Podcasts > Rachel Maddow Presents: Déjà News > History in the Making

History in the Making

By Rachel Maddow

In the latest episode of "Rachel Maddow Presents: Déjà News," featuring legal experts Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord, delve into the mechanics of high-stakes legal battles in the political arena. The conversation scrutinizes the challenging roles and reputations of teams led by seasoned professionals, evaluating both defense and prosecution strategies. With the spotlight on figures like Matthew Colangelo, Susan Hoffinger, Joshua Steinglass, Todd Blanch, and Susan Necklace, the episode unpacks their diverse experience as they navigate through a complex legal maze of high-profile cases.

The episode further untangles the intricate web surrounding Michael Cohen's testimony on reimbursing hush money payments, shedding light on prosecutorial support through documented evidence and anticipated testimonies from key players such as Hope Hicks and David Pecker. As the Trump defense team throws in legal curveballs aiming to delay or dismiss the impending trial, the dialogue also explores the implications of Judge Aileen Cannon's rulings in the Mar-a-Lago documents case. Weissmann and McCord offer insightful commentary on the legal maneuvers at play and the potential steps for the Special Counsel in navigating this legal labyrinth.

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History in the Making

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History in the Making

1-Page Summary

Overview of Prosecutors and Defense Lawyers

A team of notable lawyers is involved in high-profile cases, and their reputations are pivotal to their roles. The prosecution consists of Matthew Colangelo, Susan Hoffinger, and Joshua Steinglass, each with a significant background in legal circles, known for their professionalism and effectiveness in handling high-profile cases. On the other hand, defense lawyers Todd Blanch and Susan Necklace offer a diverse mix of experience and expertise, Blanch being a former federal prosecutor now focusing on corporate defense and Necklace having transitioned from a prosecutor to a defense lawyer with a significant criminal defense record.

Scheme to Reimburse Michael Cohen for Hush Money Payments and Hide Source

Michael Cohen testifies about a scheme that aimed to reimburse him for hush money payments while obscuring the source by documenting these as legal expenses. Despite Cohen's credibility issues due to his past criminal convictions, the prosecution supports their case with extensive documented evidence, such as emails and records affirming the transactions' concealment. The issue involves more than $400,000 paid to him, substantially exceeding the initial payment made to Stephanie Clifford, with additional testimony expected from David Pecker about coordinated efforts with the media to suppress damaging information.

Witnesses, Including Cohen, Hope Hicks, Kellyanne Conway

Witnesses are expected to provide insight into the Trump campaign's concerns during the 2016 election, specifically related to the hush money payments. Hope Hicks and Kellyanne Conway, closely associated with Trump at that time, could offer important context. Additional corroboration may come from other individuals like Karen McDougal and a Trump Tower doorman, while David Pecker could substantiate details of the payment scheme.

Trump Team Efforts to Delay or Dismiss Trial

Donald Trump's defense team endeavors to delay or dismiss the trial through a series of motions concerning pretrial publicity, judge recusal, and appeals. Mary McCord and Andrew Weissmann suggest these efforts serve to preserve issues for an appeal. The defense contests Judge Marchand's involvement, files motions for pre-trial delays based on extensive publicity, and may utilize an Article 78 to spark an appeal. With the motion against judge recusal by Fannie Willis already denied, the defense is poised to continuously strategize for future appellate arguments.

Judge Cannon's Mar-a-Lago Ruling and Special Counsel's Possible Next Steps

Special Counsel Jack Smith navigates the complexities presented by Judge Aileen Cannon's ambiguous handling of pretrial motions in the Mar-a-Lago documents case. Judge Cannon has yet to provide a clear ruling on whether the Presidential Records Act could serve as a defense. Smith may be compelled to seek a decisive ruling or appeal the judge's inaction. Should Cannon avoid a ruling or delay it, Smith could potentially file for mandamus or aim for a trial deadline to expedite the process, maintaining the option to appeal to the Court of Appeals if necessary.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Hush money payments are funds paid to keep someone quiet about certain information, often to prevent damaging revelations from becoming public. The scheme to reimburse Michael Cohen involved a plan to repay him for these payments while disguising the true source of the money, making it appear as legal expenses instead. This scheme aimed to conceal the involvement of certain individuals or entities in the payments, potentially implicating them in legal or ethical violations. Michael Cohen's testimony shed light on how these transactions were orchestrated and the efforts made to hide the true nature of the payments.
  • Pretrial motions are formal requests made by parties in a legal case to ask the court to rule on specific issues before the trial begins. Judge recusal occurs when a judge voluntarily steps down from a case due to a conflict of interest or other reasons that may compromise their impartiality. Appeals are legal proceedings where a higher court reviews a lower court's decision to determine if any errors were made in the application of the law. Appeals can result in the lower court's decision being affirmed, reversed, or remanded for further proceedings.
  • Special Counsel Jack Smith is overseeing legal matters related to Judge Cannon's handling of pretrial motions in the Mar-a-Lago documents case. Smith may need to take action if Judge Cannon does not provide a clear ruling on the defense's use of the Presidential Records Act. This could involve seeking a decisive ruling, appealing the judge's inaction, filing for mandamus, or aiming for a trial deadline to expedite the process. Smith's ultimate goal is to navigate the legal complexities effectively and ensure the case progresses in a manner that aligns with the Special Counsel's objectives.

Counterarguments

  • The reputation of the prosecution team for professionalism and effectiveness does not guarantee the outcome of a case; each case has its own merits and challenges.
  • While defense lawyers Todd Blanch and Susan Necklace have diverse experience, this does not necessarily equate to a successful defense in every case.
  • Michael Cohen's testimony, despite being supported by documented evidence, may be scrutinized due to his past criminal convictions, which could affect his credibility.
  • The presence of extensive documented evidence does not preclude the possibility of alternative interpretations or the defense questioning the validity or relevance of such evidence.
  • The expected testimony from witnesses associated with the Trump campaign may not provide the clarity or insight anticipated by the prosecution, and their statements could be subject to various interpretations.
  • Efforts by Donald Trump's defense team to delay or dismiss the trial could be seen as legitimate legal strategies to ensure a fair trial, rather than merely tactics to obstruct justice.
  • The handling of pretrial motions by Judge Aileen Cannon in the Mar-a-Lago documents case may reflect the complexity of the legal issues involved rather than any deficiency on the part of the judge.

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History in the Making

Overview of Prosecutors and Defense Lawyers

The legal teams involved in high-profile cases often include well-respected and experienced lawyers on both sides.

Prosecutors: Matthew Colangelo, Susan Hoffinger, Joshua Steinglass

The prosecution team is comprised of Matthew Colangelo, Susan Hoffinger, and Joshua Steinglass, all of whom carry stellar reputations.

Matthew Colangelo has a broad range of experience, working previously in the Department of Justice before returning to the District Attorney's office approximately a year ago. His reputation in legal circles is described as stellar, indicating a high level of respect and professionalism.

Susan Hoffinger is known as a very prominent senior lawyer in the district attorney's office. She worked on the Trump Organization Criminal Tax Case and helped secure a conviction, showcasing her abilities in handling high-profile cases effectively.

Joshua Steinglass, who also had a role in the Trump Organization case, is viewed as the quintessential trial lawyer. While his background is not specifically in white-collar crime but includes murder and gang cases, he is noted for his exceptional skill in the courtroom and his ability to establish a good rapport with those present.

Defense Lawyers: Todd Blanch, Susan Necklace

The defense side includes Todd Blanch and Susan Necklace, who bring different backgrounds and expertise to the table.

Todd Blanch, a former federal prosecutor for the Southern District of New York, has shifted his focus to corporat ...

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Overview of Prosecutors and Defense Lawyers

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Susan Necklace's transition from prosecution to defense is a common career path for lawyers. Many attorneys start their careers as prosecutors before moving to defense work, bringing valuable insights from both sides of the legal system. This transition allows lawyers to gain a com ...

Counterarguments

  • While Matthew Colangelo is described as having a stellar reputation, it's important to note that reputations can be subjective and may not fully reflect an individual's ability in every case.
  • Susan Hoffinger's prominence and success in high-profile cases do not guarantee similar outcomes in all future cases, as each case has its unique challenges and variables.
  • Joshua Steinglass's exceptional skill in the courtroom, while valuable, may not necessarily translate to success in every trial, especially if he encounters a case with circumstances or legal issues outside his usual area of expertise.
  • Todd Blanch's transition to corporate defense and state court cases may bring fresh perspectives, but it could also mean a learning curve that might affect his performance compared to lawyers with more established practices in those areas.
  • Susan Necklace's experience as a criminal defense lawyer is ...

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History in the Making

Scheme to Reimburse Michael Cohen for Hush Money Payments and Hide Source

Michael Cohen testifies about a scheme to reimburse him for hush money payments while attempting to hide their true nature—allegations that have led to legal consequences and public scrutiny.

The prosecution's charges center around the falsification of business records to conceal payments. Cohen, Trump, and the Trump Organization allegedly devised a plan to record payments to Cohen as legal expenses for services he did not render.

These disguised payments significantly exceeded the original $130,000 paid to Stephanie Clifford (also known as Stormy Daniels), totaling over $400,000 after taxes. This amount was paid out over several months, deliberately obscured as legal fees to avoid drawing attention to the true purpose of the payments.

Andrew Weissmann elucidates further on the scandal by discussing the involvement of a media outlet, which coordinated with the campaign to suppress damaging information and present a misleading view of the candidate. David Pecker, potentially a crucial cooperator, is expected to testify about the details of this scheme.

But may have credibility issues due to criminal convictions as Trump fixer

Nevertheless, there are reservations regarding Michael Cohen's credibility, as his previous conviction as Trump's fixer could be used by the defense to undermine his testimony. The defense is anticipated to spotlight Cohen's criminal history to cast doubt on his reliability as a witness.

Prosecution argues extensive corroboration from documents and emails show payments

To strengthen t ...

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Scheme to Reimburse Michael Cohen for Hush Money Payments and Hide Source

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Hush money payments to Stephanie Clifford, known as Stormy Daniels, were payments made to her to keep quiet about an alleged affair she had with Donald Trump. These payments were made by Michael Cohen, Trump's former lawyer, to prevent the affair from becoming public knowledge. The payments were later revealed to be part of a scheme to reimburse Cohen for the hush money while disguising the true nature of the transactions. The total amount of these payments exceeded $400,000 and were disguised as legal expenses to conceal their actual purpose.
  • Falsification of business records involves intentionally making false entries, altering true entries, or omitting required entries in a company's records with the intent to deceive or defraud. This act is considered a crime in various jurisdictions, including New York, where it can lead to misdemeanor or felony charges depending on the severity and intent of the falsification. Prosecutions for falsifying business records often occur in the context of white-collar crimes and can involve various schemes like theft, tax evasion, or insurance fraud. The falsification of business records is a serious offense that can be part of broader criminal activities aimed at concealing illegal actions or gaining unlawful benefits.
  • David Pecker, a key figure in this context, was the CEO of American Media, Inc., which owns the National Enquirer. He is expected to testify about his involvement in coordinating with the Trump campaign to suppress damaging information and present a misleading image of the candidate. Pecker's testimony could shed light on the collaboration between the media outlet and the campaign in efforts to conceal certain details and manipulate public perception. His cooperation could provide crucial insights into the scheme to hide the true nature of payments related to hush money reimbursements.
  • Michael Cohen served as Donald Trump's personal attorney and "fixer," handling various legal matters for Trump. In 2018, Cohen pleaded guilty to multiple charges, including campaign finance violations related to hush money payments made to women who claimed to have had affairs with Trump. Cohen's guilty plea and subsequent cooperation with authorities have led to legal consequences for both him and individuals associated with the payments. Cohen's criminal history as Trump's fixer is significant in the context of his testimony and the legal proc ...

Counterarguments

  • Concerns about Michael Cohen's credibility due to his criminal history could be valid, as past dishonest behavior might affect the trustworthiness of his testimony.
  • The defense could argue that the documentation of payments as legal expenses, while potentially misleading, does not necessarily prove intent to commit fraud without clear evidence of such intent.
  • The involvement of David Pecker and his expected testimony could be challenged on the grounds of his own potential biases or motivations for cooperating with the prosecution.
  • The defense might contend that the media outlet's coordination with the campaign is not unusual in the context of media relations and does not inherently indicate wrongdoing.
  • It could be argued that the prosecution's reliance on documents and emails requires careful examination to ensure they are interpreted correctly and in context.
  • The defense may suggest alternative explanations for the payments made to Cohen, challenging the assertion that they were solely for the ...

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History in the Making

Witnesses, Including Cohen, Hope Hicks, Kellyanne Conway

The following article explores the role of key witnesses and what they potentially bring to the table regarding concerns within the Trump campaign in 2016, particularly relating to the hush money payment scheme.

Hope Hicks and Kellyanne Conway provide context on Trump campaign concerns in 2016

Despite not having specific testimony details in this chunk, Hope Hicks and Kellyanne Conway are expected to provide context on concerns within the Trump campaign during the 2016 election. Their close association with Trump during this time could shed light on the internal workings and decisions of the campaign related to the allegations of hush money payments.

Other witnesses corroborate key aspects of scheme

The narrative extends beyond Hicks and Conway with the expectation that other witnesses, including Karen McDougal and a doorman from Trump Tower, will testify. The implication is that their t ...

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Witnesses, Including Cohen, Hope Hicks, Kellyanne Conway

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The concerns within the Trump campaign in 2016 primarily revolve around allegations of a hush money payment scheme. This scheme involved payments made to individuals to keep them silent about potentially damaging stories related to Donald Trump. The specific details of these concerns are expected to be elucidated through the testimonies of key witnesses closely associated with the campaign during that time. These witnesses, including Hope Hicks, Kellyanne Conway, Karen McDougal, a doorman from Trump Tower, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen, are anticipated to provide insights that could shed light on the internal workings and decisions of the campaign in relation to the alleged hush money payments.
  • Karen McDougal and a doorman from Trump Tower are connected to the hush money payment scheme through allegations that they were involved in agreements to keep their stories about Donald Trump private. Their potential testimony could shed light on any payments they received to maintain silence about their relationships with Trump, contributing to the broader understanding of the events surrounding the hush money scanda ...

Counterarguments

  • The expectation that Hicks and Conway will provide relevant context does not guarantee that their testimonies will be conclusive or incriminating; they may not have direct knowledge of the alleged hush money payments or may not be able to provide new information.
  • The testimonies of Karen McDougal and the Trump Tower doorman may be challenged on the basis of their credibility, motivations, or the relevance of their stories to the legal issues at hand.
  • The value of David Pecker's testimony, while potentially significant, could be questioned if it relies heavily on his personal relationship with Trump or if there is ...

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History in the Making

Trump Team Efforts to Delay or Dismiss Trial

Mary McCord and Andrew Weissmann offer insights into efforts by Donald Trump's defense team to delay or outright dismiss his trial through a series of motions addressing pretrial publicity, recusal, and appeals. They stress that these efforts are likely part of a strategy aimed at preserving issues for an appeal.

The defense has made last-ditch attempts to delay the trial through requests for a gag order and asking to postpone the trial date, leveraging concerns over pre-trial publicity. With the trial date approaching, the motion to delay due to pretrial publicity has not yet been decided. Additionally, the defense has renewed a motion for the judge’s recusal.

Weissmann analyzes a particular motion for the recusal of Judge Marchand based on allegations concerning his adult daughter's conduct. He highlights the lack of a clear rationale in the defense’s reasoning that would necessitate the judge's recusal. Moreover, Weissmann points out the absence of justification for the timing of the recusal motion, suggesting that the defense might be aiming to delay the trial. Weissmann notes the legal requirement for the defense to demonstrate why the new information prompting the recusal could not have been discovered earlier; failure to do so implies a possibility that they have waived their right to object on these grounds.

Defense likely to continue barrage of motions, to preserve appellate issues

Furthermore, Weissmann touches on speculation that Trump may seek an appeal using an Article 78 proceeding, which pertains to New York State law. Jury selection's intricacies are discussed, particularly the role of jury questionnaires in high-profile cases that confront extensive pre-trial publicity.

The defense ...

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Trump Team Efforts to Delay or Dismiss Trial

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • In high-profile cases, jury questionnaires are used to gather detailed information from potential jurors before the trial begins. These questionnaires help attorneys and the court assess jurors' backgrounds, beliefs, and potential biases to ensure a fair and impartial jury selection process. The information collected can aid in identifying jurors who may have preconceived notions about the case or the parties involved. By using jury questionnaires, legal teams can make more informed decisions during the jury selection process in cases that have received significant media attention.
  • Judge McAfee's decision and the motion to recuse Fannie Willis are related to legal proceedings in Georgia. The defense team filed a motion to have Fannie Willis, the district attorney in Fulton County, Georgia, removed from the case. Judge McAfee's decision was about whether Fannie Willis should be recused from prosecuting the case involving Donald Trump.
  • To demonstrate new information prompting recusal, the defense must show why this information couldn't have been discovered earlier. Failure to provide a valid reason for the timing of the recusal motion may suggest an attempt to delay the trial. This requirement ensures that parties cannot strategically introduce last-minute reasons for recusal without a legitimate basis. It aims to prevent the misuse of recusal motions to disrupt the legal process.
  • In high-profile legal cases, tactics often involve strategic maneuvers like filing frequent motions to set the stage for potential future appeals. These actions are aimed at laying a foundation for challenging decisions made in lower courts and preserving arguments for appellate review. By engaging in these tactical moves, legal teams can delay trial proceedings and shape the narrative of the case in a way that ...

Counterarguments

  • The defense's requests for a gag order and trial postponement may be legitimate concerns about the impartiality of the jury due to pre-trial publicity, rather than mere delay tactics.
  • The timing of the recusal motion could be based on when the information about the judge's daughter became known to the defense, rather than an attempt to delay the trial.
  • The defense's failure to demonstrate why new information prompting recusal could not have been discovered earlier might be due to the complexity of the case and the volume of information to be processed, not necessarily an oversight or delay strategy.
  • An Article 78 proceeding might be a valid legal avenue for appeal if there are grounds to believe that a public official has acted in a way that is arbitrary and capricious or an abuse of discretion.
  • Jury questionnaires are a standard procedure in many trials and their use does not necessarily indicate an attempt to manipulate the jury selection process.
  • The appeal against Judge McAfee's decision not to recuse Fannie Willis could be based on genuine concerns about judicial i ...

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History in the Making

Judge Cannon's Mar-a-Lago Ruling and Special Counsel's Possible Next Steps

The discussion pivots around the potential actions Special Counsel Jack Smith might take regarding Judge Aileen Cannon's handling of pretrial motions in the Mar-a-Lago documents case. There is an emphasis on the procedural steps and legal strategies available to Smith should Judge Cannon avoid a clear ruling.

Judge Cannon skirts clear finding on whether Presidential Records Act could provide defense

McCord reflects that Judge Cannon has not made a definitive ruling on whether the Presidential Records Act (PRA) could serve as a defense for the possession of documents at Mar-a-Lago. This leaves Smith in need of a clear judicial determination.

Smith could press judge for definitive ruling; if not, could appeal failure to rule

Smith requires a firm resolution on the motion related to the PRA, and if that is not forthcoming, he may appeal the judge's failure to rule. McCord notes that, per Rule 12D of federal criminal procedure, a court is mandated to decide on every pretrial motion before the trial, barring a good reason to defer a ruling. The possibility of Judge Cannon avoiding a ruling raises concerns for Smith’s right to appeal.

In a scenario where Judge Cannon does rule against the motion, Smith could appeal the decision to the Eleventh Circuit, challenging it as a clear and indisputable error necessitating correction to prevent a failed prosecution.

Alternatively, if Cannon does not issue a ruling on the motion, Smith has the option to file for mandamus—a legal maneuver compelling a government official to perform their official duties or rectify an abuse of discretion. McCord indicates that in the absence of a decision from Judge Cannon, Smith cou ...

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Judge Cannon's Mar-a-Lago Ruling and Special Counsel's Possible Next Steps

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • A special counsel, like Jack Smith in this context, is a lawyer appointed to handle cases where there is a conflict of interest for the usual prosecuting authority. They investigate and potentially prosecute cases of suspected wrongdoing, especially those involving high-ranking officials or sensitive matters. Special counsels are appointed to ensure impartiality and independence in the legal process, often dealing with cases that regular prosecutors may be unable to handle objectively. The role of a special counsel is crucial in maintaining public trust and ensuring justice in cases where traditional legal channels may present conflicts or challenges.
  • Judge Aileen Cannon is a United States district judge in the Southern District of Florida, appointed in 2020. She has presided over notable cases involving former President Donald Trump, including matters related to materials seized from Mar-a-Lago. Cannon's decisions and handling of cases have drawn attention from legal experts and the public.
  • The Mar-a-Lago documents case involves legal proceedings related to the possession of documents at Mar-a-Lago, a private club owned by former President Donald Trump. The case centers on whether the Presidential Records Act could serve as a defense for the possession of these documents and the legal implications surrounding this issue. Special Counsel Jack Smith is involved in the case and is seeking a clear judicial determination on this matter, potentially through various legal strategies such as appealing a judge's ruling or filing for mandamus.
  • The Presidential Records Act (PRA) is a U.S. law that governs the official records of Presidents and Vice Presidents created or received after January 20, 1981. It mandates the preservation of these records and establishes rules for their management and public access. The PRA was enacted in 1978 to ensure that presidential records are considered public property and are preserved for historical and governmental transparency purposes. It outlines the responsibilities of the President in managing these records and the role of the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) in their custody and control.
  • A writ of mandamus is a court order that compels a government official to perform a duty required by law or prevents them from taking an action prohibited by law. It is used when an official fails to act as legally required or takes a prohibited action. The party seeking a writ of mandamus must demonstrate a legal right to enforce the action and show that the duty is public and mandatory, not discretionary. Mandamus is not typically granted if other remedies, like appeals, can provide adequate relief.
  • The Eleventh Circuit is a federal court of appeals in the United States that covers the states of Alabama, Florida, and Georgia. It is one of the 13 appellate courts that sit below the Supreme Court in the federal judiciary system. The Eleventh Circuit reviews decisions made by district courts within its jurisdiction, including cases related to federal law and constitutional issues. It plays a crucial role in interpr ...

Counterarguments

  • The Presidential Records Act (PRA) is complex, and there may be legitimate legal ambiguities that prevent Judge Cannon from making a swift, definitive ruling.
  • Judge Cannon may be exercising judicial caution in a high-profile case, ensuring that all arguments are thoroughly considered before making a ruling.
  • The appeal process is a standard part of the legal system, and an appeal by Smith does not necessarily indicate a failure on Judge Cannon's part to properly adjudicate the case.
  • Filing for mandamus is an extraordinary remedy and suggests that normal judicial processes are not functioning correctly, which may not be the case here.
  • Setting a court deadline for issuing a ruling could be seen as an undue pressure on the judicial process, potentially undermining the independence of the judiciary.
  • The suggestion that Judge Cannon's failure to rule is akin to issuing a directed verdict may not take into account the complexity of the legal issues involved or the need for additional time to consider the motions properly.
  • The idea of ...

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