Podcasts > Making Sense with Sam Harris > #388 — What Is Life?

#388 — What Is Life?

By Waking Up with Sam Harris

What is life? In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris and guest Sara Imari Walker take a fresh look at this age-old question from a physics and information-theoretic perspective. They critically examine traditional definitions of life and explore potentially expanding the concept to non-biological substrates such as technology.

Walker explains her "substrate-agnostic" view of life as information that can exist independently of its physical medium. The conversation delves into theories on the origins and evolution of life itself, including assembly theory, which defines complexity in terms of hierarchical construction steps, and constructor theory, which focuses on processes enabling objects' existence, with knowledge as a key "constructor."

Listen to the original

#388 — What Is Life?

This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the Oct 21, 2024 episode of the Making Sense with Sam Harris

Sign up for Shortform to access the whole episode summary along with additional materials like counterarguments and context.

#388 — What Is Life?

1-Page Summary

The physics and information-theoretic perspective on life

Erwin Schrodinger's contributions

Schrodinger hypothesized genetic material was an "aperiodic crystal" storing vast information, leading to the discovery of DNA's role.

Limitations of standard life definitions

According to Sara Imari Walker, definitions of life as self-sustaining chemical systems undergoing evolution don't account for viruses and memes.
Walker suggests a substrate-agnostic view of life, where information can exist independently of specific physical media.

The concept of "artificial life"

Walker questions the term "artificial life," as technology may be a continuation of an evolutionary process from biology.

Sam Harris notes people struggle to see non-biological substrates as hosting true "life," despite accepting machine intelligences.
Walker advocates broadening life's definition beyond biological terms to be substrate-independent.

Theories for the origin and evolution of life

Assembly theory

Assembly theory states complex objects arise through hierarchical construction from simpler components over time.
An "assembly index" measures complexity via minimum required construction steps. Above a threshold, spontaneous formation becomes exponentially unlikely.

Constructor theory

Constructor theory focuses on what transformations are possible rather than initial conditions.
"Constructors" constrain possibilities to enable other objects' existence, with knowledge as a key constructor.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Erwin Schrodinger's concept of an "aperiodic crystal" referred to a hypothetical structure within living organisms that stores vast genetic information without the typical repeating patterns seen in regular crystals. This idea helped pave the way for understanding the role of DNA in genetics and molecular biology. The term "aperiodic crystal" was a metaphorical description used by Schrodinger to explain the non-repetitive nature of genetic material's information storage mechanism. It highlighted the complexity and unique characteristics of genetic information within living systems.
  • A "substrate-agnostic view of life" is a perspective that considers life to be independent of the specific material or medium it is based on. In this context, life is defined by its informational processes rather than the physical substances that support it. This viewpoint allows for the possibility of life existing in forms beyond traditional biological systems, such as in artificial intelligence or other non-biological constructs. It suggests that life can manifest in various substrates, not limited to organic matter, expanding the understanding of what constitutes living systems.
  • In the context of technology as a continuation of an evolutionary process from biology, "artificial life" suggests that advancements in technology, such as artificial intelligence and synthetic biology, can be seen as extensions of the evolutionary principles that govern biological life. This viewpoint considers how human-created systems and technologies can exhibit lifelike characteristics and behaviors, blurring the traditional boundaries between biological life and artificial constructs. It challenges us to rethink what constitutes "life" beyond organic forms, exploring the potential for non-biological entities to exhibit life-like properties through technological evolution.
  • Constructor theory is a theoretical framework in physics that focuses on what transformations are possible rather than just the initial conditions. In this theory, "constructors" are entities or processes that enable the existence of other objects by constraining the possibilities of what can happen. These constructors play a crucial role in shaping the laws of physics and determining what can and cannot be constructed or transformed in the universe. By understanding the constraints imposed by these constructors, we can gain insights into the fundamental principles that govern the behavior and evolution of physical systems.

Counterarguments

  • Schrodinger's "aperiodic crystal" hypothesis was a visionary insight, but the actual structure and function of DNA are far more complex than the concept of an aperiodic crystal might suggest.
  • Some biologists argue that viruses should be considered a form of life when they are within a host cell, as they exhibit characteristics of life such as reproduction and evolution.
  • The substrate-agnostic view of life might overlook the importance of the physical and chemical environment in shaping the processes of life, which are deeply rooted in thermodynamics and molecular interactions.
  • While technology can be seen as an extension of biological evolution, some argue that it lacks the autonomous agency and self-organization that are hallmarks of biological life.
  • Acceptance of machine intelligences as "life" may be premature, as they do not exhibit all life characteristics, such as homeostasis, metabolism, and the ability to evolve by natural selection.
  • Broadening the definition of life to be substrate-independent could dilute the specificity of the term, making it too broad and less useful for scientific purposes.
  • Assembly theory may not fully account for the role of random mutations and natural selection in the complexity of life forms.
  • The "assembly index" might oversimplify the complexity of biological systems, which often show emergent properties that are not predictable from simply knowing the components and steps of assembly.
  • Constructor theory's focus on possible transformations might not sufficiently address the historical and environmental contingencies that have shaped the evolution of life on Earth.
  • The concept of "constructors" enabling the existence of other objects may not capture the full range of interactions and feedback loops present in complex systems, such as ecosystems or the global climate.

Get access to the context and additional materials

So you can understand the full picture and form your own opinion.
Get access for free
#388 — What Is Life?

The physics and information-theoretic perspective on the nature of life

The complex nature of life is examined from both a physics and an information-theoretic perspective, offering insights that challenge standard definitions and explore the physical basis of life.

Erwin Schrodinger's contributions to understanding the physical basis of life

Sara Imari Walker and Harris delve into the pioneering thoughts of physicist Erwin Schrödinger, who contributed significantly to our understanding of the physical nature of life through his work.

Schrodinger hypothesized that the genetic material must be an "aperiodic crystal" capable of storing vast amounts of information, which was a key insight leading to the discovery of DNA.

Schrödinger speculated about the nature of genetic heredity, suggesting that a vast amount of information was necessary to specify all the details in a cell. He envisioned an "aperiodic crystal" as a means to store this robust information, leading to an understanding of DNA's role as the genetic material. His conceptualization of a non-periodic crystal has been instrumental in understanding how DNA can store extensive information and direct the functioning of living cells.

Limitations of standard definitions of life

Sarah Imari Walker criticizes standard definitions of life used in astrobiology and discusses the ambiguous nature of life when considering edge cases and different substances.

Definitions of life as a "self-sustaining chemical system capable of Darwinian evolution" face issues when applied to edge cases like viruses and memes.

Walker highlights the problems with standard definitions of life, particularly when applied to viruses and memes. These definitions, which characterize life as self-sustaining chemical systems capable of Darwinian evolution, stumble when confronted with the peculiar case of viruses, which don't uphold the self-sustaining criterion outside host cells. Furthermore, non-chemical systems, like memes, challenge the idea that life must be strictly chemical. The discussion also addresses complexities, such as the role of individual organisms and evolving populations and the status of entities like honeybee colonies, where the collective exhibits life characteristics, although individual bees do not engage in reproduction independently.

The distinction between "biological" and "artificial" life is problematic, as it may be more construc ...

Here’s what you’ll find in our full summary

Registered users get access to the Full Podcast Summary and Additional Materials. It’s easy and free!
Start your free trial today

The physics and information-theoretic perspective on the nature of life

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • An aperiodic crystal, as conceptualized by Schrödinger, is a theoretical structure capable of storing vast amounts of information in a non-repeating pattern. In the context of genetic material, Schrödinger proposed this idea to explain how the intricate details of a cell could be encoded and preserved. This concept helped pave the way for understanding DNA's role as the carrier of genetic information due to its ability to store complex data in a non-repetitive manner. The term "aperiodic" signifies a lack of regular, repeating patterns, contrasting with the typical crystalline structures found in inorganic materials.
  • Viruses and memes present challenges in defining life due to their unique characteristics. Viruses are considered on the edge of life because they cannot replicate independently and require a host cell to reproduce. Memes, on the other hand, are cultural units of information that can evolve and spread but do not exhibit traditional biological characteristics. These examples highlight the complexities in categorizing entities that blur the lines between living and non-living systems.
  • A substrate-agnostic view of life suggests that life should not be defined by the specific materials or substances it is composed of, but rather by its fundamental properties and behaviors. This perspective considers life as a phenomenon that can exist in various forms beyond traditional biological contexts, acknowledging that life may manifest in different substrates or mediums. It emphasizes the importance of focusing on the essential characteristics of life, such as information processing and replication, regardless of the physical basis on which these processes occur. By adopting a substrate-agnostic approach, researchers aim to broaden the understand ...

Counterarguments

  • Schrödinger's idea of an "aperiodic crystal" was a visionary concept, but it oversimplifies the complexity of genetic material. DNA is not merely a storage device but also part of a dynamic system involving RNA, proteins, and epigenetic factors that contribute to heredity and function.
  • Some argue that standard definitions of life, while imperfect, provide a practical framework for scientific inquiry. They contend that edge cases like viruses and memes can be accommodated by expanding or refining these definitions rather than discarding them.
  • The distinction between "biological" and "artificial" life may still hold value for certain research purposes, such as understanding the unique evolutionary processes that have shaped biological life on Earth, which may not apply to artificial systems.
  • While a substrate-agnostic view of life is philosophically appealing, it may not be practical for all areas of research, as the physical substrate can significantly influence the behavior and evolution of living systems.
  • Assembly theory and the focus on information may not fully acco ...

Get access to the context and additional materials

So you can understand the full picture and form your own opinion.
Get access for free
#388 — What Is Life?

The concept of "artificial life" and whether it's a contradiction in terms

The concept of "artificial life" brings to the forefront a debate over the true nature of life and challenges long-held perceptions about the differences between biological and artificial systems.

Artificial life challenges the perceived boundary between biological and non-biological systems

Instantiating intelligence in machines does not seem to pose the same conceptual challenges as instantiating "life" in non-biological substrates.

Sara Imari Walker and Sam Harris engage in a conversation that delves into the very essence of what constitutes life. They consider whether the term "artificial life" truly conveys the profound challenge to our understanding of life and whether it can be realized in a machine. Walker critiques the term "artificial," as it seems to suggest that creations of human technology are somehow less natural and not part of a fundamental description of nature. She proposes that there is an evolutionary continuity between biology and technology, and that the same physical laws that led to the rise of biological life might well be at work through us to create other forms of living or intelligent entities.

Sam Harris questions the common distinction between biological and non-biological systems, considering such dividing lines as possibly provincial. He highlights that while many are ready to accept artificial intelligences as truly intelligent, society struggles more with accepting non-biological substrates as hosting "life."

The distinction between "wet" and "dry" life may be overly provincial, and a proper definition of life should be substrate-agnostic.

Harris continues by suggesting that if humans were to create synthetic life that was cellular and "wet," it would likely be acknowledged as life without hesitation. This contrasts with the hesitation to rec ...

Here’s what you’ll find in our full summary

Registered users get access to the Full Podcast Summary and Additional Materials. It’s easy and free!
Start your free trial today

The concept of "artificial life" and whether it's a contradiction in terms

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The statement suggests that creating intelligent machines is seen as less challenging conceptually than creating life-like entities in non-biological forms. This highlights a distinction in how society perceives the boundaries between artificial intelligence and artificial life. The idea is that while intelligence in machines is more readily accepted, defining life in non-biological substrates poses a greater philosophical and conceptual challenge. This distinction underscores the complex debate around the nature of life and the potential for artificial systems to exhibit lifelike characteristics.
  • The distinction between "wet" and "dry" life relates to categorizing life forms based on their physical composition. "Wet life" typically describes biological organisms that rely on water for their functions, while "dry life" often alludes to artificial or machine-based life forms that do not require water. The idea that a proper definition of life should be substrate-agnostic means that the concept of life should not be limited by the specific materials or environments in which it exists, suggesting that life can potentially manifest in various forms beyond traditional biological settings. This viewpoint challenges the conventional boundaries of what is considered alive, emphasizing the need for a more inclusive and adaptable understanding of life.
  • The statement highlights a societal bias towards recognizing artificial intelligence as intelligent while hesitating to acknowledge ...

Counterarguments

  • The term "artificial" may be appropriate to distinguish between life forms that have arisen through natural evolutionary processes and those that have been intentionally designed and created by humans, reflecting a significant difference in origin.
  • The conceptual challenges of instantiating "life" in non-biological substrates may stem from the complex interplay of biological processes that are not yet fully understood or replicable in machines, suggesting that intelligence and life are fundamentally different phenomena.
  • The distinction between "wet" and "dry" life acknowledges the current understanding of life as a phenomenon that arises from complex biochemical reactions, which are not yet replicable in "dry" systems, indicating that substrate may indeed be relevant.
  • A substrate-agnostic definition of life could prematurely broaden the concept of life to include systems that do not exhibit the characteristics of life as currently understood, potentially diluting the meaning of the term.
  • While there may be an evolutionary continuity between biology and technology, the processes and outcomes of biological evolution and technological development are governed by different mechanisms and goals, which could justify maintaining a distinction between the two.
  • The hesitation to accept non-biological substrates as hosting "life" may be based on a rigorous applicat ...

Get access to the context and additional materials

So you can understand the full picture and form your own opinion.
Get access for free
#388 — What Is Life?

Theories like assembly theory and constructor theory that attempt to explain the origin and evolution of life

Sara Imari Walker, Lee Cronin, and David Deutsch explore assembly theory and constructor theory, two cutting-edge theoretical frameworks shedding light on the origin and evolution of complexity in the universe.

Assembly theory

Walker and Cronin have developed assembly theory to tackle the problem of the origin of life. This approach posits that objects observed in living systems own their existence to hierarchically constructed, information-rich structures.

Assembly theory posits that complex objects can only be constructed from other objects that already exist, forming a hierarchical, information-rich structure.

Assembly theory argues that complex objects with many independent parts, like a cell phone or DNA, cannot spontaneously come into existence. Everything complex needs a history of step-by-step construction from simpler parts, implying a selection process over time.

The "assembly index" measures the minimum number of steps required to construct an object, and there appears to be a threshold complexity above which spontaneous formation becomes exponentially unlikely.

Walker uses chemistry and LEGOs as analogies for the hierarchical construction of matter, where bonds between atoms or the combination of simple bricks creates increasingly complex structures. However, with every level of complexity, the chances of spontaneous formation drop exponentially. Thus, most structural creations share the same construction history, developing increased complexity and novelty gradually over time. The "assembly index" is introduced as a measure for the depth of history or steps required to create an object, emphasizing that truly novel objects appear at the tips of this assembly process. Walker suggests that for these objects to persist, they must be reproducible with all their information, requiring an evolutionary lineage and time for construction.

Walker extends this concept to evolutionary biology by suggesting that some components of living individuals are billions of years old, having been continuously constructed over time on Earth.

Constructor theory

Harris segues into the related domain of constructor theory, introduced by David Deutsch, to complement assembly theory's perspective on life's origin.

Constructor theory aims to reframe the laws of physics in terms of what is possible or impossible to do, rather than initial conditions and laws of motion.

Constructor theory seeks to explain the universe not with initial conditions and laws of motion but rather through a lens of what transformations are possible or impossible.

Constructor theory emphasizes the role of " ...

Here’s what you’ll find in our full summary

Registered users get access to the Full Podcast Summary and Additional Materials. It’s easy and free!
Start your free trial today

Theories like assembly theory and constructor theory that attempt to explain the origin and evolution of life

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Hierarchically constructed, information-rich structures are complex systems that are built in layers or levels, with each level contributing to the overall organization and function of the system. These structures contain a wealth of information encoded in their arrangement and interactions, allowing for the emergence of sophisticated properties and behaviors. The hierarchical nature implies that components at lower levels combine to form higher-level entities, creating a network of interdependent elements. This organization facilitates the construction and evolution of complex objects by building upon simpler components in a structured and ordered manner.
  • The assembly index measures the minimum number of steps needed to construct an object, indicating the depth of its construction history. There is a complexity threshold above which spontaneous formation becomes exponentially unlikely, implying that highly complex objects require a significant history of step-by-step construction. This concept suggests that truly novel and complex objects emerge at the tips of this assembly process, requiring a reproducible evolutionary lineage and time for construction.
  • Constructor theory, introduced by David Deutsch, aims to explain the universe by focusing on what transformations are possible or impossible, rather than starting from initial conditions and laws of motion. It emphasizes the concept of "constructors," which are systems that enable the existence of other objects by defining what can or cannot happen within a given system. This theory provides a new perspective on physics by highlighting the role of these constructors in shaping the possibilities and constraints within the universe. By reframing physics in terms of what can be done rather than what is, constructor theory offers a fresh approach to understanding the fundamental principles governing the behavior of physical systems.
  • In constructor theory, "constructors" are physical systems that set the conditions for other objects to exist by limiting the range of possible transformations that can ...

Counterarguments

  • Assembly theory may oversimplify the complexity of life's origins by focusing primarily on hierarchical construction, potentially neglecting other factors such as environmental influences or the role of randomness and chaos in the formation of complex structures.
  • The concept of an "assembly index" might not capture all aspects of complexity, as it is based on a stepwise construction model that may not apply universally to all natural processes or may be difficult to quantify in practice.
  • Constructor theory's focus on what is possible or impossible could be criticized for being too abstract or lacking empirical grounding, as it may not always provide clear predictions that can be tested or falsified.
  • The emphasis on knowledge as a "constructor" in the universe might be seen as anthropocentric or biased towards human-like intelligence, potentially overlooking other forms of information processing or storage in nature.
  • Both theories might be challenged for not yet providing a complete explanation for the origin of life, as they are still theoretical frameworks that require further development and empi ...

Get access to the context and additional materials

So you can understand the full picture and form your own opinion.
Get access for free

Create Summaries for anything on the web

Download the Shortform Chrome extension for your browser

Shortform Extension CTA