Podcasts > Making Sense with Sam Harris > #384 — Stress Testing Our Democracy

#384 — Stress Testing Our Democracy

By Waking Up with Sam Harris

In this episode of the Making Sense with Sam Harris podcast, Barton Gellman shares insights from tabletop exercises simulating an authoritarian presidency. The exercises explored alarming scenarios of abusing federal power, such as weaponizing government agencies against political opponents and suppressing protests with military force.

Gellman also delves into the legal ambiguities surrounding states' ability to challenge federal overreach. The conversation highlights how new laws in some states allow partisan officials to interfere with election certification, threatening chaos if candidates refuse to accept defeat. With the expected narrow margins in swing states, Gellman emphasizes the need to prepare for potential post-election turmoil.

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#384 — Stress Testing Our Democracy

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#384 — Stress Testing Our Democracy

1-Page Summary

Scenario planning and war gaming for a potential authoritarian presidency

The Brennan Center's Democracy Futures Project conducted tabletop exercises simulating how an authoritarian president could abuse federal power, as detailed by Barton Gellman. The exercises involved former officials and leaders playing roles surrounding an authoritarian president's administration.

The exercises tested scenarios such as using federal agencies against political enemies, deploying the military against protesters, and mass expelling undocumented immigrants

Gellman indicates the exercises showcased an authoritarian president's potential to wield power in alarming ways, such as prosecuting political enemies and repressive tactics against dissent and immigration. While opposition roles sought to mitigate these actions, the exercises revealed a concerning lack of clear legal mechanisms to outright halt them.

Tensions between federal and state/local authority in resisting executive overreach

Conversations in the exercises highlighted the ambiguous boundaries around state and local officials' authority to challenge federal overreach from an authoritarian president.

Barton Gellman urges state officials like governors and attorneys general to thoroughly understand their legal powers beforehand to mount an effective defense against misuse of federal authority. Coordinated action across party lines could prove critical.

Threats to election integrity and the peaceful transfer of power

According to Gellman, Republican state legislators are enacting laws to gain more partisan control over certifying election results.

New laws allow partisan officials to refuse certifying results or launch dubious "investigations" that could delay or undermine voters' will

Gellman emphasizes this partisan control over certification threatens chaos and potential coup attempts if losing candidates refuse to accept defeat, departing from the historically non-partisan, ministerial role.

While landslide victories could mitigate concerns, close results are expected, prompting preparation for post-election turmoil

Though landslide wins could short-circuit integrity issues, Gellman agrees with Sam Harris the expected narrow margins in swing states raise risks of unrest, requiring pro-democracy advocates to prepare for potential post-election protests or violence.

Throughout, Gellman indicates efforts ostensibly aimed at "election integrity" may actually intend to suppress voting by racial minorities and low-income citizens who tend to support Democrats through measures like the SAVE Act, which addresses the implausible issue of non-citizen voting.

1-Page Summary

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Counterarguments

  • The exercises may overestimate the likelihood of an authoritarian presidency and the scenarios might not reflect the full range of checks and balances in the US political system.
  • The scenarios might not account for the role of the judiciary in curbing executive overreach.
  • The focus on an authoritarian presidency could overshadow other, more systemic threats to democracy that are not centered around a single leader.
  • The assumption that state officials would resist federal overreach may not hold true in all cases, as some may support or be indifferent to the president's actions.
  • The exercises might not fully consider the role of civil society, media, and public opinion in resisting authoritarian practices.
  • The suggestion that new laws are aimed at partisan control of election results could be challenged by those who believe these laws are necessary to ensure election integrity.
  • The idea that narrow margins in elections inherently raise risks of unrest could be seen as undervaluing the resilience of democratic institutions and the electorate's commitment to peaceful transitions of power.
  • The focus on Republican state legislators enacting laws could be criticized for partisanship, as concerns about election integrity and the role of state legislatures in election processes are not exclusive to one party.
  • The claim that efforts aimed at "election integrity" may suppress voting could be countered by arguments that such measures are intended to prevent fraud and maintain the credibility of elections.
  • The assertion that non-citizen voting is an implausible issue could be contested by those who argue that any amount of voter fraud, no matter how small, should be addressed.

Actionables

  • You can educate yourself on the legal boundaries of federal and state powers by reading up on the Constitution and federalist papers to better understand the division of power in the United States. This knowledge will help you recognize when federal authority may be overstepping and what legal grounds states have to resist. For example, familiarize yourself with the Tenth Amendment, which reserves powers not delegated to the federal government to the states or the people.
  • Start a local discussion group focused on nonpartisan election integrity to foster community awareness and preparedness for election-related issues. By bringing together neighbors and friends, regardless of their political affiliation, you can create a space to discuss the importance of fair and transparent election processes. This could involve inviting local election officials to speak, sharing information on the certification process, and discussing ways to ensure that all community members' votes are counted.
  • Volunteer as a poll worker or election observer to directly contribute to a fair electoral process. By participating in the election process, you gain firsthand experience and insight into how elections are run and what checks and balances are in place to prevent abuse. This role also positions you to witness any irregularities and report them to the appropriate authorities, thereby playing a part in safeguarding the democratic process.

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#384 — Stress Testing Our Democracy

Scenario planning and war gaming for a potential authoritarian presidency

Under the direction of the Brennan Center's Democracy Futures Project, experts including Barton Gellman have participated in tabletop exercises simulating the potential threats posed by an authoritarian presidency and the responses available to pro-democracy advocates.

The Brennan Center's Democracy Futures Project conducted tabletop exercises to simulate how an authoritarian president could abuse federal power and how pro-democracy advocates might respond

Participants in the Brennan Center’s exercises included former officials and leaders from across the political spectrum. They undertook various roles such as cabinet members, supportive governors, judges, and executive agencies, all surrounding an authoritarian president.

The exercises involved former officials and leaders from across the political spectrum playing the roles of the authoritarian president, their cabinet and supporters, and those seeking to restrain the president's abuses

Barton Gellman details that they tested scenarios involving the president using federal agencies and law enforcement to target political enemies, utilizing the Department of Justice, the power of antitrust against companies, and the IRS against nonprofits.

Additionally, they explored the potential use of military force against protesters and the mass expulsion of migrants by deploying federal law enforcement in cities for mass arrests.

The exercises tested scenarios such as the president using federal agencies and law enforcement to target political enemies, deploy the military against protesters, and mass expel undocumented immigrants

Gellman indicates that an authoritarian president might use his power in alarming ways including the prosecution of political enemies and unfolding repressive tactics against dissent and immigration.

Participants playing supportive roles for the authoritarian figure showcased a keen ability to exercise power, while those in opposition sought ways to mitigate their actions.

The outcomes of these exercises ...

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Scenario planning and war gaming for a potential authoritarian presidency

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Counterarguments

  • The effectiveness of tabletop exercises in predicting real-world outcomes can be limited, as they may not capture the full complexity of actual political dynamics and public reactions.
  • The scenarios may be biased by the participants' own political views and experiences, potentially leading to a narrow range of outcomes.
  • The assumption that the military would always act as a neutral body and resist unlawful orders may not hold true in every situation, as historical examples show that military loyalty can vary.
  • The focus on authoritarian threats may overshadow other significant threats to democracy, such as systemic issues within democratic institutions or external interference.
  • The exercises might overestimate the power of an authoritarian president by not fully considering the checks and balances provided by the U.S. Constitution and the resilience of American democratic institutions.
  • The notion that there are often no clear legal mechanisms to stop an authoritarian president could be challenged by legal scholars who argue that the U.S. legal system does have robust mechanisms, though they may not always be applied effectively or swiftly.
  • The exercises may not account for the role of civil society, media, and public opinio ...

Actionables

  • You can educate yourself on the checks and balances of your government by reading the constitution and other legal documents to understand how power is distributed and regulated. By familiarizing yourself with these documents, you'll be better equipped to recognize when actions may be overstepping legal boundaries and what mechanisms are in place to challenge such actions.
  • Start a book club focused on historical and contemporary accounts of democratic resilience to foster a community that values democratic principles. By discussing books like "On Tyranny" by Timothy Snyder or "How Democracies Die" by Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt, you and your peers can gain insights into how democracies have been challenged and what has been effective in preserving them.
  • Encourage critical thinking by starting c ...

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#384 — Stress Testing Our Democracy

Tensions between federal and state/local authority in resisting executive overreach

In the face of potential executive overreach from the presidency, the role of state and local authorities becomes increasingly vital. However, the exact bounds of their power in challenging federal overreach remain murky, requiring careful navigation and understanding.

Governors, state attorneys general, and other state/local officials have important powers to resist federal overreach, but the boundaries of their authority are often unclear

Conversations in tabletop exercises have underscored the lack of clear precedent or understanding regarding the powers state authorities hold. One such conversation pointed to governors’ potential ability to challenge the president's federalization of the National Guard. However, uncertainties in legal principles stand in the way.

Barton Gellman speaks of an exercise involving former governor of New Jersey Christie Todd Whitman, who sought ways to prevent the president from federalizing the National Guard against her will. This scenario illustrates the ambiguity surrounding a governor's capacity to counteract presidential authority in such matters.

State officials, particularly governors and state attorneys general, must do their ...

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Tensions between federal and state/local authority in resisting executive overreach

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Counterarguments

  • The federal government has constitutional primacy in certain areas, and state resistance may sometimes undermine national unity or federal initiatives that are legitimately within the purview of the executive branch.
  • The Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution establishes that federal law takes precedence over state law, which could limit the extent to which states can resist federal actions.
  • The ambiguity of legal principles and precedents may be a necessary aspect of the law, allowing for flexibility and adaptation to new challenges rather than being a flaw that needs to be addressed.
  • The potential for governors to refuse to deploy the National Guard or limit federal agents' actions could lead to conflicts that impair national security or emergency responses.
  • The focus on preparing to resist an authoritarian president might divert attention and resources from other pressing state issues that require collaboration with the federal government.
  • Coordinated action by state and local officials across party lines, while potentially beneficial in checking executive overreach, could als ...

Actionables

  • You can educate yourself on the basics of federalism and the role of state authority by reading accessible resources like the "Annenberg Guide to the United States Constitution" to better understand the balance of power.
  • Understanding the structure of government and the distribution of power between federal and state levels is essential. This knowledge will allow you to form informed opinions and engage in discussions about state versus federal authority with clarity.
  • Start a digital newsletter or blog that highlights instances of state and local authorities effectively using their powers, focusing on bipartisan efforts and diverse political perspectives.
  • By documenting and sharing examples of state and local governments taking a stand, you contribute to a broader awareness of how these powers are used in practice. This can serve as a resource for others interested in the topic and can foster a community of informed citizens.
  • Encourage dialogue in your local community by h ...

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#384 — Stress Testing Our Democracy

Threats to election integrity and the peaceful transfer of power

Barton Gellman and Sam Harris discuss disturbing trends that indicate the election process in the United States may be under threat due to partisan motivations.

There are growing efforts by Republican state legislators and election officials to insert more partisan control over the certification of election results

Gellman underscores the movement by some Republican state legislators and election officials to gain more partisan control over the certification process of election results.

New laws and rules in some states allow partisan election boards to refuse to certify results or launch dubious "investigations" that could delay or undermine the will of voters

Gellman highlights moves in several states, particularly in Georgia, where political control over the certification of election results is intensifying through new legislation. For example, an Elections Board member in Georgia refused to certify the results of a primary election and instead demanded investigatory power—even though he supported the false claim that the 2020 election was stolen. The governor also appointed three Republicans to the state election board, which has adopted a rule allowing county election officials to decline certification in favor of their own investigations.

This threatens to create chaos and potential for an outright coup attempt if a losing candidate refuses to accept defeat

Gellman emphasizes that historically, the certification role was ministerial and non-partisan, with disputes traditionally resolved in the courts. New rules allowing partisan officials to potentially delay or even overturn election results pose a real threat to democracy, risking chaos and coup attempts if candidates refuse to accept defeat.

While Democrats are working to counter these efforts legally and legislatively, there is a risk that both sides may refuse to accept a narrow loss, leading to instability and unrest

Landslide victories by either side could potentially short-circuit these concerns, but the electoral map points to very close, contested results in swing states

Gellman agrees with Sam Harris that a landslide victory could alleviate worries about election integrity and the possibility of protests or riots, as the clear result would overshadow small controversies.

Preparing for potential post-election turmoil, from protests to violence, is a major focus for pro-democracy advocates

Nevertheless, Gellman notes that the election is expected to be determined by a thin margin in a few key states, suggesting tight and hotly disputed outcomes. This potential for narrow results has pro-democracy advocates concerned and preparing for possible post-election unrest.

Throughout the conversation, Gellma ...

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Threats to election integrity and the peaceful transfer of power

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Clarifications

  • In Georgia, recent actions have intensified political control over the certification of election results. For example, a member of the Elections Board refused to certify primary election results and pushed for investigatory power despite supporting false claims about the 2020 election. Additionally, the governor appointed three Republicans to the state election board, enabling county election officials to delay certification in favor of their own investigations. These moves have raised concerns about partisan influence over the election certification process and its potential impact on democracy.
  • The SAVE Act is criticized for purportedly addressing non-existent issues like non-citizen voting, which is seen as implausible. Critics argue that such measures could lead to voter disenfranchisement, particularly affecting racial minorities and low-income citizens. These efforts are viewed as Republican-led and strategically aimed at suppressing voters who are more likely to support Democrats. The SAVE Act is part of a broader discussion on election integrity and voter suppression tactics in the United States.
  • Election laws and litigation altering electoral rules involve legal changes and court cases that impact how elections are conducted, including issues like voter eligibility, ballot access, and the certification of election results. These changes can affect who can vote, how votes are counted, and how election outcomes are determined, shaping the democratic process. Political parties often engage in legal battles to influence these rules, seeking advantages that align with their interests and strategies. The evolving landscape of election laws and litigation can significantly impact the fairness, transparency, and integrity of the electoral system.
  • Partisan control over ele ...

Counterarguments

  • Efforts to increase scrutiny over election processes can be seen as a legitimate attempt to ensure election integrity and prevent fraud.
  • Partisan control over election certification is not inherently undemocratic if checks and balances are in place and if the officials are acting within the law.
  • The potential for chaos or a coup is not necessarily a direct consequence of new election laws; it could also arise from misinformation or a lack of public trust in the electoral process.
  • Democrats and Republicans alike have a vested interest in the stability of the electoral process, and bipartisan efforts have historically been made to secure elections.
  • Refusing to accept a narrow loss is not exclusive to one party and can be a symptom of broader political polarization rather than a result of specific legislative changes.
  • Preparing for post-election turmoil does not imply an expectation of violence but can be a prudent measure to ensure public safety and order.
  • The narrative of election fraud, while controversial, may be believed by some to be a genuine concern that requires legislative action.
  • The SAVE Act and similar legis ...

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