessarily indicative of state-directed influence.
  • Data collection practices are a widespread issue across many tech companies globally, and there are ongoing discussions and legislation aimed at protecting user privacy.
  • Decentralized 5G networks offer potential benefits, but there are also challenges related to implementation, cost, and interoperability with existing infrastructure.
  • Hardened cellular equipment and EMP resilience are important, but there may be technical and financial constraints that affect the feasibility of widespread community deployment.
  • While partnerships for secure communication are valuable, they must be balanced with considerations of privacy, civil liberties, and the potential for misuse.

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#105 General Robert Spalding - Is TikTok a PSYOP?

China's threat to US critical infrastructure

Spalding raises alarms about the potential threats to the United States’ critical infrastructure, focusing specifically on the vulnerabilities in the power grid and water systems, which could be linked to China's influence and cyber capabilities.

Vulnerabilities in the US power grid

The US power grid's security has become an increasing concern. According to Spalding, the vulnerabilities of the grid are extreme, rating it at the highest level of concern.

Majority of high-power transformers built in China

It's revealed that most high-power transformers, critical components of the power grid infrastructure, are manufactured in China; perhaps as much as 88% or more. Moreover, these pieces of equipment are not quickly produced; they require a two to three-year timeframe to build.

Grid modernization leads to dependence on software and networks

Another significant vulnerability lies in the modernization of the grid, which now relies heavily on software and network systems rather than manual control. The skill of using walkie-talkies and manual adjustments seems to be a bygone practice, as engineers today depend on automated processes. Previously, engineers would manually adjust loads on different parts of the grid to recover service, but now software systems are in control.

Evidence of Chinese hacking and malware targeting grid

Spalding draws attention to reports of malware in products from companies like Cisco, which have infiltrated the power grid. This malware is poised to compromise SCADA systems that manage the grid's operations. The possibility that malware has already been planted within the grid is concerning, as it implies that an adversary could, in theory, cripple the system with the metaphorical flip of a switch.

Risks to other critical systems like water

Spalding also points to the United States' water ...

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China's threat to US critical infrastructure

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • SCADA systems, which stands for Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition, are used to monitor and control industrial processes remotely. They involve a network of computers, sensors, and controllers to oversee and manage machinery and systems. SCADA systems allow operators to interact with and make decisions based on real-time data from various devices and sensors. These systems are crucial for supervising complex processes across different locations efficiently.
  • Grid modernization in the context of the power grid involves the integration of advanced technologies like software and network systems to enhance efficiency and reliability. This shift reduces the reliance on manual control methods, such as using walkie-talkies and making physical adjustments, in favor of automated processes. Engineers now depend on software systems to manage and control various aspects of the grid's operations, marking a departure from traditional manual interventions.
  • The vulnerabilities in the US power grid due to Chinese influence and cyber capabilities stem from the significant reliance on high-power transformers manufactured in China, potential malware infiltration targeting critical grid systems, and the shift towards software-controlled operations, which can be exploited by cyber threats.
  • High-power transformers are essential components of the power grid that help regulate and distribute electricity efficiently. They are responsible for stepping up voltage for long-distance transmission and stepping it down for local distribution. These transformers are crucial for maintaining the stability and reliability of the electrical grid. Their failure or disruption can lead to widespread power outages and significant damage to the infrastructure.
  • The lack of US inve ...

Counterarguments

  • The extent of the US power grid's vulnerabilities may not be fully represented by the percentage of transformers built in China, as there are multiple factors that contribute to grid security.
  • Dependence on software and networks for grid modernization is a global trend and can lead to increased efficiency and quicker response times to outages if properly secured.
  • The presence of malware in products does not necessarily indicate active exploitation or that the origin is exclusively China; cybersecurity is a complex field with multiple actors.
  • The US has been making efforts to improve its cybersecurity posture, including initiatives to protect critical infrastructure, which may not be fully captured in the text.
  • The risk of foreign-manufactured components in critical infrastructure is not unique to China, and focusing solely on China may overlook broader supply chain vulnerabilities.
  • The US has regulator ...

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#105 General Robert Spalding - Is TikTok a PSYOP?

China's motivation and strategy for expanding global influence and preparing for war

The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has strategically ingrained the notion that Taiwan is an inseparable part of China, despite historical inaccuracies. Robert Spalding and others believe that the annexation of Taiwan is essential to the CCP's narrative of restoring a great Chinese empire, which the Party promotes to its population.

History of technology and IP theft from the US

During the Trump administration's first year, significant trade negotiations were discussed, reflecting concern over Chinese manufacturing and its effects on the global market. However, according to Robert Spalding, China signaled that it was preparing for conflict, not cooperation, by tearing up a trade agreement in late 2017. China's success has been partly attributed to its access to US technology, talent, and capital, which was supposed to be based on mutual benefit—a relationship Spalding suggests never truly existed. He references the Section 301 investigation, which documented China's detrimental practices to the US economy, including the theft of technology and intellectual property.

Preparing to withstand Western sanctions through Belt and Road banking relationships

Spalding discusses China's Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) which includes infrastructure projects like railroads, bridges, dams, and factories, as a means to extend China's global influence. These projects are reportedly executed with the CCP's interest at the forefront. China is also constructing a world in its image, possibly as part of its strategy to build resilient banking relationships that could help withstand Western sanctions, similar to what Russia faced post-Ukraine invasion.

The BRI's infrastructure projects are seen as a means of securing and preparing the country against potential confrontations or economic sanctions. A meeting with international bankers to simulate US sanctions highlighted China's strategies to circumvent such financial obstacles.

Military buildup and overwhelming force against Taiwan

The strategic control of Taiwan is crucial for China as it could hinder the US from defending allies such as Japan, Korea, and the Philippines by cutting off the first island chain. Spalding suggests that the absence of ...

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China's motivation and strategy for expanding global influence and preparing for war

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Robert Spalding is a retired U.S. Air Force brigadier general and a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute. He is known for his views on China's strategic ambitions and its impact on the United States. Spalding has written extensively on topics such as technology transfer, intellectual property theft, and China's military buildup, often advocating for a more robust U.S. response to these challenges. His perspectives are informed by his military background and experience in dealing with national security issues related to China.
  • The Section 301 investigation was a probe initiated by the United States to examine China's unfair trade practices, including intellectual property theft and technology transfer issues. It aimed to address concerns about China's impact on the U.S. economy and its trade relationships. The investigation led to tariffs being imposed on Chinese goods as a response to the findings of unfair trade practices. The Section 301 report documented various ways in which China was believed to be harming U.S. economic interests through its trade policies.
  • The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a global infrastructure development strategy led by China to enhance connectivity and trade between Asia, Europe, and Africa. It aims to build networks of roads, railways, ports, and other infrastructure to facilitate economic cooperation and cultural exchange. The initiative is seen as a way for China to expand its influence globally and secure access to key markets and resources. Critics raise concerns about debt sustainability, transparency, and geopolitical implications of the projects under the BRI.
  • The "first island chain" is a strategic concept referring to a series of islands in the Western Pacific, including Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines, and Indonesia. It is significant because control of this chain allows a country to project power and potentially restrict the movement of naval forces in the region. China sees control of the first island chain as crucial for limiting U.S. military influence in the Asia-Pacific region. By controlling this chain, China could potentially hinder U.S. efforts to defend its allies and interests in the area.
  • The US nuclear umbrella policy involves the United States providing a defense guarantee to its non-nuclear allies, promising to use its nuclear capabilities to protect them in the event of an attack. This policy aims to deter potential ad ...

Counterarguments

  • The notion that Taiwan is an inseparable part of China is based on the CCP's interpretation of history, which is contested by many, including the government of Taiwan itself, which maintains that it is a sovereign state.
  • The idea that the annexation of Taiwan is essential to restoring a great Chinese empire is a narrative that may not be universally accepted within China or by the international community.
  • The tearing up of a trade agreement in 2017 could be interpreted as a negotiating tactic rather than a signal of preparation for conflict.
  • China's success can also be attributed to its large domestic market, investment in education and infrastructure, and government policies that promote economic growth, not solely on access to US technology, talent, and capital.
  • Some argue that the relationship between China and the US has had mutual benefits, such as economic growth and lower consumer prices in the US, despite the challenges.
  • The Section 301 investigation reflects the US perspective and may not capture the complexities of the US-China economic relationship or China's own views on intellectual property and technology transfer.
  • The Belt and Road Initiative could be seen as a development strategy aimed at improving regional connectivity and economic development, rather than solely extending China's global influence.
  • Some BRI projects have been welcomed by host countries for their potential to boost local economies and infrastructure development.
  • The construction of a world in China's image could be seen as China's pursuit of a development model that suits its national interests, similar to how other major powers promote their own models.
  • The strategic importance of Taiwan is recognized by many, but there are differing views on the best approach to ensure peace and stability acro ...

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#105 General Robert Spalding - Is TikTok a PSYOP?

Protecting society, data, and privacy from Chinese influence operations

Robert Spalding and Shawn Ryan explore concerns surrounding Chinese influence operations through technology, particularly highlighting issues with TikTok and data collection that affect societal behavior and privacy.

Social media platforms used to manipulate narratives and behavior

TikTok serving Chinese state interests

Spalding and Ryan bring into focus the role of social media platforms, particularly TikTok, in serving the interests of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). They mention TikTok as a potential spy apparatus that undermines intelligence levels in the US. Discussions indicate a belief that TikTok is utilized for narrative and behavior manipulation in line with Chinese state interests.

TikTok has been involved in a campaign urging users to contact Congress in opposition to a bill requiring ByteDance to divest from it. The CCP sees such platforms as means of influence, capable of shaping perceptions and behavior. Spalding compares how ByteDance may aim to make citizens better socialists with how Silicon Valley uses data to make people better consumers.

Evidence of TikTok's influence includes messages promoting CCP policies presented in diverse settings appealing to different audiences. Furthermore, TikTok's involvement in societal values and patterns is discussed, noting that the app lacks usage restrictions in the US, unlike in China, pointing to a manipulative erosion of the US value system.

Spalding asserts that China's ambition to dominate AI is fueled by access to vast amounts of data, which ByteDance's algorithms can potentially use to manipulate global narratives in favor of Chinese interests.

Pervasive data collection through phones and apps

Metadata tracking and targeting

Spalding raises concerns about pervasive data collection, particularly through phones and apps. He describes how software development kits for applications collect metadata, allowing for the tracking and behavioral profiling of individuals. An example is given of military bases being observed to determine operational patterns, which in turn could lead to the identification of individuals based on their device's location history.

Full control only through owning in ...

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Protecting society, data, and privacy from Chinese influence operations

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Influence operations through technology involve using digital platforms like social media to shape opinions, behaviors, and narratives. This can be done by spreading specific information, manipulating content visibility, or targeting specific groups with tailored messages. Such operations can be used by various entities, including governments or organizations, to achieve strategic goals or influence public perception.
  • The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is the ruling political party in China. It exercises significant control over various aspects of Chinese society, including technology and media. When discussing CCP influence, it typically involves how the party uses its power to shape narratives, behaviors, and policies both domestically and internationally to further its interests and maintain its authority. CCP influence operations can involve tactics like information manipulation, censorship, and strategic investments to advance its agenda and strengthen its position on the global stage.
  • ByteDance divestment involves the process of ByteDance being required to sell off its ownership or control of certain assets, like TikTok, due to concerns about its ties to the Chinese government and potential risks to national security. This action aims to separate ByteDance from these assets to mitigate any influence or control that the Chinese government could exert through them. The divestment requirement is often a result of regulatory or legislative measures aimed at safeguarding data privacy and national interests from foreign influence.
  • China's ambition to dominate AI stems from its strategic focus on harnessing vast amounts of data to train algorithms. By having access to extensive data sources, Chinese companies aim to develop advanced artificial intelligence technologies that can shape global narratives and influence in favor of Chinese interests. This ambition is seen as a key component of China's broader strategy to establish technological leadership and exert influence on a global scale. The pursuit of AI dominance is intertwined with China's efforts to leverage technology as a tool for economic growth, national security, and geopolitical influence.
  • Metadata tracking and targeting involve the collection and analysis of data about data. This process helps in understanding patterns, behaviors, and preferences of individuals based on the information associated with their digital activities. By tracking metadata, organizations can create targeted strategies for advertising, content delivery, or even surveillance, as it provides insights into user interactions and habits without delving into the actual content of the communication or activity. This practice is often used by companies and governments to tailor services, products, or messages to specific audiences, sometimes raising concerns about privacy and potential misuse of personal information.
  • A software development kit (SDK) is a set of tools that help developers create applications by providing necessary resources like compilers and debuggers. SDKs are often tailored to specific platforms and operating systems, enabling developers to access advanced functionalities and features for their apps. They can include tools for tasks like integrating advertisements, push notifications, analytics, and more. Companies like Google, Facebook, and others create SDKs to assist developers in building and enhancing their applications.
  • Behavioral profiling involves analyzing data to create profiles of indiv ...

Counterarguments

  • TikTok operates independently of the Chinese government and has taken steps to store US user data outside of China to mitigate concerns over data privacy and influence.
  • The assertion that TikTok is a spy apparatus lacks concrete evidence, as no substantial proof has been provided to the public that TikTok has been used for espionage activities by the Chinese state.
  • The claim that TikTok is used for narrative and behavior manipulation could be considered speculative without direct evidence of intentional manipulation for state purposes.
  • Users contacting Congress through campaigns on social media platforms is a common practice in democratic societies and does not necessarily indicate foreign manipulation.
  • The comparison of ByteDance's data use to make citizens better socialists is an assumption that may not reflect the company's actual intentions or practices.
  • The promotion of any policies, including those of the CCP, on social media platforms does not inherently constitute manipulation and can be part of the diverse political discourse.
  • The lack of usage restrictions on TikTok in the US could be seen as a reflection of free speech values rather than a manipulative tactic.
  • The ambition to dominate AI is not unique to China and is a common goal among many nations and companies globally.
  • Data collection through phones and apps is a widespread practice across the tech industry, not exclusive to Chinese companies.
  • Metadata tracking and behavioral profiling are industry standards in digital advertising and are not solely practices of Chinese companies.
  • Monitoring military bases using location data is a security concern that is not unique to Chinese apps and can be addressed through existing cybersecurity measures.
  • Infrastructure projects by companies li ...

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#105 General Robert Spalding - Is TikTok a PSYOP?

Building secure, resilient communication infrastructure

Robert Spalding discusses the need for a transition from a highly centralized communication system to a more resilient, software-based, and decentralized architecture, which is essential for maintaining reliable communication during natural disasters and in the face of physical or cyber attacks.

Software-based 5G networks enabling decentralized architectures

New model - users as network owners

Spalding describes a future where individuals can own a private network that allows them to control their data, likening the product to both a data center and a network. He speaks on the potential for decentralized architectures to support and extend existing cellular networks, serving government missions and civilian life in emergencies. The aim is to create infrastructure that links various technologies, including 5G, to increase flexibility and connectivity.

Devices, connectivity, computing in a single solution

Spalding presents a solution that moves away from traditional hardware components to software running on servers. The shift to software diminishes vulnerability by not dispersing code across different locations and keeping the network local, ensuring its operation even if other parts are compromised. The proposed product is affordable enough for community purchase and setup in underserved areas, essentially creating mini Silicon Valleys with considerable technological infrastructure capabilities.

Innovations for reliability, security, and ease-of-use

Commercial equipment hardened against hacking and electromagnetic threats

The conversation also touches on innovations to make cellular equipment user-friendly, resembling the ease of setting up a Wi-Fi router. Mentioned is a decentralized architecture that supports and extends the centralized public networks, keeping communication alive when conventional services are disrupted. Spalding discusses the development of hardened commercial cellular networks tha ...

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Building secure, resilient communication infrastructure

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Decentralized architectures extending cellular networks for emergencies involve creating communication systems where individual users can own and control their network infrastructure. This setup aims to enhance connectivity and flexibility, especially during crises like natural disasters or cyber attacks. By decentralizing the network ownership and operation, the goal is to improve resilience and ensure reliable communication services even when traditional centralized networks are disrupted. This approach leverages technologies like 5G to build a more robust and adaptable communication infrastructure.
  • The shift to software-based solutions for devices, connectivity, and computing involves moving away from traditional hardware components to using software that runs on servers. This transition reduces vulnerability by centralizing code and keeping the network local, ensuring continued operation even if parts are compromised. It aims to create more flexible and secure communication infrastructure by leveraging software to handle tasks traditionally performed by hardware. This approach allows for easier scalability, maintenance, and adaptability in communication networks.
  • Tamper detection security features are mechanisms designed to detect and respond to physical tampering or unauthorized access attempts on a device or network. These features can include sensors that trigger alerts when tampering is detected, helping to prevent unauthorized access and protect sensitive information. By incorporating tamper detection measures, secure communication systems can enhance their resilience against physical attacks and unauthorized manipulation. Such features are crucial for maintaining the integrity and security of communication networks, especially in high-security environments or during critical operations.
  • Rugged and secure communication equipment for military and civilian users typically involves devices and systems designed to withstand harsh environments, physical damage, and cyber threats. These solutions prioritize reliability, durability, and data protection to ensure seamless communication in critical situations. They often feature advanced security measures, such as tamper detection and shielding against electromagnetic interference, to safeguard sensitive information. The goal is to provide robust and dependable communication tools that meet the stringent requirements of both military operations and civilian applications.
  • Partnerships for classified communications using commercial devices involve collaborations between government agencies and private companies to enable secure communication using off-the-shelf consumer devices. These partnerships aim to leverage existing technology while ensuring robust security measures are in place to protect sensitive information. By utilizing commercial devices in classified communications, it allows for cost-effective solutions without compromising security standards. This approach enables broader access to secure communication capabilities across military and civilian sectors.
  • Smartphones with robust shielding against electromagnetic interference are designed ...

Counterarguments

  • Decentralization may introduce complexity in terms of network management and oversight, potentially leading to inconsistent service quality.
  • Private network ownership could result in a digital divide where only those who can afford it have access to secure and resilient communication.
  • The shift to software-based networks might increase exposure to software vulnerabilities and require constant updates and patches.
  • Decentralized networks could face challenges in achieving the same economies of scale as centralized systems, potentially leading to higher costs.
  • While software-based solutions offer flexibility, they may not match the performance and reliability of dedicated hardware in all scenarios.
  • Localized networks, while resilient in some respects, might be more susceptible to localized disasters without the redundancy provided by larger, centralized networks.
  • The affordability of infrastructure for community purchase is relative and may still be out of reach for the most underserved communities.
  • Hardening commercial equipment against hacking and EMP threats is a continuous arms race, and absolute security may not be achievable.
  • Tamper detection features and robust shielding add to the cost and complexity of devices, which could limit their adoption or increase consumer prices.
  • The reliance on partnerships for classified communications could introduce vulnerabilities if partners ...

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