Podcasts > Making Sense with Sam Harris > #412 — Better Things & Better People

#412 — Better Things & Better People

By Waking Up with Sam Harris

In this episode of Making Sense, Sam Harris and Rutger Bregman discuss the state of global progress and the potential for positive societal change. Bregman shares his transition from academia to journalism and explains his perspective on humanity's current position at a crucial historical juncture—a time that could lead to either significant advancement or decline.

The conversation explores how wealth and inequality affect social progress, touching on the role of philanthropy and the need for tax reform. Bregman presents his vision for a movement that would elevate "doing good" to a high-status pursuit, encouraging talented individuals to address global challenges rather than focus solely on accumulating private wealth. The discussion also examines different approaches to creating positive change, from billionaire philanthropy to systematic policy reforms.

Listen to the original

#412 — Better Things & Better People

This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the May 2, 2025 episode of the Making Sense with Sam Harris

Sign up for Shortform to access the whole episode summary along with additional materials like counterarguments and context.

#412 — Better Things & Better People

1-Page Summary

Bregman's Background, Perspective, and Motivations

Rutger Bregman shares his journey from academia to journalism, describing how traditional academic specialization felt too constraining for his interest in broad historical questions. He found his niche at The Correspondent, a Dutch journalism platform that allowed him to explore structural societal issues like universal basic income. Working with a Dutch audience provided him an ideal testing ground to refine ideas that would later become his books.

Current State of the World: Progress and Challenges

While acknowledging Steven Pinker's observations about humanity's progress in areas like poverty reduction and child mortality, Bregman argues that we're at a unique historical juncture. He describes current times as a climactic moment where exponential changes since 1750 could lead to either catastrophe or utopia. Despite alarming trends, Bregman finds hope in historical examples of elite-led counter-cultural movements, such as British abolitionists and American progressives like Theodore Roosevelt, who successfully challenged entrenched power structures.

Bregman's Vision for a "Movement" of Moral Ambition

Bregman advocates for a movement that would make "doing good" a high-status pursuit, encouraging talented individuals to address global challenges rather than simply pursue private wealth. As a self-described old-fashioned social democrat, he critiques the current left-wing "de-growth" movement, arguing instead for expanding wealth globally rather than promoting universal impoverishment in the name of egalitarianism.

Wealth, Inequality, and Philanthropy In Creating Positive Change

While critical of most billionaire philanthropy as reputation-focused, Bregman acknowledges exceptions like Bill Gates's work in global health. He argues that wealth itself isn't the problem, but rather how it's utilized. Drawing from conversations with Sam Harris, Bregman suggests focusing on using wealth for positive outcomes rather than fostering resentment towards it, while advocating for tax fairness similar to the rates seen in the 1950s and 60s.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Bregman criticizes the left-wing "de-growth" movement for advocating universal impoverishment in the pursuit of egalitarianism. He argues against shrinking the economy as a solution to societal issues, instead advocating for global wealth expansion to address challenges. Bregman believes that promoting "doing good" and addressing global challenges should be prioritized over pursuing de-growth policies. He suggests that focusing on wealth redistribution and positive outcomes is more effective than advocating for reducing economic output.
  • Making "doing good" a high-status pursuit involves elevating acts of kindness, philanthropy, and social responsibility to a level of prestige and admiration within society. This concept aims to shift societal values towards valuing altruism and positive impact on a par with traditional markers of success like wealth or power. By promoting "doing good" as prestigious, it encourages individuals to prioritize contributing to the greater good over self-serving pursuits, fostering a culture where making a positive difference is seen as a significant achievement. This shift in perspective can influence behavior on a broader scale, potentially leading to a society where acts of kindness and social contribution are highly valued and celebrated.
  • Tax fairness rates in the 1950s and 60s in the United States referred to significantly higher marginal tax rates on the wealthiest individuals. During this period, the top income tax bracket saw rates exceeding 90%, aimed at redistributing wealth and funding government programs. These high rates were part of a progressive tax system designed to reduce income inequality and support social welfare initiatives. The context of these rates is important when discussing modern tax policy proposals and debates on wealth distribution.

Counterarguments

  • The transition from academia to journalism may not always lead to a broader impact or the ability to address large-scale societal issues, as academia also plays a crucial role in deep, specialized research that can inform policy and innovation.
  • While The Correspondent provided a platform for Bregman, some might argue that such platforms can also echo chambers that reinforce existing beliefs rather than challenge them.
  • The idea that we are at a unique historical juncture could be seen as a common narrative throughout history; many generations have felt they were living in pivotal times.
  • Historical examples of elite-led counter-cultural movements may not always be applicable to today's globalized and interconnected world, where power structures are more complex.
  • The concept of making "doing good" a high-status pursuit could be criticized for relying on status as a motivator, which might not address deeper systemic issues that prevent good deeds from being accomplished.
  • The critique of the "de-growth" movement may overlook the environmental and sustainability arguments that underpin the movement's philosophy.
  • While Bregman acknowledges positive billionaire philanthropy, critics might argue that philanthropy is not a substitute for systemic change and can sometimes perpetuate power imbalances.
  • The argument that wealth is not the problem but how it's utilized might be challenged by those who believe that extreme wealth accumulation is inherently problematic due to the power dynamics it creates.
  • Advocating for tax fairness similar to the 1950s and 60s might not take into account the vastly different economic context of today's world, including globalization and technological advancements.

Get access to the context and additional materials

So you can understand the full picture and form your own opinion.
Get access for free
#412 — Better Things & Better People

Bregman's Background, Perspective, and Motivations

Bregman shares the journey from academia to journalism that allowed him to focus on the significant questions about human history and societal progress that intrigued him.

Bregman Was Frustrated by Academia's Isolation and Journalism's News Focus

Historian Bregman, Interested in Big-picture Human History and Progress, Felt Constrained by Academic Publishing

Bregman recollects his time as a history student at Utrecht University and his early ambitions to become a professor, aiming to write about major historical questions. He encountered a roadblock, however, feeling trapped by the confines of academic specialization. He was required to commit years to granular study for a PhD, a stark contrast to his desire to tackle broad historical narratives. Bregman's disenchantment only grew as he delved into current academic publications, which seemed disconnected from the larger questions that drove his passion.

Bregman Found Freedom in Journalism, Exploring Universal Basic Income and Societal Forces

The realm of journalism initially presented a similar constraint for Bregman—not because of a demand for specialization, but due to an incessant focus on the frenetic pace of breaking news stories. What Bregman sought was the space to delve into the undercurrents shaping society. His break came when he joined The Correspondent, an innovative journalism platform based in the Netherlands. It was here that Bregman found the freedom to explore and write on structural societal issues, like universal basic income, topics he saw as pivotal regardless of one's political standpoint.

Bregman Developed His Ideas For a Dutch Audien ...

Here’s what you’ll find in our full summary

Registered users get access to the Full Podcast Summary and Additional Materials. It’s easy and free!
Start your free trial today

Bregman's Background, Perspective, and Motivations

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Specialization in academia can lead to depth and rigor in research, which is essential for scientific progress.
  • Academic isolation can sometimes be a necessary condition for deep focus and original thought.
  • The news focus in journalism ensures that the public is informed about current events, which is a vital function of the press.
  • Broad historical narratives can sometimes oversimplify complex events and may benefit from the detailed insights provided by specialized studies.
  • While universal basic income is an important topic, it is not the only structural societal issue worth exploring, and other perspectives may offer equally valuable insights.
  • The Correspondent's model, while innovative, may not be the only or best way to engage with and refine ideas before publishing them as books. ...

Actionables

  • You can explore diverse interests by starting a blog where you write about various topics that intrigue you, breaking free from the constraints of specialization. By doing this, you create a personal space to delve into different subjects without the pressure to conform to a specific niche, similar to how Bregman found freedom in journalism. For example, if you're interested in both gardening and technology, you could write articles that explore the intersection of these fields, such as the impact of tech on sustainable agriculture.
  • Consider joining or creating a local discussion group focused on societal issues to engage with others outside of your usual circles. This can provide a platform similar to The Correspondent, where Bregman tackled structural societal issues. For instance, you could organize monthly meet-ups at a community center where participants discuss topics like universal basic income or climate change, encouraging a collective exploration of ideas.
  • Use language learning as a tool t ...

Get access to the context and additional materials

So you can understand the full picture and form your own opinion.
Get access for free
#412 — Better Things & Better People

Current State of the World: Progress and Challenges

Rutger Bregman provides an overview of the progress humanity has made, as well as the unique challenges it now faces, and he draws parallels between past movements and contemporary ones that offer hope for positive change.

Reducing Poverty and Child Mortality Amid U.S. Political Turmoil

Bregman acknowledges the perspective of historians like Steven Pinker, who point to significant progress in areas such as poverty reduction and child mortality. However, Bregman argues that today's world feels uniquely precarious, akin to the climactic moment of a film where the outcome could lead to either a catastrophic failure or a major breakthrough.

Bregman Acknowledges the "Betterment" Perspective by Steven Pinker but Argues the Current Moment Feels Uniquely Precarious

Despite the clear advancements, Bregman suggests that the sense of precarity in today's society is not simply a product of 'chronocentrism', the idea of overvaluing the significance of one's own time. Instead, Bregman believes that the present moment is genuinely distinct because of the exponential changes and significant challenges that we as a civilization are confronting.

Bregman Sees Exponential Change As a Climactic Historical Moment, With Potential For Catastrophe or Utopia

Bregman describes the exponential growth since 1750 as a 'hockey stick' graph where human progress has spiked dramatically. He paints a vivid picture of today's world being at a crucial historical juncture that could potentially enable mankind to venture into colonizing the Milky Way or constructing a utopian society.

In the face of daunting trends and the potential for moral decay, Bregman finds solace in the historical precedent of elite-led counter-cultural movements that have enacted positive social change.

Past Movements Show Positiv ...

Here’s what you’ll find in our full summary

Registered users get access to the Full Podcast Summary and Additional Materials. It’s easy and free!
Start your free trial today

Current State of the World: Progress and Challenges

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Chronocentrism is the tendency to believe that one's own time period is more important or significant than others. It involves viewing the present as the pinnacle of human progress and often undervaluing the achievements or challenges of past eras. This concept can lead to a biased perspective that fails to appreciate historical context and the complexities of progress over time. Bregman argues that the sense of precarity in today's society goes beyond mere chronocentrism, suggesting that the challenges faced now are uniquely significant.
  • In the text, the comparison of today's world to a climactic moment in a film suggests that the current global situation is at a critical juncture where significant decisions and actions could lead to either a disastrous outcome or a major positive breakthrough. This analogy emphasizes the high stakes and uncertainty of the present moment, highlighting the pivotal nature of the challenges and opportunities facing humanity.
  • The 'hockey stick' graph is a visual representation of exponential growth, where progress remains relatively flat for a period before sharply increasing. In this context, it illustrates how human progress saw a significant spike starting around 1750. This term is often used to depict sudden and substantial advancements in various fields over a relatively short period. The analogy suggests that after a prolonged period of slow progress, there was a rapid and remarkable advancement in human development and achievements.
  • The British abolitionists were activists in the late 18th and early 19th centuries who fought against the transatlantic slave trade and slavery itself. They campaigned for the abolition of slavery in the British Empire, highlighting the moral and humanitarian issues associated with the practice. The movement gained momentum through the effo ...

Counterarguments

  • While Bregman acknowledges progress in areas like poverty reduction and child mortality, it could be argued that such metrics may not fully capture the complexity of poverty or the lived experiences of those who are still struggling, suggesting a need for more nuanced indicators of well-being.
  • The idea that the current moment is uniquely precarious might be challenged by pointing out that every generation has faced its own set of challenges and crises, and that the perception of precarity could be influenced by presentism or media amplification of current events.
  • The potential for exponential change to lead to either catastrophe or utopia could be critiqued by suggesting that change is often more incremental and that both outcomes may be overly simplistic, ignoring the possibility of a middle ground or a range of outcomes.
  • The reliance on elite-led counter-cultural movements for positive social change could be criticized for potentially underestimating the power and importance of grassroots movements and the agency of the broader population in driving change.
  • The comparison of past movements to current ones might be met with skepticism by those w ...

Get access to the context and additional materials

So you can understand the full picture and form your own opinion.
Get access for free
#412 — Better Things & Better People

Bregman's Vision for a "Movement" of Moral Ambition

Rutger Bregman outlines a compelling vision for a movement where “doing good” becomes an aspiration for the ambitious and talented, and challenges the current paradigm that often prioritizes private wealth over collective well-being.

Bregman Urges a Movement to Make "Doing Good" High-Status, Inspired by Elite-Led Reform

Encouraging Talent to Solve Global Issues Over Private Wealth Pursuit

Bregman speaks of creating a movement that shifts the definition of high-status to align with doing good, particularly drawing the most talented and ambitious individuals towards working on significant issues facing humanity. Bregman cites historical and modern figures, such as Elva Vanderbilt and Mackenzie Scott, as examples of elite-led reforms that exemplify the movement he envisions. These individuals, he argues, have turned away from a life of excessive wealth to support broader societal causes, demonstrating a reallocation of prestige from wealth accumulation to social contribution.

Bregman wants to encourage those with talent and ambition to tackle global challenges rather than merely pursuing private wealth with companies like McKinsey or Goldman Sachs. He talks about the concept of moral ambition being contagious and the need to establish an aspirational mode of life that is not just good, but also attractive and esteemed.

Bregman Critiques the Left-Wing "De-growth" Movement for Demonizing Wealth, Not Focusing On Equitable Growth Distribution

Bregman Advocates For Raising the Poorest To the Richest's Standards, Not For Universal Impoverishment Through Egalitarianism

Identifying as an old-fashioned social democrat, Bregman challenges the current left-wing movement, which he views as being counterproductive in its approach to de-growth and its demonization of wealth and luxury. He believes that the left ...

Here’s what you’ll find in our full summary

Registered users get access to the Full Podcast Summary and Additional Materials. It’s easy and free!
Start your free trial today

Bregman's Vision for a "Movement" of Moral Ambition

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Elite-led reforms involve influential and affluent individuals using their resources and status to drive positive change in society. These elites, often from privileged backgrounds, choose to redirect their focus and wealth towards addressing broader societal issues rather than solely pursuing personal gain. By leveraging their power and influence, they can inspire others and catalyze movements that prioritize social good over individual wealth accumulation. This approach aims to shift societal norms and values towards recognizing and rewarding actions that benefit the collective well-being.
  • The "de-growth" movement advocates for reducing economic production and consumption to achieve sustainability and social well-being, challenging the traditional focus on continuous economic growth. Critics argue that de-growth may lead to negative economic consequences and fail to address issues of poverty and inequality effectively. Supporters believe it is necessary to shift towards a more sustainable and equitable society, emphasizing well-being over material growth. Bregman criticizes the movement for demonizing wealth and luxury without focusing enough on redistributing wealth equitably to raise the standards of the poorest.
  • Bregman's identification as an "old-fashioned social democrat" indicates his political ideology aligns with traditional social democratic principles, which typically advocate for a mixed economy, social welfare programs, and a balance between market capitalism and government intervention to promote social justice and equality.
  • Raising the poorest to the standards of the richest means ensuring that those who are economically disadvantaged have access to the same opportunities, resources, and quality of life as the wealthiest individuals in society. This concept aims to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor by uplifting the most vulnerable members of society to a level where they can enjoy similar benefits and privileges as the affluent. It involves addressing systemic inequalities, providing equitable access to education, healthcare, and economic opportunities, and promoting social mobility to create ...

Counterarguments

  • The feasibility of shifting societal values to prioritize "doing good" over wealth accumulation may be challenging due to entrenched economic systems and cultural norms that reward financial success.
  • The effectiveness of elite-led reform can be questioned, as it may not address systemic issues that require collective action rather than individual philanthropy.
  • There is a risk that the movement could become elitist, only accessible to those who already have the means and resources to participate in high-status "doing good" activities.
  • The idea of raising the poorest to the standards of the richest may not be sustainable or environmentally viable given current resource constraints and ecological concerns.
  • Bregman's critique of the de-growth movement may overlook the valid concerns about the environmental and social limits of continuous economic growth.
  • The assumption that moral ambition can be made contagious and universally appealing may not account for diverse motivations and cultural differences in what is considered "good" or "aspirational."
  • The focus on attracting talented and ambitious individuals to s ...

Get access to the context and additional materials

So you can understand the full picture and form your own opinion.
Get access for free
#412 — Better Things & Better People

Wealth, Inequality, and Philanthropy In Creating Positive Change

Rutger Bregman, a noted critic of the current United States political climate and billionaire philanthropy, presents his perspective on the interplay of wealth, inequality, and philanthropy.

Bregman Critiques Billionaire Philanthropy as Reputation-Focused, Not Addressing Inequality's Roots

Bregman critiques aspects of billionaire philanthropy, arguing that it often falls short of addressing the root causes of inequality. He expresses the view that many philanthropic acts are mere reputation-building measures, with significant donations going to high-profile institutions like museums or universities merely to secure naming rights, rather than effectuating substantive change in inequality.

Despite his criticisms, Bregman acknowledges exceptions to his critique and recognizes Bill Gates as an example of exceptional positive impact through philanthropy, especially in the realms of global health and development.

Bregman: Don't Begrudge Wealth if Used For Good

Leaning on his conversations with figures like Sam Harris, Bregman clarifies his stance on wealth, suggesting that the problem is not the existence of wealth itself, but the manner in which it is utilized. He urges society to focus on using wealth to create positive outcomes rather than fostering resentment towards it. Bregman notes the need for tax fairness and decries the lower effective tax rates often paid by billionaires c ...

Here’s what you’ll find in our full summary

Registered users get access to the Full Podcast Summary and Additional Materials. It’s easy and free!
Start your free trial today

Wealth, Inequality, and Philanthropy In Creating Positive Change

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Philanthropy can be a more efficient way of addressing specific issues than government programs, due to less bureaucratic overhead and the ability to take risks on innovative solutions.
  • High-profile donations to institutions like museums and universities can have indirect benefits on society by promoting education, culture, and research.
  • The motivations behind philanthropy, whether for reputation or genuine altruism, may be less important than the outcomes of the philanthropic acts.
  • Wealth creation is often a result of providing value to society, and the ability to accumulate wealth can be a powerful incentive for innovation and economic growth.
  • Taxation policies need to balance fairness with the potential negative impacts on economic growth and investment if tax rates are perceived as punitive.
  • Wealth is not a zero-sum game; the existence of billionaires does not inherently mean that others are poor, and wealth can be created without taking from others ...

Actionables

  • You can evaluate the transparency and impact of charities before donating by using online tools like Charity Navigator or GiveWell. These platforms assess the effectiveness of nonprofits, allowing you to ensure your contributions are addressing root causes rather than just serving as reputation boosters. For example, instead of donating to a well-known university, you might choose a charity that works on systemic changes in education for underprivileged communities.
  • Start a giving circle with friends or family to pool resources and fund grassroots initiatives. By combining your donations, you can support smaller, local organizations that are working directly on issues of inequality and lack of opportunity. This approach not only maximizes the impact of your collective wealth but also encourages a collaborative effort in addressing social challenges.
  • Advocate for tax fairness ...

Get access to the context and additional materials

So you can understand the full picture and form your own opinion.
Get access for free

Create Summaries for anything on the web

Download the Shortform Chrome extension for your browser

Shortform Extension CTA