In this episode of Making Sense, Sam Harris and Rutger Bregman discuss the state of global progress and the potential for positive societal change. Bregman shares his transition from academia to journalism and explains his perspective on humanity's current position at a crucial historical juncture—a time that could lead to either significant advancement or decline.
The conversation explores how wealth and inequality affect social progress, touching on the role of philanthropy and the need for tax reform. Bregman presents his vision for a movement that would elevate "doing good" to a high-status pursuit, encouraging talented individuals to address global challenges rather than focus solely on accumulating private wealth. The discussion also examines different approaches to creating positive change, from billionaire philanthropy to systematic policy reforms.
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Rutger Bregman shares his journey from academia to journalism, describing how traditional academic specialization felt too constraining for his interest in broad historical questions. He found his niche at The Correspondent, a Dutch journalism platform that allowed him to explore structural societal issues like universal basic income. Working with a Dutch audience provided him an ideal testing ground to refine ideas that would later become his books.
While acknowledging Steven Pinker's observations about humanity's progress in areas like poverty reduction and child mortality, Bregman argues that we're at a unique historical juncture. He describes current times as a climactic moment where exponential changes since 1750 could lead to either catastrophe or utopia. Despite alarming trends, Bregman finds hope in historical examples of elite-led counter-cultural movements, such as British abolitionists and American progressives like Theodore Roosevelt, who successfully challenged entrenched power structures.
Bregman advocates for a movement that would make "doing good" a high-status pursuit, encouraging talented individuals to address global challenges rather than simply pursue private wealth. As a self-described old-fashioned social democrat, he critiques the current left-wing "de-growth" movement, arguing instead for expanding wealth globally rather than promoting universal impoverishment in the name of egalitarianism.
While critical of most billionaire philanthropy as reputation-focused, Bregman acknowledges exceptions like Bill Gates's work in global health. He argues that wealth itself isn't the problem, but rather how it's utilized. Drawing from conversations with Sam Harris, Bregman suggests focusing on using wealth for positive outcomes rather than fostering resentment towards it, while advocating for tax fairness similar to the rates seen in the 1950s and 60s.
1-Page Summary
Bregman shares the journey from academia to journalism that allowed him to focus on the significant questions about human history and societal progress that intrigued him.
Bregman recollects his time as a history student at Utrecht University and his early ambitions to become a professor, aiming to write about major historical questions. He encountered a roadblock, however, feeling trapped by the confines of academic specialization. He was required to commit years to granular study for a PhD, a stark contrast to his desire to tackle broad historical narratives. Bregman's disenchantment only grew as he delved into current academic publications, which seemed disconnected from the larger questions that drove his passion.
The realm of journalism initially presented a similar constraint for Bregman—not because of a demand for specialization, but due to an incessant focus on the frenetic pace of breaking news stories. What Bregman sought was the space to delve into the undercurrents shaping society. His break came when he joined The Correspondent, an innovative journalism platform based in the Netherlands. It was here that Bregman found the freedom to explore and write on structural societal issues, like universal basic income, topics he saw as pivotal regardless of one's political standpoint.
Bregman's Background, Perspective, and Motivations
Rutger Bregman provides an overview of the progress humanity has made, as well as the unique challenges it now faces, and he draws parallels between past movements and contemporary ones that offer hope for positive change.
Bregman acknowledges the perspective of historians like Steven Pinker, who point to significant progress in areas such as poverty reduction and child mortality. However, Bregman argues that today's world feels uniquely precarious, akin to the climactic moment of a film where the outcome could lead to either a catastrophic failure or a major breakthrough.
Despite the clear advancements, Bregman suggests that the sense of precarity in today's society is not simply a product of 'chronocentrism', the idea of overvaluing the significance of one's own time. Instead, Bregman believes that the present moment is genuinely distinct because of the exponential changes and significant challenges that we as a civilization are confronting.
Bregman describes the exponential growth since 1750 as a 'hockey stick' graph where human progress has spiked dramatically. He paints a vivid picture of today's world being at a crucial historical juncture that could potentially enable mankind to venture into colonizing the Milky Way or constructing a utopian society.
In the face of daunting trends and the potential for moral decay, Bregman finds solace in the historical precedent of elite-led counter-cultural movements that have enacted positive social change.
Current State of the World: Progress and Challenges
Rutger Bregman outlines a compelling vision for a movement where “doing good” becomes an aspiration for the ambitious and talented, and challenges the current paradigm that often prioritizes private wealth over collective well-being.
Bregman speaks of creating a movement that shifts the definition of high-status to align with doing good, particularly drawing the most talented and ambitious individuals towards working on significant issues facing humanity. Bregman cites historical and modern figures, such as Elva Vanderbilt and Mackenzie Scott, as examples of elite-led reforms that exemplify the movement he envisions. These individuals, he argues, have turned away from a life of excessive wealth to support broader societal causes, demonstrating a reallocation of prestige from wealth accumulation to social contribution.
Bregman wants to encourage those with talent and ambition to tackle global challenges rather than merely pursuing private wealth with companies like McKinsey or Goldman Sachs. He talks about the concept of moral ambition being contagious and the need to establish an aspirational mode of life that is not just good, but also attractive and esteemed.
Identifying as an old-fashioned social democrat, Bregman challenges the current left-wing movement, which he views as being counterproductive in its approach to de-growth and its demonization of wealth and luxury. He believes that the left ...
Bregman's Vision for a "Movement" of Moral Ambition
Rutger Bregman, a noted critic of the current United States political climate and billionaire philanthropy, presents his perspective on the interplay of wealth, inequality, and philanthropy.
Bregman critiques aspects of billionaire philanthropy, arguing that it often falls short of addressing the root causes of inequality. He expresses the view that many philanthropic acts are mere reputation-building measures, with significant donations going to high-profile institutions like museums or universities merely to secure naming rights, rather than effectuating substantive change in inequality.
Despite his criticisms, Bregman acknowledges exceptions to his critique and recognizes Bill Gates as an example of exceptional positive impact through philanthropy, especially in the realms of global health and development.
Leaning on his conversations with figures like Sam Harris, Bregman clarifies his stance on wealth, suggesting that the problem is not the existence of wealth itself, but the manner in which it is utilized. He urges society to focus on using wealth to create positive outcomes rather than fostering resentment towards it. Bregman notes the need for tax fairness and decries the lower effective tax rates often paid by billionaires c ...
Wealth, Inequality, and Philanthropy In Creating Positive Change
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