#422 — Zionism & Jihadism
In this episode of Making Sense, Sam Harris and Haviv Rettig Gur explore key aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including Israel's military capabilities and its strategic operations against Iran. The discussion covers Israel's advanced missile technology and military strategies, as well as the theological and historical factors that shape the ongoing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.
The conversation examines current challenges in Gaza, including Hamas's tunnel system and the difficulties of delivering humanitarian aid. Harris and Gur also address the feasibility of a two-state solution, analyzing recent polling data that reveals deep mistrust between both sides, and discussing how security concerns and political obstacles continue to affect peace prospects in the region.
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Israel's Military Capabilities and Strategic Position
In a discussion between Sam Harris and Haviv Rettig Gur, Israel's military capabilities and strategic operations against Iran are examined in detail. Gur explains that Israel has developed advanced missile technology that extends the range and precision of their air force jets, including modified F-35s carrying non-standard wing-mounted missiles.
According to Gur, Israel has successfully exploited Iran's internal divisions, targeting key figures in leadership and military positions. Their operations have included precision strikes against IRGC leadership and the infiltration of nuclear site supply chains, demonstrating both Israel's military prowess and Iran's vulnerabilities.
The Roots of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
The discussion delves into the theological underpinnings of the conflict. Gur explains that 19th-century Muslim theologians, responding to the decline of Muslim geopolitical power, advocated for a return to religious orthodoxy as a path to renewed strength. This theological perspective continues to influence current conflicts, with Hamas viewing their struggle against Israel as part of a larger narrative about Islam's return to prominence.
Harris emphasizes that the conflict is complicated by incompatible historical narratives between Jews and Palestinians, while Gur points out that 80% of Palestinians believe in a conspiracy theory about Jews planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa shrine.
Situation in Gaza and Israel's Military Approach
Gur describes Israel's shift from traditional military strategies to a more targeted approach, using frequent incursions rather than prolonged occupation. He explains that Hamas's extensive tunnel system beneath Gaza City forces attacking forces through densely populated areas, leading to civilian casualties.
The conversation addresses accusations of war crimes, with former Israeli Prime Minister Olmert publicly criticizing the current government's approach. Gur discusses Israel's challenge in separating humanitarian aid from Hamas control while maintaining international support.
The Feasibility and Challenges of a Two-state Solution
Recent polls cited by Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki reveal deep mistrust on both sides, with approximately 90% of both Israelis and Palestinians believing the other side seeks their destruction. Gur notes that while many Israelis have historically supported land swaps for peace, security concerns and political obstacles continue to hinder progress toward a two-state solution.
Prime Minister Netanyahu's policies reflect widespread Israeli security concerns, particularly regarding Hamas's potential strengthening following hostage negotiations. These security considerations, combined with the erosion of confidence from past peace attempts, have made the prospect of a two-state solution increasingly challenging.
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Counterarguments
- Advanced missile technology and modified F-35s may escalate regional arms races, prompting neighboring countries to seek similar capabilities, potentially destabilizing the region.
- Targeting Iran's internal divisions and leadership could be seen as an act of aggression and may lead to retaliation, further inflaming tensions between the two nations.
- The theological roots of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are complex and multifaceted, and not all factions view the conflict through a purely religious lens; some argue for more secular or nationalist motivations.
- The historical narratives between Jews and Palestinians are indeed incompatible, but some argue that emphasizing these differences overlooks the potential for common ground and shared interests that could lead to peace.
- The belief in a conspiracy about the Al-Aqsa shrine may be widespread, but focusing on this could overshadow the legitimate concerns and grievances held by many Palestinians.
- Israel's targeted military approach in Gaza may reduce the duration of conflict but does not necessarily address the root causes of the conflict or lead to a long-term solution.
- Civilian casualties in Gaza are a significant humanitarian concern, and some argue that any military strategy resulting in civilian deaths is unacceptable.
- Criticism from former leaders like Olmert may reflect a broader debate within Israel about the ethics and effectiveness of its military strategies.
- The challenge of separating humanitarian aid from Hamas control is complex, and some argue that a different approach to engaging with Gaza might be necessary to improve the humanitarian situation.
- The belief in mutual destruction may be high among Israelis and Palestinians, but there are also voices on both sides advocating for peace and coexistence that are not always represented in polls.
- While security concerns are a significant obstacle to a two-state solution, some argue that a lack of political will and failure to engage in genuine dialogue are equally to blame.
- Netanyahu's policies may reflect security concerns, but critics argue that they also entrench the status quo and hinder the peace process.
- The erosion of confidence from past peace attempts is a challenge, but some argue that this should be an impetus for more creative and determined peace efforts rather than a reason to abandon the two-state solution.
Actionables
- You can deepen your understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by reading books from both Israeli and Palestinian authors to gain a balanced perspective on the historical narratives. By exposing yourself to both sides of the story, you'll be better equipped to understand the complexities and nuances that contribute to the ongoing tensions. For example, you could read "My Promised Land" by Ari Shavit and "Palestinian Walks" by Raja Shehadeh.
- Enhance your critical thinking skills by researching and debunking common conspiracy theories related to the conflict, such as the one about the Al-Aqsa shrine. Start by looking for credible sources that explain the origins and implications of these theories. Then, practice articulating why these beliefs are unfounded by writing a blog post or discussing with friends, which can help you better understand the power of narratives in shaping public opinion.
- Foster empathy and understanding by engaging in virtual exchanges with individuals from conflict regions. Platforms like Soliya or Shared_Studios offer opportunities to have conversations with people from different backgrounds, including Israelis and Palestinians. Through these dialogues, you can gain firsthand insights into the human aspect of the conflict, which often gets overshadowed by political rhetoric.
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Israel's Military Capabilities and Strategic Position
In light of recent events, Sam Harris and Haviv Rettig Gur discuss Israel’s strategic operations and military capabilities, particularly in regard to Iran.
Israel Showcases Military Skill and Innovation In Striking Iran's Targets
Israel has taken a strategic military initiative, with Sam Harris referring to recent military action against targets in Iran. This operation was part of a long-term plan, showcasing Israel’s military prowess and innovation.
Israel Has Advanced Missile Technology Extending Range and Precision For Air Force Jets
Israel has developed advanced missile technology capable of increasing range and precision for its air force jets. Haviv Rettig Gur cites that Israel has created missiles for their planes that can follow a ballistic trajectory, going up higher and then gliding down to hit targets more precisely and at faster speeds. Additionally, Israeli F-35s have been modified to carry missiles on their wings, a non-standard adaptation to these aircraft.
Israel Exploits Iran's Internal Divisions, Targeting Key Figures in Leadership and Military
Haviv Rettig Gur delves into the intricacies of Israel’s operations, which include exploiting Iran's internal divisions and discontent to enact targeted strikes. Israel's intelligence operations are highlighted, along with an unprecedented integration of drones and missiles into their capabilities. Gur describes an operation where Israeli intelligence engineered a meeting of top commanders of the IRGC Air Force and subsequently bombed that meeting.
Israel targeted and removed key figures including the chief of staff of the IRGC, his replacement, almost the entire leadership of the IRGC Air Force, and many military advisors and people close to the supreme leader. By targeting critical elements of Iran's military operations and leadership, Israel has exhibited its strategic precision and ability to act upon vulnerabilities within the Iranian regime.
Israel's Military Strength Highlights Iran Regime's Incompetence and Vulnerability
Gur portrays the extent of Israel's strategic operations, including the infiltration of the supply chain of a nuclear site's furniture in Iran. These actions, coupled with the targeted strikes, ...
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Israel's Military Capabilities and Strategic Position
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Counterarguments
- The effectiveness of military action in achieving long-term strategic goals, such as regime change, is debatable and historically has had mixed results.
- Military prowess does not necessarily translate into political stability or resolution of underlying conflicts.
- Targeting key figures can sometimes lead to unintended consequences, such as the emergence of more radical leaders or further destabilization.
- The portrayal of the Iranian regime as incompetent may overlook the complexities of Iran's political and military structures and their resilience.
- The focus on military solutions may overshadow the potential for diplomatic approaches to resolve tensions between Israel and Iran.
- The use of targeted strikes and assassinations raises ethical and legal questions under international law.
- The impact of such military actions on civilian populations and the potential f ...
Actionables
- You can enhance your problem-solving skills by practicing precision targeting in video games that require strategic planning and execution. For example, playing games like chess or tactical shooters can help you understand the importance of focusing on critical elements to achieve a goal, similar to how a military operation might target key assets.
- Improve your negotiation tactics by learning about and leveraging the internal divisions within a group. This could involve playing board games like Diplomacy or Settlers of Catan, where you must form and break alliances, understand the dynamics within the group, and use that knowledge to your advantage.
- Empower yourself to make informed decisio ...
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The Roots of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
The conversation between Harris, Gur, and others delves into the nuanced and deep-seated origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, highlighting theological and ideological aspects that contribute to the complexity of this enduring crisis.
Theological and Ideological Conflicts: Islam's Decline and Reclamation
Harris introduces the topic by alluding to the moral asymmetries inherent in Israel's status as a country in conflict with its enemies. He acknowledges the moral confusion and upside-down perspectives held by much of the free world concerning Israel, especially prior to its response in Gaza.
19th-Century Theologians Linked Muslim Weakness To Lack of Piety, Urged Return to Orthodoxy
The dialogue transitions into the theological discourse that emerged in the 19th century among Muslim theologians. These theologians were grappling with the decline of Muslim geopolitical power and the colonization of parts of the Muslim world. Key figures such as the Muftis of Egypt examined why Muslims had become weak and geopolitically insignificant.
Their conclusions linked the decline of Muslim societies with a lack of piety, advocating for a return to religious orthodoxy as a means of regaining strength and favor with God. Theologian Alafghani, along with his student Rida and the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Banna, were part of this movement. They saw the Muslim world as experiencing a cultural crisis and suggested a return to a more pietistic and orthodox Islam, which was then known as a "Salafist" approach.
Hamas's Theological View: Conflict With Israel as Resistance Against Islamic Dominance
Gur and Harris touch upon the rise of national identities influenced by sociological changes in Europe, which impacted early Zionist thinkers like Herzl and Pinsker. After observing the rise in anti-Semitism, Pinsker wrote "Auto-Emancipation" in 1881, advocating for Jewish self-determination due to the distrust in the emancipation offered by European nations. The early Zionists avoided trying to justify themselves to anti-Semites, a view encapsulated by David Ben-Gurion's "um shmoom" statement, dismissing UN criticism.
Hamas, established in 1987, views the conflict with Israel as part of a theological issue, with their confrontation seen as the first step toward Islam reclaiming its place in the world. They see the conflict as the start of Islam overcoming setbacks and showing sufficient piety for God's embrace, symbolizing a return to a redemptive role in history. Hamas's ideology is not merely about reclaiming land but is tied to a grand religious narrative that sees the reconquest as a threshold for Islam's return to prominence and power.
Gur shares the direct impact of such ideologies on Israeli life, with his family facing the consequences of Hamas's national military decisions, leading to real-life violence. Similarly, Harris speaks of a "death cult" and a zero-sum contest between open societies and theocratic aspirations within parts of the Muslim world, wh ...
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The Roots of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
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Counterarguments
- The concept of "moral asymmetries" is subjective and can be challenged by arguing that both sides have legitimate grievances and historical traumas that influence their perspectives and actions.
- The idea that the free world had an "upside-down" perspective on Israel could be countered by suggesting that international perspectives are diverse and often based on differing values, historical understandings, and political interests.
- The link between Muslim weakness and lack of piety is a theological interpretation that not all Muslims may agree with; alternative interpretations might attribute historical declines to a variety of social, economic, and political factors.
- The call for a return to religious orthodoxy as a solution to geopolitical issues could be critiqued from a secular perspective, which might argue for political and economic reforms instead of religious revival.
- The portrayal of Hamas's view of the conflict as purely theological could be nuanced by acknowledging that there are also nationalist, humanitarian, and political dimensions to their stance.
- The assertion that 80% of Palestinians believe in a specific conspiracy theory about the Al-Aqsa shrine could be questioned in terms of the methodology and accuracy of the polling data.
- The framing of the conflict as a battle for the soul of the Muslim world might be seen as an ...
Actionables
- You can deepen your understanding of historical narratives by reading books from both Israeli and Palestinian authors to gain a balanced perspective on the conflict. By exploring literature from both sides, you'll be able to see how historical narratives shape current perceptions and may find common ground in the human experiences shared by both communities.
- Engage in interfaith dialogue by joining or creating a local discussion group that focuses on understanding religious narratives and their impact on global conflicts. This can foster empathy and provide insights into how deeply held beliefs contribute to ongoing struggles, allowing you to appreciate the complexity of conflicts like the one between Israel and Hamas.
- Reflect on the role of personal narratives in shaping your views by j ...
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Situation in Gaza and Israel's Military Approach
Sam Harris and Haviv Rettig Gur discuss Israel's military approach to dealing with conflicts in Gaza, the global perception of these actions, and the implications of such strategies both within local communities and on the international stage.
Israel's Gaza Strategy Shifted From Clear and Hold To Targeted Raids to Avoid Prolonged Occupation Costs
Israel has learned from experiences in conflicts such as the 2006 war where it faced rocket attacks and lacked sufficient missile defense. Instead of relying on traditional strategies, Israel innovated, leading to the development of the Iron Dome missile defense system. Israel's shift toward advanced technological solutions in military defense showcases a reaction adapted from lessons observed, including the American "clear and hold" strategy in Afghanistan, to avoid the costs of prolonged occupation. Israel conducted a raiding war in Gaza, using frequent incursions to disrupt Hamas without holding territory.
Haviv Rettig Gur describes an idea to create a humanitarian corridor within Israel for Gazans, which would allow Israel to control aid and fight Hamas more freely. The suggestion aims to reduce dependency on Hamas, leading to its defeat.
Israel's Strategy of Incursions and Targeted Strikes on Hamas Criticized As Ineffective and Harming Civilians, Intended to Avoid Long-Term Occupation
Haviv Rettig Gur mentions the extensive tunnel system built by Hamas below Gaza City that forces any attacking force to pass through densely populated areas. This strategy involves sacrificing their own civilians, targeting those involved in distributing aid not controlled by Hamas, and using the death and destruction in Gaza as a tactical element. The raiding war strategy, likened to a "whack-a-mole" concept, requires time to be effective.
Gur points out misinformation regarding the situation in Gaza, emphasizing that there has not been serious hunger there, except in limited instances related to specific operations. Moreover, he argues that the destruction in Gaza is part of Hamas's tactic to draw any military response through the civilian population, increasing civilian casualties. He contrasts this with the misconception that Gazans lacked bomb shelters, highlighting that they do exist but civilians are barred from them.
Israel Accused Of War Crimes Amid Significant Civilian Costs in Gaza; Israel Aims to Defeat Hamas and Control Resources
Former Israeli Prime Minister Omert has publicly accused the current government of war crimes in Gaza, framing it as a pointless and criminal war with indiscriminate civilian deaths. Haviv Rettig Gur discusses how any Israeli action, including creating a humanitarian corridor, risks being interpreted as a war crime or as likened to extermination. Israel commit ...
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Situation in Gaza and Israel's Military Approach
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Counterarguments
- The strategy of targeted raids, while intended to avoid prolonged occupation, may not necessarily lead to a long-term solution and could perpetuate a cycle of violence.
- The Iron Dome is effective at intercepting rockets, but it does not address the root causes of the conflict and may give a false sense of security that could lead to escalation.
- The creation of a humanitarian corridor, while well-intentioned, could be seen as a way for Israel to further control the lives of Gazans and might not be a sustainable solution.
- Criticisms of Israel's military tactics as being harmful to civilians are valid, considering the high number of civilian casualties reported by various human rights organizations.
- The tunnel system in Gaza may be a response to the blockade and military incursions, and its existence could be seen as a means of defense against overwhelming military technology and power.
- While there may not be widespread hunger in Gaza, the blockade has led to significant economic hardship and a decline in living standards, which is a humanitarian concern.
- Accusations of war crimes are serious and warrant impartial international investigation, regardless of the intentions behind military actions.
- The blockade, while aimed at weakening Hamas, has had a profound impact on the civilian population and could be considered a form of collective punishment, which is against international law.
- Israel's public relations challenges may stem from genuine conce ...
Actionables
- You can enhance your conflict resolution skills by practicing targeted communication to address specific issues without escalating situations. Similar to the shift from a "clear and hold" strategy to targeted raids, focus on resolving conflicts by directly addressing the core problem with the involved parties. For example, if you're mediating a dispute at work, concentrate on the main issue without bringing up past grievances that could prolong the conflict.
- Develop a personal "Iron Dome" by creating a system to deflect negativity in your life. This could involve setting up daily routines that help you maintain a positive mindset, such as starting your day with meditation or journaling to prepare for potential stressors. When faced with criticism or negative feedback, use these routines to process and respond constructively rather than reactively.
- You can apply the concept of a humanitarian corridor to your community by vo ...
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The Feasibility and Challenges of a Two-state Solution
The concept of a two-state solution as a way to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict appears increasingly untenable as skepticism grows among both Israelis and Palestinians.
Viability of Two-state Solution Erodes; Skepticism Grows Among Israelis and Palestinians
Polls: Most Israelis, Palestinians Believe the Other Side Seeks Their Destruction, Hindering Trust For Settlement
Poll results highlight a grim outlook on the situation. A study by Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki showed that a significant majority of Palestinians feel threatened by Jewish terrorism and anticipate violence from Jewish extremists. Additionally, 80% of Palestinians believe that Jews aim to fundamentally alter the status quo at the Temple Mount, which further deepens the conviction that the other seeks their destruction. On the other side, a poll uncovered that 89% of Israelis and 92% of Palestinians believe that the other side wants to completely eliminate them, leading to a serious trust deficit that inhibits any peaceful resolution.
Past Two-state Solution Attempts Eroding Israeli Confidence
Israelis are increasingly doubtful about a two-state solution due to past attempts. In December 2005, then Kadima candidate Olmert proposed withdrawing from most of the West Bank under the convergence plan. However, following the election, continued hostilities from Gaza and Lebanon made it difficult to justify withdrawal. The actions of Hamas and Fatah have convinced Israelis that withdrawing from the West Bank might lead to chaos similar to what was seen in Gaza or South Lebanon, specifically the fear that Hamas could take control of strategic areas. Consequently, the average Israeli opposes the resettlement of Gaza, with polls indicating a 90% opposition.
Many Israelis Open to Two-state Solution, but Security Concerns and Politics Hinder Progress
Amid the skepticism, many Israelis have historically been open to withdrawing from large parts of the West Bank if it would lead to a genuine peace agreement. Haviv Rettig Gur states that most Israelis would theoretically support land swaps for peace, accommodating many settlements that are close to the Green ...
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The Feasibility and Challenges of a Two-state Solution
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Clarifications
- The Temple Mount is a holy site in Jerusalem that holds significance for both Jews and Muslims. For Jews, it is the site of the ancient Jewish temples, making it the holiest place in Judaism. For Muslims, it is known as the Haram al-Sharif and houses the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, making it the third holiest site in Islam. The area has been a focal point of tensions between Israelis and Palestinians due to its religious importance and political implications. Control and access to the Temple Mount have been contentious issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, often leading to heightened tensions and violence.
- The convergence plan proposed by then Kadima candidate Olmert in 2005 aimed to withdraw from most of the West Bank, focusing on retaining major settlement blocs close to Israel's border. The plan was a unilateral initiative by Israel to define its borders without Palestinian agreement. Olmert's proposal was influenced by the belief that a two-state solution required Israel to disengage from parts of the West Bank to enhance its security and demographic integrity. The plan faced challenges and criticism, especially due to ongoing hostilities from Gaza and Lebanon, which raised doubts about the feasibility and risks of such a withdrawal.
- The Second Intifada was a period of intensified Palestinian-Israeli violence from 2000 to 2005, marked by suicide bombings and Israeli military responses. It led to a significant loss of Israeli lives and heightened fear and trauma among the Israeli population. The violence eroded trust between Israelis and Palestinians, impacting Israeli perspectives on the feasibility of peace agreements and the willingness to engage in further territorial withdrawals. The Second Intifada significantly influenced Israeli attitudes towards security concerns and the risks associated with potential peace negotiations.
- Political hindrances that derailed plans for further disengagement from the West Bank included internal opposition within the Israeli government, concerns over security implications of withdrawal, and challenges in garnering public support for such a move. Additionally, the fragile political l ...
Counterarguments
- Polls may not accurately capture the full complexity of public opinion, as they can be influenced by the phrasing of questions, the current political climate, or recent events.
- The belief that the other side seeks destruction could be a reflection of extreme views or media narratives, rather than the majority opinion.
- Past failures of the two-state solution do not necessarily predict future outcomes; changing political dynamics or leadership could alter the situation.
- Security concerns, while valid, may sometimes be used to justify maintaining the status quo, which can also perpetuate the conflict.
- The openness of Israelis to a two-state solution might be more widespread than polls suggest, but political leadership and external pressures could be influencing public statements and policies.
- Political hindrances are often subject to change, and new political alliances or shifts in public opinion could create new opportunities for progress.
- The focus on security concerns might overshadow other important issues such as human rights, justice, and economic stability, which are also crucial for a sustainable peace.
- The actions of a few individuals or groups (like Hamas) should not b ...
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