Podcasts > Rachel Maddow Presents: Déjà News > Lawrence: New Trump docs transcripts reveal lies detailed in case's indictment

Lawrence: New Trump docs transcripts reveal lies detailed in case's indictment

By Rachel Maddow

In this episode from the Rachel Maddow Presents: Déjà News podcast, revelations emerge about dysfunction and careless document handling under the Trump administration. Transcripts reveal contradictions and lies surrounding the movement of classified boxes, as well as hints of pardons being dangled to obstruct investigations.

The Biden administration's efforts to support Black entrepreneurship and investment in underserved areas are also explored. As the 2024 election cycle kicks into gear, the episode examines Biden's active campaigning contrasted with Trump's more leisurely approach, as the Republican party faces an unprecedented rebellion against the former president's bid for re-election.

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Lawrence: New Trump docs transcripts reveal lies detailed in case's indictment

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Lawrence: New Trump docs transcripts reveal lies detailed in case's indictment

1-Page Summary

Dysfunction in the Trump administration

Records were routinely taken from the Oval Office to the residence without process, indicating careless document handling. An individual wasn't aware of Trump declassifying records besides specific cases, suggesting no standing declassification order existed. Despite multiple attempts, Trump remained noncommittal about returning records like the Kim Jong-un letters.

Walt Nauta grand jury testimony showing lies about his knowledge of boxes

While previously claiming ignorance, Nauta admitted to moving boxes before their return, contradicting earlier statements. A juror confirmed Pine Hall, where boxes were moved, wasn't secure. Nauta's testimony differed from FBI statements, suggesting lies about his awareness of moved boxes.

Trump criminal probe

Evidence of pardon dangled to obstruct investigation

According to Person 16, Nauta was told the probe was politically motivated and assured of a future 2024 pardon if charged with lying to the FBI, highlighting the precarious position of Trump associates. Weissmann notes pardons obstruct DOJ investigations and public corruption cases.

Economic policies to support Black-owned businesses

Biden administration providing capital, financial literacy, meeting specific needs

VP Harris has encouraged Black entrepreneurs to seek loans despite historical disparities, noting studies show hesitancy. She emphasizes ambition shouldn't be impeded by disparities. The administration routes funds to community banks and pushes major banks to invest in underserved areas.

2024 Election Dynamics

Haley Voters a Key Constituency in Battleground States

O'Donnell says Biden's campaign is reaching out to Nikki Haley's anti-Trump voters, who may be crucial in swing states.

Unprecedented Rebellion against Trump in Republican Party

The GOP is seeing an insurrection against Trump, with former VPs, nominee, chair, and cabinet members refusing to support his reelection bid - signaling a potential existential threat.

Contrast of Biden Active Campaigning While Trump Sticks to Golf Cart

While details aren't provided, Biden's active campaigning with allies like VP Harris contrasts Trump's more leisurely approach, often perceived as "sticking to the golf cart."

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Walt Nauta's grand jury testimony involved contradictions regarding his awareness of boxes being moved, suggesting he may have misled investigators. This testimony raised questions about his honesty and potential involvement in mishandling documents. The discrepancies between Nauta's statements and FBI findings indicate a lack of transparency in his actions. The situation underscores the importance of truthfulness and accountability in legal proceedings.
  • Nikki Haley is a prominent political figure who has garnered support from voters who are against former President Trump. These voters, known as "Haley voters," are seen as crucial in states where the election outcome is uncertain or closely contested, known as battleground states. The Biden campaign is actively reaching out to this group of voters to potentially sway the election in their favor.
  • The "Unprecedented Rebellion against Trump in Republican Party" signifies a significant number of prominent Republican figures, including former Vice Presidents, the party's nominee, chairpersons, and cabinet members, openly refusing to support Donald Trump's bid for reelection. This internal opposition within the Republican Party is notable for its scale and the high-profile individuals involved, indicating a significant break from traditional party unity. The resistance against Trump suggests a growing division within the party, with key figures distancing themselves from the former president, potentially posing a serious challenge to his political influence and the party's cohesion.

Counterarguments

  • Records management in any administration can be complex, and what may appear as careless handling could sometimes be due to the fast-paced nature of the White House operations or a different interpretation of the processes.
  • The process of declassification is often not public, and the lack of awareness of a standing declassification order does not necessarily mean it did not exist; it could indicate that the process was not widely communicated.
  • Noncommittal responses regarding the return of records could be due to ongoing legal or diplomatic considerations rather than an unwillingness to cooperate.
  • Walt Nauta's contradictory statements could be a result of misunderstanding or misremembering events rather than an intentional lie.
  • The security of Pine Hall and the handling of boxes could be subject to different interpretations of what constitutes 'secure,' and there may have been other security measures in place that are not mentioned.
  • The claim of a dangled pardon could be a misunderstanding or miscommunication rather than an attempt to obstruct justice.
  • While pardons can be seen as obstructing investigations, they are also a constitutional power of the presidency intended to correct judicial errors and offer mercy.
  • The Biden administration's efforts to support Black-owned businesses are commendable, but the effectiveness of these initiatives can be debated, and there may be alternative strategies to address economic disparities.
  • Encouraging Black entrepreneurs to seek loans is positive, but it is also important to address systemic issues within financial institutions that may contribute to hesitancy.
  • Outreach to Nikki Haley's voters by the Biden campaign could be seen as a strategic move, but it may also alienate some of Biden's base if perceived as compromising on key issues.
  • The insurrection against Trump within the GOP could be framed as a healthy democratic process where differing viewpoints are allowed, rather than an existential threat.
  • Active campaigning by Biden contrasts with Trump's approach, but a more leisurely campaign style does not necessarily equate to a lack of engagement or effectiveness in communicating with voters.

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Lawrence: New Trump docs transcripts reveal lies detailed in case's indictment

Dysfunction in the Trump administration

The indictment and recent reports highlight a pattern of dysfunctional record keeping and careless document handling within the Trump administration.

Lack of record keeping and careless document handling

Records taken from the Oval Office to the residence without process

The report points out that records were frequently taken from the Oval Office to the residence without any formal process. This indicates a lax attitude toward the handling of sensitive documents.

No standing declassification order

Furthermore, an individual referred to as Person 16, who was involved with the administration, was not aware of the former President declassifying any records other than crossfire hurricane documents and believed there was no standing order for declassification in the White House. The assertion that possibly only Person 24 would testify to the existence of such an order, while being described as "unhinged and crazy," further illustrates the chaotic approach to crucial security processes.

Person 16 discovered that certain records had yet to be returned to the National Archives, such as the Kim Jong-un letters, the Obama letter, and the hurricane map. Despite multiple attempts by various individuals, including Person 16, to persuade the former President to return the records, he remained noncommittal and questioned how they knew about the documents.

Walt Nauta grand jury testimony showing lies about his knowledge of boxes

Walt Nauta’s grand jury testimony sheds light on the disarray within Trump’s orbit concerning document security.

Knew what boxes to move despite claiming not to know contents

While Nauta previously claimed ignorance about the contents and security of certain boxes, he admitted under oath to moving boxes around before they were returned to the government, contradicting earlier statements. ...

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Dysfunction in the Trump administration

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Walt Nauta was a figure whose grand jury testimony revealed discrepancies in his statements about the handling of documents within the Trump administration. He initially claimed ignorance about certain boxes' contents and security but later admitted to moving them, suggesting a lack of adherence to document security protocols. His testimony highlighted a broader theme of mishandled documents and negligence in securing sensitive materials within Trump's orbit.
  • Pine Hall was the location where many boxes were moved to within Trump's orbit. It was revealed during Walt Nauta's grand jury testimony that Pine Hall was not a secure site, indicating a lack of proper security measures for sensit ...

Counterarguments

  • The process of taking records from the Oval Office to the residence may have been informal but not necessarily indicative of a systemic disregard for document security; it could reflect a need for flexibility in how the President works with sensitive materials.
  • The lack of a standing declassification order does not automatically equate to a chaotic approach to security processes; it could mean that declassification was handled on a case-by-case basis, which some might argue is more secure.
  • The failure to return certain records to the National Archives could be due to misunderstandings or miscommunications rather than willful noncompliance.
  • Walt Nauta's admission to moving boxes, while seemingly contradictory, might be explained by a lack of clarity in his role or responsibilities rather than a deliberate disregard for document security protocols.
  • The security of Pine Hall as a storage location might ...

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Lawrence: New Trump docs transcripts reveal lies detailed in case's indictment

Trump criminal probe

The Trump criminal investigation has surfaced allegations regarding the dangled possibility of a presidential pardon, potentially aimed at obstructing the investigation.

Evidence of pardon dangled to obstruct investigation

The narrative unfolds with Person 16 communicating that Walt Nauta was informed by Trump’s associates that the investigation was merely politically motivated, hinting at triviality. Further implications suggest that Nauta was assured of a pardon if he was charged with lying to the FBI – a promise allegedly scheduled for a future date in 2024.

Person 16 acknowledged a significant personal risk within the Trump circle for engaging in voluntary interviews with the FBI. This circumstance outlines the precarious position of insiders caught between the loyalties to their associates and the legal ramifications of their choices.

Weissmann comments on the problem this scenario poses for public corruption cases, whereby the possibility of a presidential pardon obstructs the Depa ...

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Trump criminal probe

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Person 16 is an individual involved in the Trump criminal investigation, who communicated information about a potential pardon offer. Walt Nauta was reportedly informed by Trump's associates about the investigation and the possibility of a pardon if charged with lying to the FBI. Their roles are significant in highlighting the dynamics within the Trump circle and the implications of potential pardon offers in obstructing investigations.
  • Flipping people for cooperation is a common tactic in criminal investigations where individuals facing charges are incentivized to provide information or testify against others in exchange for leniency or reduced sentences. This strategy aims to gather evidence, build stronger cases, and potentially target higher-level individuals involved in criminal activities. It can be a powerful tool for law enforcement to unravel complex criminal networks and bring perpetrators to justice. The concept underscores the importance of leveraging insider knowledge to advance investigations and hold accountable those involved in illegal activities.
  • Pardons can obstruct public corruption cases by potentially influencing witnesses or suspects to withhold information or refuse to cooperate with investigators, fearing that they may receive a pardon and escape legal consequences. This obstruction can impede the Department of Justice's ability to gather evidence and build a strong case against individuals involved in corrupt activities. The prospect of a pardon can create a conflict of interest for those close to the investigation, as they may prioritize loyalty to the individual offering the pardon over assisting with the legal process. Overall, the misuse of pardons in such cases can undermine the integrity of investigations and hinder efforts to hold accou ...

Counterarguments

  • The investigation being politically motivated does not inherently negate the validity of the allegations; however, the perception of political motivation can undermine public trust in the impartiality of the justice system.
  • The promise of a pardon, while potentially obstructive, is not in itself illegal unless it can be proven to be part of a quid pro quo or an act of obstruction of justice.
  • The personal risk faced by Person 16 could be seen as a natural consequence of being associated with potentially illegal activities, rather than a flaw in the investigative process.
  • The difficult position of insiders could be argued as a necessary tension in the justice system, which relies on individuals choosing to uphold the law over personal loyalties.
  • Weissmann's comments on the obstruction of public corruption cases by the possibility of a pardon could be countered by the argument that the pardon power is a constitutional right of the presidency, intended to act as a check on the judiciary.
  • The use of presidential pardons to hinder the Department of Justice could be defended as a legitimate exercis ...

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Lawrence: New Trump docs transcripts reveal lies detailed in case's indictment

Economic policies to support Black-owned businesses

The Biden-Harris administration is working on economic policies to aid Black-owned businesses, with Vice President Kamala Harris leading efforts to offer capital, financial literacy, and support for these entrepreneurs.

Biden administration providing capital, financial literacy, meeting specific needs

Vice President Harris has been meeting with small business owners to emphasize the availability of resources intended for their growth and development. During these engagements, she has encouraged Black entrepreneurs to apply for loans despite the historical trend where they're less likely to do so due to fear of rejection.

Harris emphasizes ambition should not be impeded by history of disparities

The commitment to support Black-owned businesses includes more than just financial assistance. Harris has reinforced that historical disparities should not hinder ambition. She has highlighted the Biden administration's efforts to route federal funds to community banks and prompt major banks to invest in communities unfamiliar to them. Furthermore, Harris has underscored the administration's pledge to heighten financial literacy to empower individuals to start and sustain businesses.

Understanding that despite national conversations, which sometimes undermine diversity, equity, and inclusion, these efforts are crucial for the nation's progress. The administration prioritizes these initiatives as a means to invest in the country's strength through acknowledgment and support of diverse communities.

Notes studies showing Black entrepreneurs less likely to seek loans

Studies have indicated that Black business owners are often less likely to seek loans than their counterparts. Harris has advised them to overcome this reluctance and utilize available resources for business support and development.

The economic strategies under the current administration have led to historically low unemployment rates among Black Americans. The administration's policies are directe ...

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Economic policies to support Black-owned businesses

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The Biden-Harris administration is working on economic policies to aid Black-owned businesses by providing capital, financial literacy, and support for growth and development. These policies aim to address historical disparities faced by Black entrepreneurs, encourage them to seek loans, and increase access to resources for business support and development. Additionally, the administration is focusing on increasing Black wealth over extended periods through initiatives that go beyond emergency economic measures. The overarching goal is to empower Black-owned businesses and communities for long-term economic growth and sustainability.
  • The economic strategies implemented by the Biden-Harris administration aim to increase Black wealth over extended periods by focusing on job creation, career progression, wealth generation, homeownership, and providing resources for life advancements. These strategies are designed to address historical disparities and empower Black entrepreneurs to access financial resources and support for business growth. The goal is to create a sustainable impact on Black wealth by fostering economic opportunities and reducing barriers to financial success. While the immediate effects of these policies may not always be immediately apparent, the long-term objective is to build lasting economic empowerment within the Black community.
  • Black entrepreneurs often face challenges in seeking loans due to historical disparities, fear of rejection, and limited access to financial resources. Studies have shown that Black business owners are less likely to apply for loans compared to their counterparts. This reluctance can stem from past discriminatory lending practices and a lack of trust in financial institutions. Efforts to address these challenges include promoting financial literacy, increasing access to capital, and encouraging Black entrepreneu ...

Counterarguments

  • The effectiveness of routing federal funds to community banks may not be sufficient if the underlying issues of systemic bias and financial literacy are not adequately addressed.
  • While the administration encourages Black entrepreneurs to apply for loans, there may still be structural barriers in the lending process that need to be reformed.
  • The focus on financial literacy is important, but it must be paired with access to opportunities and networks that have historically been less accessible to Black entrepreneurs.
  • The administration's efforts to support Black-owned businesses could be seen as not comprehensive enough if they do not include aggressive measures to combat discrimination in the marketplace.
  • The claim of historically low unemployment rates among Black Americans may not reflect underemployment or the quality of jobs available to Black workers.
  • The policies aimed at job creation and wealth generation need to be scrutinized for their actual impact on reducing the racial wealth gap.
  • The success of Black business owners in Georgia during the Trump administration might suggest that economic growth for these entrepreneurs can occur under various types of economic policies, not just those of the Biden-Harris administration.
  • Long-term efforts to increase Black wealth are important, but there may be a need for more immediate relief and support to address current economic disparities.
  • The administration's policies might benefit from a more targeted approach that addresses the specific chall ...

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Lawrence: New Trump docs transcripts reveal lies detailed in case's indictment

2024 Election Dynamics

The political landscape is rapidly evolving as the 2024 United States presidential election approaches. Notably, shifts within the Republican Party and distinct campaign strategies are characterizing the race.

Haley Voters a Key Constituency in Battleground States

Lawrence O'Donnell points out that President Joe Biden's re-election campaign is actively reaching out to voters who support Nikki Haley, indicating that they may play a crucial role as a constituency in battleground states. These Haley supporters have shown a pattern of voting against Donald Trump in Republican primaries, suggesting a possible opening for Biden's campaign to appeal to these voters in a general election.

Unprecedented Rebellion against Trump in Republican Party

Includes Former VPs, Presidential Nominee, Chair, Cabinet Members

The Republican Party is experiencing a notable insurrection against Donald Trump, with influential figures such as two former vice presidents, a former party nominee, a former party chair, and several leaders from his own administration openly refusing to support his bid for reelection. This internal rebellion presents an existential threat to Trump's candidacy, as it indicates a significant division within the party. A substantial portion of the GOP is not aligned with the MAGA movement and is uncertain about continuing to su ...

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2024 Election Dynamics

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The Republican Party is experiencing internal divisions due to a significant number of influential figures openly opposing Donald Trump's bid for reelection. This rebellion includes former vice presidents, a former party nominee, a former party chair, and members of Trump's own administration. These divisions highlight a substantial portion of the GOP that does not align with Trump's leadership and raises uncertainty about the party's future direction.
  • The MAGA movement, short for "Make America Great Again," is a political slogan associated with former President Donald Trump. It symbolizes a populist and nationalist ideology that emphasizes America-first policies, including immigration restrictions, trade protectionism, and a focus on traditional values. Supporters of the MAGA movement often advocate for anti-establishment sentiments and a rejection of political correctness. The movement has been a defining force within the Republican Party in recent years, shaping policy debates and electoral strategies.
  • Joe Biden's active campaigning strategy involves engaging with voters through events, speeches, and utilizing key political allies like Vice President Kamala Harris. On the other hand, Donald Trump's approach has been described as more leisurely, with him spending time on activities like golfing. This difference in campaign styles could impact how the public perceives the candidates and their level of ...

Counterarguments

  • Nikki Haley supporters may not be as pivotal in battleground states as suggested if their numbers are not sufficiently large or if their voting behavior is unpredictable.
  • The history of voting against Donald Trump in primaries does not necessarily predict general election behavior, as voters may align differently in a general election context.
  • The rebellion within the Republican Party could be overstated, as the voices of a few prominent figures may not reflect the broader base's support for Trump.
  • The lack of support from certain Republican figures for Trump's reelection might not pose an existential threat if Trump maintains a strong grassroots following and the loyalty of key segments of the party.
  • The GOP's lack of alignment with the MAGA movement could be a sign of healthy internal debate and diversity of thou ...

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