#911 - Louise Perry - Has Modern Society Set Women Up For Failure?
In this episode of the Modern Wisdom podcast, guest Louise Perry and the hosts explore the societal implications of declining birth rates. The discussion touches on concerns over fewer future caregivers for aging populations and potential shortages of workers needed to sustain economic growth and maintain infrastructure for modern medicine.
Perry also delves into challenges faced by women pursuing relationships and careers, including the high standards of high-achieving women when selecting partners, the impact of sex work on future relationships and career prospects, and how personality traits may influence the decision to have children. The group further examines how evolving social norms and gender roles impact family dynamics and child-rearing in modern society.
This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the Mar 6, 2025 episode of the Modern Wisdom
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1-Page Summary
Declining Birth Rates and Their Societal Consequences
Fewer People to Support Aging Populations and Growth
Louise Perry suggests delayed milestones like home ownership contribute to later family formation. Carl Benjamin argues declining births mean fewer future caregivers for the elderly. Chris Williamson adds that economic growth requires new workers to replace retirees.
Concerns About Children's Exposure to the Sex Industry
Perry raises concerns about children potentially being taken from mothers involved in sex work due to exposure to clients, especially with at-home camming.
Shifts From Modernity May Hinder Advanced Medical Capabilities
Perry fears declining births among non-technological groups could lead to a complex future lacking infrastructure for advanced medicine relied upon by modern societies. She stresses her survival during childbirth depended on modern medical interventions like C-sections.
Challenges Faced by Women in Relationships and Careers
High-Achieving Women Have Selective Standards For Mates
Williamson notes accomplished women's self-sufficiency leads them to be highly selective of partners who meet stringent standards. Perry adds high-earning women prefer partners making at least as much.
Sex Work History Impacts Finding a Committed Partner
Perry compares having an OnlyFans history to a criminal record's effect on relationships. She likens sex work's psychological toll to experiencing abuse, damaging self-worth and relationship prospects.
Women Earn Well Short Term but Struggle With Long-Term Relationships and Careers
Though sex work offers high hourly pay, Perry says earnings are often spent impulsively. Reputational risks from OnlyFans can outweigh pay, harming women's future relationships and careers.
Gender, Personality, Social Norms in Relationships
Boys' Hyperactivity Clashes With Educational Norms
Perry argues young boys' energetic natures often lead to overdiagnosis of ADHD, since classroom demands for sitting quietly contradict their inherent behavior.
Neurotic Traits May Discourage People From Having Children
Perry speculates neuroticism, more common in women, and environmental worries may discourage having kids due to the overwhelming responsibility child-rearing demands.
Witnessing Loved Ones as Parents Inspires Desire
Williamson notes holding a newborn family member evoked a feeling of meaning. Perry acknowledges the "mimetic desire" effect of being surrounded by parenting friends and relatives inspires having children.
Difficulties Transitioning To Traditional Living in Modern Society
Coordinating Multi-Generational Living Without Strong Family Ties Is Challenging
Perry highlights challenges coordinating multi-generational cohabitation among non-family due to lack of kin investment and community-oriented environment.
Urban Attempts to Recreate Traditional Lifestyles Often Fail
Williamson and Perry discuss how efforts by friends to live pastoral "frontier" communal lifestyles in cities like Austin failed despite resources, contrasting the romanticized ideal with harsh realities.
1-Page Summary
Additional Materials
Clarifications
- Children potentially being taken from mothers involved in sex work can be a concern due to societal judgments and misconceptions about the ability of sex workers to parent effectively. There are fears that the nature of the work, such as exposure to clients, could lead to child protection services intervening, especially in cases like at-home camming. This issue raises questions about how society views and supports individuals engaged in sex work who are also parents, highlighting the complexities and challenges they may face in balancing their work and family life.
- Declining births among non-technological groups may result in a smaller workforce to support and advance medical infrastructure. This could lead to challenges in maintaining and developing sophisticated medical technologies and services. A reduced population growth rate may strain healthcare systems and limit the resources available for medical research and innovation. In the long term, a declining population could impact the sustainability and advancement of healthcare systems in societies.
- High-earning women often seek partners who have similar or higher income levels due to factors like shared lifestyle expectations and financial compatibility. This preference can stem from a desire for balance in the relationship and to avoid potential conflicts related to financial disparities. It can also be influenced by societal norms and expectations regarding gender roles and financial contributions within a partnership. Overall, the idea is that financial equality or parity can contribute to a more harmonious and balanced relationship dynamic for some high-earning women.
- Sex work can have a significant impact on an individual's mental health and self-esteem due to societal stigma and judgment. Engaging in sex work may lead to feelings of shame, guilt, and low self-worth, affecting one's confidence and relationships. The nature of the work, which involves intimate interactions for financial gain, can create emotional challenges and strain personal connections. Over time, these psychological effects can influence how sex workers view themselves and navigate their relationships both personally and professionally.
- Earnings from sex work can be spent impulsively due to the nature of the industry and the stigma associated with it. This impulsive spending can lead to financial instability and challenges in managing money effectively. Such financial decisions can impact future relationships and careers, as they may contribute to difficulties in building long-term stability and trust. The immediate financial gains from sex work may not always align with sustainable financial planning for the future.
- Boys' energetic natures can sometimes be misinterpreted as symptoms of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) due to societal expectations for them to sit quietly in classrooms. This can lead to overdiagnosis and potentially unnecessary medical interventions. It's important to consider individual differences in behavior and not pathologize normal variations in energy levels. Understanding and accommodating diverse learning styles and behaviors can help prevent misdiagnosis and ensure appropriate support for children.
- Neuroticism, a personality trait characterized by emotional instability and negative thinking, can lead individuals to worry excessively about various aspects of life, including the challenges and responsibilities of raising children. Environmental worries, such as concerns about the state of the world, climate change, or societal issues, can also contribute to individuals feeling hesitant or anxious about bringing children into an uncertain future. These factors, when combined, may create a sense of apprehension or reluctance towards starting a family due to the perceived stress and uncertainties associated with parenting in today's world.
- Coordinating multi-generational living without strong family ties is challenging because it requires close relationships and mutual support typically found within traditional family structures. In such arrangements, different generations live together and share responsibilities, which can be difficult to establish without a strong sense of familial connection. This setup often relies on a deep understanding of each other's needs and roles within the household, which can be complex to navigate without a strong foundation of family bonds. Without these strong ties, coordinating daily activities, decision-making, and resolving conflicts among multiple generations can be more challenging.
Counterarguments
- Economic growth can also be sustained through increased productivity and innovation, not just an expanding workforce.
- Some societies with declining birth rates have successfully implemented policies to support aging populations, such as increased automation and immigration.
- The sex industry and its impact on children and family life are complex issues, and there are arguments that better regulation and support systems could mitigate potential harms.
- Advanced medical capabilities may not necessarily decline with lower birth rates if investments in technology and training are maintained or increased.
- Some argue that high-achieving women's selectivity in partners is a rational response to changing gender dynamics and economic independence.
- There are perspectives that suggest sex work should not carry a stigma and that society should work towards destigmatizing this profession to reduce negative impacts on personal relationships and career opportunities.
- The overdiagnosis of ADHD in boys could be addressed by adapting educational environments to better accommodate different learning styles and behaviors.
- While neuroticism and environmental concerns might discourage some from having children, others may see these challenges as reasons to raise environmentally conscious and resilient offspring.
- Multi-generational living can be successful with proper communication and shared values, even among non-family members.
- Urban communities have successfully created sustainable and fulfilling communal lifestyles, suggesting that failures are not inherent to the concept but may be due to other factors such as execution or external pressures.
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Declining Birth Rates and Their Societal Consequences
Louise Perry and others engage in a profound discussion about the declining birth rates and the rippling effects this trend may have on society.
Plummeting Fertility Rates Pose Challenges for Future Generations
Fewer People to Support Aging Populations and Growth
Louise Perry proposes that the post-war baby boom occurred partly because men returning from military service had demonstrated their reliability and suitability as fathers, whereas modern conditions make it harder for young men to signal such qualities. Factors like the difficulty of buying property and extended adolescence due to university attendance delay important life milestones, contributing to later family formation and potentially declining birth rates.
Carl Benjamin argues that individuals have a duty to reproduce to contribute to the pool of people that will care for the elderly in the future. Chris Williamson adds that a younger generation is needed to maintain the GDP once the older generation retires, suggesting that as birth rates decline, so might a country's economic future.
Intervention by Social Services For Sex Worker Parents
Concerns About Children's Exposure to the Sex Industry
Louise Perry brings attention to the concern that children might be taken away from mothers involved in prostitution. Social services are usually concerned about children being exposed to clients, especially when mothers work from home camming. Perry debates the complexities involved in protecting children from exposure to the sex industry within these contexts.
Worrisome Long-Term Effects of Declining Birth Rates on Technology, Medicine, and Infrastructure
Shifts From Modernity May Hinder Advanced Medical Capabilities
In the broader conversation about declining birth rates, Louise Perry fears modernity could be at risk. High fertility rates among groups like the Amish, who do not wholl ...
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Declining Birth Rates and Their Societal Consequences
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Clarifications
- The post-war baby boom occurred partly because men returning from military service were seen as reliable and suitable fathers due to their wartime experiences, which influenced societal norms and expectations around family life and parenthood during that period. This perception of returning soldiers as capable providers and protectors contributed to a cultural emphasis on family and child-rearing, leading to a significant increase in birth rates following the end of World War II.
- Extended adolescence due to university attendance delaying important life milestones is a concept that suggests young adults are spending more time in education, which can postpone traditional markers of adulthood such as starting a career, getting married, or having children. This delay in reaching typical life milestones is often attributed to the increasing emphasis on higher education and the pursuit of advanced degrees, which can extend the period of transition from adolescence to full-fledged adulthood. This phenomenon can impact societal norms around when individuals are expected to take on adult responsibilities and roles, influencing trends in family formation and birth rates. The idea is that as young people spend more time in university and delay entering the workforce, they may also postpone starting families, contributing to declining birth rates in some societies.
- The idea that individuals have a duty to reproduce to care for the elderly and maintain GDP is based on the concept that a growing population can support the increasing number of elderly individuals who require care and contribute to economic productivity. This perspective suggests that declining birth rates could lead to challenges in providing sufficient support for aging populations and sustaining economic growth in the long term. It emphasizes the intergenerational balance needed for a society to function effectively and highlights the potential consequences of a shrinking workforce and consumer base on various aspects of societal well-being.
- In some cases, when mothers are involved in prostitution, there are concerns that their children may be taken away by social services due to the potential risks and harm associated with the sex industry. This issue arises from worries about the well-being and safety of children who may be exposed to the activities and environments related to their mothers' work in the sex industry. Social services may intervene to protect children from being exposed to clients or other aspects of the sex industry that could be harmful or inappropriate for their well-being.
- The potential long-term effects of declining birth rates on technology, medicine, and infrastructure suggest challenges in sustaining advanced medical ...
Counterarguments
- The idea that modern conditions make it harder for young men to signal reliability and suitability as fathers could be challenged by pointing out that contemporary markers of reliability, such as emotional intelligence, educational attainment, and career stability, are increasingly valued in modern societies.
- The duty to reproduce for the sake of supporting the elderly and maintaining GDP could be countered by suggesting that immigration and policies that support the integration of immigrants could also help mitigate the effects of an aging population.
- The concern about children of sex workers being exposed to the industry might be met with the argument that with proper regulation and support systems, sex workers can maintain a healthy separation between their professional and personal lives, ensuring the well-being of their children.
- The worry about the long-term effects of declining birth rates on technology and medicine could be countered by pointing out that innovation is not solely dependent on population size but also on education, investment in research and development, and international collaboration.
- The uncertainty about whether groups with high fertility rates could maintain advanced medical infrastructure might be challenged by the idea that technological and medical advancements can be adopted and sustained by a variety of cultural groups, not just th ...
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Challenges Faced by Women in Relationships and Careers
Experts discuss the complex challenges women face in balancing socio-economic success with finding suitable partners and the potential negative impacts of participation in the sex industry on marriage prospects and long-term reputation.
Women's Success in Education and Careers Limits Finding Partners
High-Achieving Women Have Selective Standards For Mates
Chris Williamson acknowledges the achievements of women in education, noting their success in conscientiousness and long-term planning. He suggests that these women's competence in self-care can lead to higher standards in selecting a partner, limiting their options. Louise Perry adds that women in their 20s often earn more than men, which can create complications since many women prefer partners who earn at least as much as they do. Perry also recalls the "Princeton mom" advising Princeton women to prioritize finding a partner in college.
Williamson and Perry note that well-educated, high-earning women tend to find their male peers immature, thus they may opt for dating older men. As women increasingly succeed in education and career, their desire for a partner who surpasses their own achievements does not diminish; rather, it intensifies.
Perry points out the difficulty for career-successful women to find a spouse that fits into their firmly structured lives. As these women establish their lives and personal preferences, suitable partners become harder to find because potential mates must meet specific and stringent criteria.
Sex Industry Involvement Can Harm Women's Marriage Prospects
Sex Work History Impacts Finding a Committed Partner
Perry compares the impact of having a history with OnlyFans to a criminal record regarding its effect on the marriage market. Discussing Lily Phillips and her sex industry experience, Perry reflects on Phillips’ expressed feelings of vulnerability and judgment.
Perry likens the psychological impact of prostitution to enduring an abusive relationship with hundreds of men, thus harming women's self-worth and increasing the difficulty of finding a committed partner. The long-term risks of being on OnlyFans might affect a woman's future, particularly in her ability to find a lasting relationship.
Sex Work's Financial Gains May Be Offset by Long-Term Reputational Costs
Women Earn Well Short Term but Struggle With Long-Term Relationships and Careers
A ...
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Challenges Faced by Women in Relationships and Careers
Additional Materials
Counterarguments
- High-achieving women may not necessarily have selective standards due to their success; some may prioritize other qualities in a partner beyond financial status.
- The perception that well-educated, high-earning women find their male peers immature is a generalization and may not reflect the attitudes of all such women.
- Successful women may indeed find partners who appreciate and fit into their structured lives, as there are individuals who value and seek out partners with clear goals and stability.
- Involvement in the sex industry does not universally harm women's marriage prospects, as societal attitudes towards sex work are changing and becoming more accepting in some circles.
- A history in the sex industry, such as OnlyFans, does not necessarily impact a woman's ability to find a committed partner, as attitudes towards sex work can vary greatly among individuals.
- Psychological harm from sex work is not an inevitable outcome for all individuals; some may have positive experiences and maintain a healthy sense of self-worth.
- There are examples of individuals who have transitioned from sex work to successful long-term relationships and careers, challenging the idea that sex work universally leads to struggles in these areas.
- Financial management and spending habits are personal and can vary among individuals in sex work, with some being financially savvy and investing their earnings wisely.
- The reput ...
Actionables
- You can explore alternative avenues for financial independence that align with long-term career goals by researching and investing in financial literacy courses or resources. This approach helps to build a stable financial foundation without the potential negative repercussions associated with certain industries. For example, you might start by setting aside a portion of your income to invest in a diversified portfolio or take an online course on personal finance management.
- You can foster relationships based on shared values and mutual respect by participating in community groups or online forums that focus on personal development and professional growth. Engaging in these spaces allows you to meet potential partners who appreciate ambition and success without the constraints of traditional dating norms. For instance, join a professional networking group or a book club that focuses on leadership and self-improvement, where you can connect with like-minded individuals.
- You can s ...
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Gender, Personality, Social Norms in Relationships
Louise Perry, along with the conversation, delves into how gender differences, personality traits, and social influences shape behaviors and attitudes within relationships, particularly concerning parenting and educational systems.
Biological and Behavioral Differences Between Genders
Boys' Hyperactivity Clashes With Educational Norms
Louise Perry raises concerns about the natural tendencies of little boys to be energetic and rambunctious. She observes that such behaviors, akin to symptoms of ADHD, lead to boys being diagnosed and medicated for ADHD more frequently than girls. This, she argues, points towards modern education systems not being adaptable to boys' inherent nature, which does not align well with the demands of sitting quietly in school.
Neurotic Traits May Discourage People From Having Children
Perry speculates that the trait of neuroticism, along with environmental worries such as climate change, might discourage individuals from having children. Notably, women tend to be more neurotic than men, especially in their roles as mothers, connected with the immense responsibility of caring for young children. She admits that having many young children close together would be a challenge for her due to her neurotic nature, which inclines her towards excessive supervision and a need for order.
Additionally, Perry touches upon the emotional side of pet ownership, suggesting that it often serves as an emotive stand-in for the parent-child relationship. She likens this to emotional pornography, as it mimics the nurturing instincts typically directed towards children.
Mimetic Desire and Social Influence on Childbearing Decisions
Witnessing Loved Ones as Parents Inspires Desire
The discussion encompasses the concept of mimetic desire, highlighting how witnessing friends and relatives parenting can intensify one's yearning to ...
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Gender, Personality, Social Norms in Relationships
Additional Materials
Counterarguments
- Boys' hyperactivity might not be inherently at odds with educational norms, but rather, the educational system may need to adapt to accommodate different learning styles and energy levels.
- Neurotic traits could also lead to more conscientious and attentive parenting, rather than discouraging childbearing altogether.
- Emotional attachment to pets might not necessarily be a substitute for parenting but could complement the human need for nurturing and caregiving.
- Mimetic desire could be influenced by a variety of factors beyond witnessing parenting, such as cultural narratives, media representation, and personal values.
- The motivation to start a family may not solely depend on being surrounded by parenting friends or relatives but could also be influenced by personal goals, financial stability, and individual readiness.
- Societal norms and expectations are not the only factors that influence the decision to have children; personal choice, biological factors, and economic conditions al ...
Actionables
- You can reflect on your own educational experiences to better understand children's behavior by journaling about times when you felt out of place in school and how it affected your behavior. This can help you empathize with children who might be struggling in similar ways and consider alternative support methods beyond medication.
- Explore the emotional benefits of pet ownership by volunteering at a local animal shelter or fostering a pet temporarily. This experience can give you a firsthand understanding of the attachment that can form with animals and how it might fulfill certain emotional needs.
- Engage in conversations with friends or family members who have children to gain insi ...
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Difficulties Transitioning To Traditional Living in Modern Society
In modern society, many seek to return to a more traditional way of life, but this transition presents significant challenges, particularly when it comes to coordinating multi-generational living and recreating pastoral living in an urban environment.
Coordinating Multi-Generational Living Without Strong Family Ties Is Challenging
Perry highlights the challenges of creating a multi-generational living environment among individuals who aren't biologically related. She discusses the coordination issues involved, such as those seen in homeschooling, where the lack of an extended kin network or a walkable community-oriented environment makes it tough to find day-time peers for children. While genetic relationships bring an inherent investment, chosen communities lack this, as members are conscious of the option to leave, resulting in less overall commitment.
Chosen Communities Lack the Cohesion of Biologically-Related Groups
The commitment difficulty is further explained by Perry, who notes that chosen relationships, such as those in communes or shared living arrangements, fundamentally differ from blood ties as they often allow an inherent option of opting out. In contrast, biologically related groups might be genetically vested in each other and less likely to abandon their family unit.
Urban Attempts to Recreate Traditional Lifestyles Often Fail
Williamson and Perry explore the difficulties of transitioning to a traditional lifestyle, pointing out the romanticization of frontier life and its underlying challenges. They share examples such as friends in Austin, Texas, who, despite having the necessary resources, found that coordinating a traditional communal lifestyle was impractical. The romanticized selective nature of opting into such a lifestyle starkly contrasts with the necessity and lack of choice that characterizes true traditional living.
Perry also discusses the experience of a friend in London who effectively manages a multi- ...
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Difficulties Transitioning To Traditional Living in Modern Society
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Clarifications
- In chosen communities, coordinating multi-generational living can be challenging due to the lack of inherent familial ties, which typically provide a strong foundation for support and commitment. Unlike biological families, chosen communities may face difficulties in maintaining cohesion and long-term dedication among members. The option to leave chosen communities can lead to less overall commitment compared to traditional family units. Coordinating multi-generational living in chosen communities often requires intentional efforts to establish and maintain relationships and support structures.
- Recreating traditional lifestyles in urban environments poses challenges due to the mismatch between modern urban settings and traditional living practices. Factors like limited space, differing community dynamics, and the fast-paced nature of urban life can make it difficult to establish the close-knit, multi-generational living arrangements typical of traditional settings. The romanticized idea of traditional living often clashes with the practicalities of urban living, where individualistic lifestyles and the lack of shared responsibilities can hinder efforts to recreate traditional communal structures. Successful adaptation to traditional living in urban areas requires significant effort, coordination, and a willingness to navigate the complexities of modern urban living while trying to incorporate traditional values and practices.
- The clash between modern life and idealized pastoral living highlights the tension between the romanticized view of t ...
Counterarguments
- Chosen communities can develop strong ties over time, with commitment levels that may rival those of biological families, especially when founded on shared values and goals.
- Urban environments can successfully integrate elements of traditional living through community gardens, co-housing, and other collaborative initiatives that foster a sense of shared responsibility and connection.
- The challenges of coordinating multi-generational living are not unique to modern society; traditional societies also faced conflicts and coordination issues, which were often resolved through cultural norms and practices that can be adapted to modern contexts.
- The romanticization of traditional lifestyles does not necessarily lead to failure; it can inspire individuals to seek sustainable living practices and community engagement, leading to successful adaptations of traditional principles in modern settings.
- Modern technology ...
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