Podcasts > Making Sense with Sam Harris > #357 — America & World Order

#357 — America & World Order

By Waking Up with Sam Harris

Dive into the turbulent waters of geopolitics and democracy with Sam Harris and guest Bret Stephens in the latest episode of "Making Sense with Sam Harris." In this discussion, the focus turns to the ramifications of America's shifting stance on global leadership. As Republican admiration for autocratic figures such as Vladimir Putin grows, Harris and Stephens explore the moral and political implications of this changing paradigm. They highlight the concerning trend within American politics, accompanied by a critical examination of media figures like Tucker Carlson, and ponder the repercussions for democratic values and international order.

Navigating from American politics to the complexities of the Middle East, the podcast also delves into the contentious topic of Israeli-Palestinian relations and the ongoing strife in Gaza. The thorny issues of settler colonialism, anti-Semitism, and the challenging but necessary pursuit of a two-state solution are unpacked, offering listeners a multifaceted view of this enduring conflict. The conversation then pivots to a future-forward look at the 2024 U.S. Presidential Election, speculating on its potential impact on America's moral leadership and the effects of President Joe Biden's age on his candidacy. This episode offers a comprehensive analysis of the current and future state of America's role in a rapidly changing world order.

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#357 — America & World Order

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#357 — America & World Order

1-Page Summary

America's Declining Global Leadership

America's global leadership appears troubled, with recent political developments causing concern. Sam Harris and Bret Stephens discuss Republican admiration for autocrats, notably Russian President Vladimir Putin, as an alarming trend. Tucker Carlson, among others, is highlighted for portraying Putin in a positive light, despite his history of oppressive actions. This new stance marks a departure from the traditional Republican worldview and is seen as morally and politically objectionable.

The death of Russian opposition figure Alexei Navalny is another focal point, symbolizing a moral divide between Western democracies and Putin’s regime. Navalny's murder underscores the challenges faced by dissidents in authoritarian states, and there's a proposal for the "Navalny Act" to seize Russian assets to support Ukraine.

The nuclear blackmail potential in the conflict in Ukraine is discussed, with concerns of Putin using nuclear threats to leverage geopolitical gains. However, the actual use of nuclear weapons is considered improbable due to the potential detrimental impact on Russia itself.

Israel, Palestine, and War in Gaza

The issue of Israel, Palestine, and the strife in Gaza is critical in global geopolitics. The notion of Israeli settler colonialism is a contentious point, impacting the peace process and discussions around Palestinian statehood. Anti-Semitism accusations frequently emerge in these debates, illustrating the sensitivity and complexity of the conflict.

The viability of a two-state solution is continuously deliberated, with numerous factors affecting its potential realization. This solution remains a challenging yet crucial objective for those seeking a peaceful resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

2024 U.S. Presidential Election

The 2024 U.S. Presidential Election is already shaping up as a critical juncture. Discussions encompass the potential for a victory by former President Donald Trump, with his ideology, particularly on moral leadership, expected to be influential in the election landscape. Bret Stephens has contemplated this through hypothetical scenarios that consider Trump's re-election bid.

Joe Biden's age is poised as a significant issue in the upcoming election. As the conversation unfolds, there will likely be an emphasis on the demanding nature of the presidential role and whether Biden's age could influence his and the Democratic Party's chances in 2024.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The Navalny Act is a proposed legislation that aims to seize Russian assets to support Ukraine in response to the challenges faced by dissidents in authoritarian states, particularly in the context of Alexei Navalny's situation. It is part of international efforts to hold accountable those involved in the poisoning and imprisonment of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny. The Act is designed to impose sanctions on individuals and entities linked to human rights abuses, kleptocracy, and corruption in Russia, specifically targeting those responsible for Navalny's plight. The Navalny Act represents a response by Western democracies to address the moral and political implications of actions taken against dissidents in authoritarian regimes.
  • Settler colonialism involves colonizers establishing permanent settlements on occupied territory to replace the existing society with their own. This form of colonization is distinct from exploitation colonialism, focusing on long-term settlement rather than resource extraction. Settler colonialism often leads to conflicts over land, sovereignty, and indigenous rights. It has been a significant historical phenomenon, particularly in the context of European colonial empires.
  • The two-state solution in the context of Israel and Palestine proposes the creation of separate, independent states for each group to address the long-standing conflict. It envisions a sovereign Palestinian state alongside Israel, with defined borders and self-governance. The viability of this solution is debated due to challenges like territorial disputes, security concerns, and differing political aspirations. International efforts continue to support negotiations towards achieving a lasting peace agreement based on this framework.
  • Bret Stephens, a political commentator, is known for analyzing and discussing various political scenarios. In this context, his contemplation of Trump's re-election bid suggests that he is considering the possibility and implications of Donald Trump running for president again in the 2024 election. Stephens may be exploring how Trump's previous presidency and policies could impact a potential future bid for the presidency. This contemplation could involve assessing Trump's popularity, potential strategies, and the broader political landscape leading up to the election.
  • Joe Biden's age being highlighted as a significant issue in the upcoming election is due to concerns about his ability to handle the demanding role of the presidency effectively at an advanced age. This discussion often revolves around his health, stamina, and cognitive abilities, with some questioning if he is fit to serve a full term. Age-related concerns in politics are not uncommon, as voters and analysts assess the potential impact of a candidate's age on their performance and decision-making abilities.

Counterarguments

  • Republican admiration for autocrats may be overstated, and the views of a few individuals like Tucker Carlson do not necessarily represent the entire party's stance.
  • Some argue that engaging with countries led by autocrats is a pragmatic approach to foreign policy that can lead to better outcomes than isolation or confrontation.
  • The death of Alexei Navalny, while tragic, may not directly influence the broader geopolitical dynamics between Western democracies and Russia.
  • The "Navalny Act" could be criticized for potentially escalating tensions with Russia rather than contributing to a resolution of the conflict.
  • Nuclear deterrence theory suggests that the threat of nuclear weapons can be a stabilizing factor in international relations, preventing conflicts from escalating.
  • The concept of Israeli settler colonialism is disputed by those who argue that Jewish historical ties to the land and legal purchases of property complicate the narrative.
  • Some believe that accusations of anti-Semitism are sometimes used to silence legitimate criticism of Israeli policies.
  • There are proponents of alternative solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict who argue that a two-state solution may no longer be viable and advocate for a one-state solution or other frameworks.
  • The significance of the 2024 U.S. Presidential Election may be overstated, as structural issues and long-term trends can be more influential than any single election.
  • Donald Trump's potential victory in 2024 could be seen as a reflection of democratic choice, and his policies may have support among certain segments of the population.
  • Joe Biden's age might be considered less relevant than his experience, wisdom, and the team he assembles to govern effectively.

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#357 — America & World Order

America's Declining Global Leadership

Sam Harris and Bret Stephens explore troubling developments within American politics, including Republican admiration for foreign autocrats, the implications of the death of an opposition figure, and the complexities of the conflict in Ukraine.

Republican Fondness for Putin

Sam Harris comments on a worrying trend among Republicans, led by figures such as Tucker Carlson, to admire Russian President Vladimir Putin, despite his history of reprehensible actions such as imprisoning journalists and killing political opponents. Harris questions the moral and political stance of Republicans who, under the influence of Donald Trump, have embraced amoral or even admiring attitudes toward autocratic leaders like Putin.

Bret Stephens observes a shift within the Republican party, where the behavior of some members now mirrors what they had once criticized—the irrational praise of despotic regimes. Specifically, he describes Tucker Carlson's televised depiction of Russian grocery stores as superior to those in America, an activity that overlooks the broader economic struggles of Russian citizens and once would have been criticized by Republicans themselves.

Implications of Navalny's Death

The conversation shifts to the death of Alexei Navalny, an opposition leader in Russia whom Harris regards as a symbol of moral and political courage. Harris points out that Navalny should be a household name, celebrated for his resistance to state power, and that his murder is a stark reminder of the moral disparity between the West and Putin’s regime.

The speakers highlight the importance of remembering and honoring figures like Navalny because they exemplify the values that free societies should champion. Bill Browder proposes the "Navalny Act" to seize Russia's frozen assets and direct them to aid Ukraine, sending a powerful message to Putin and pot ...

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America's Declining Global Leadership

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Republican admiration for foreign autocrats, such as Vladimir Putin, has raised concerns due to their history of undemocratic actions like suppressing dissent and targeting political opponents. Figures like Tucker Carlson have been noted for expressing admiration for leaders like Putin, which contrasts with traditional Republican values of promoting democracy and human rights. This trend reflects a shift within the Republican party towards a more favorable view of authoritarian leaders, a departure from previous criticisms of such regimes. The admiration for foreign autocrats among some Republicans has sparked debates about the party's evolving stance on global leadership and democratic principles.
  • The conflict in Ukraine involves a struggle between Ukrainian forces and Russian-backed separatists in the eastern regions of Ukraine, primarily Donetsk and Luhansk. It began in 2014 following Russia's annexation of Crimea and has since resulted in a significant loss of life and displacement of civilians. The conflict is complex due to historical, cultural, and geopolitical factors, with Ukraine seeking to maintain its territorial integrity while facing challenges from pro-Russian separatist movements supported by Russia. Efforts to reach a peaceful resolution have been ongoing, with international actors involved in negotiations to de-escalate tensions and find a lasting solution.
  • Alexei Navalny was a prominent Russian opposition leader known for his anti-corruption activism and criticism of the Russian government. His death raised concerns about the state of democracy and human rights in Russia. Navalny's significance lies in his role as a symbol of resistance against authoritarianism and his advocacy for political reform in Russia. His murder underscored the risks faced by dissenters in autocratic regimes and highlighted the ongoing struggle for freedom of speech and political dissent in Russia.
  • The "Navalny Act" is a proposed legislation named after Alexei Navalny, a prominent Russian opposition leader. The ...

Counterarguments

  • The admiration for foreign autocrats among some Republicans could be seen as a critique of the status quo or a desire for stronger leadership, rather than a genuine endorsement of autocratic methods.
  • The portrayal of Russian grocery stores by Tucker Carlson might be intended to provoke thought or debate rather than to express genuine admiration for Russia's economic system.
  • The death of Alexei Navalny, while tragic, may not resonate as a household name in the West due to a variety of factors, including media coverage, public interest, and geopolitical focus.
  • The "Navalny Act" could be criticized for potentially escalating tensions with Russia or for the feasibility and legality of seizing and redirecting a sovereign nation's assets.
  • The potential consequences of a Russian victory in Ukraine might be overstated, and the situation could be more complex, with some arguing that increased U.S. involvement in Europe could exacerbate tensions rather than deter aggression.
  • The discussion of nuclear blackmail might o ...

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#357 — America & World Order

Israel, Palestine, and War in Gaza

The long-standing conflict in Gaza is a deeply complex and contentious issue that Sam Harris acknowledges will be part of the discussion.

Charges of Israeli Settler Colonialism

While the context is not particularly detailed in the outline, one of the central points of debate in the conflict is the charge of Israeli settler colonialism. The matter typically involves the discussion around Israeli settlements and their impact on the peace process and Palestinian statehood.

Anti-Semitism as Double Standards

In discussions about the conflict, claims of double standards often arise, with one side accusing the other of anti-Semitism in response to criticism. This is a sensitive aspect of the discourse that tends to polarize opinions further.

Prospects for a Two-State Solution

The concept of a two-state solution, which envisages independent Isr ...

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Israel, Palestine, and War in Gaza

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Settler colonialism involves colonizers establishing permanent settlements in a territory to replace the existing society with their own. This form of colonization is distinct from exploitation colonialism, focusing on the settlers' long-term presence and control. It often leads to conflicts over land, resources, and power dynamics between the settlers and the indigenous population. The concept of Israeli settler colonialism specifically relates to the establishment of Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories, impacting the peace process and statehood discussions.
  • Israeli settlements in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are communities built by Israel in territories captured during the 1967 Six-Day War, including the West Bank and East Jerusalem. These settlements are considered illegal under international law by most of the international community, as they are seen as hindering the establishment of a viable Palestinian state. The expansion of Israeli settlements has been a major point of contention in peace negotiations, as they are viewed as a significant obstacle to achieving a two-state solution. The presence and growth of these settlements complicate efforts to reach a peaceful resolution to the conflict by altering the demographic and territorial realities on the ground.
  • Claims of double standards in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict often involve situations where different criteria are applied to Israel compared to other countries. When one side perceives that Israel is being judged more harshly or unfairly, they may accuse the critics of holding a double standard. This can lead to accusations of anti-Semitism when criticism of Israel is seen as disproportionately targeting the Jewish state, rather than being based on legitimate concerns or actions. Such accusations can be contentious and complex, as they involve navigating the fine line between legitimate criticism of Israeli policies and actions and the inappropriate demonization of Israel based on anti-Semitic beliefs.
  • The two-state solution for Israel and Palestine involves creating separate, independent states for each group to peacefully coexist. The viability of this solution is challenged by factors like territorial disputes, security concerns, a ...

Counterarguments

  • The complexity of the Gaza conflict might be acknowledged by Sam Harris, but others argue that the fundamental issues are clear and that the complexity argument is sometimes used to avoid taking a clear moral or political stance.
  • Some argue that the term "settler colonialism" is not applicable to the Israeli context, as Jewish historical ties to the land and the nature of Jewish immigration differ from classic colonialism.
  • It is argued that Israeli settlements are not the primary obstacle to peace, but rather issues such as security concerns, Palestinian political division, and refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state play significant roles.
  • Accusations of anti-Semitism are sometimes contested on the grounds that criticism of Israeli policies does not necessarily equate to anti-Semitism, and conflating the two can stifle legitimate debate.
  • Some believe that a two-state solution is no longer via ...

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#357 — America & World Order

2024 U.S. Presidential Election

The upcoming 2024 U.S. Presidential Election is poised to be a significant event, with discussions around former President Donald Trump's ideology and President Joe Biden's age taking center stage in political discourse.

Prospects of a Trump Victory

Stephens delves into the notion of Trumpian ideology, especially the moral element in leadership, and its impact on Trump's potential re-election. There's a suggestion that the ideologies which Trump embodies could play a crucial role in influencing the 2024 election outcomes. Stephens had previously explored this in a thought experiment through his New York Times column, which likely engaged with various scenarios around Trump's bid for re-election.

Biden's Age Problem

In an upcoming discussion titled "the trouble with Joe Biden," Bret Stephens and Sam Harri ...

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2024 U.S. Presidential Election

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • As individuals age, there can be concerns about their cognitive abilities, physical health, and overall stamina. In the context of the U.S. presidency, the demanding nature of the role requires sharp decision-making, high energy levels, and the ability to handle stress effectively. Voters and commentators may question whether an older candidate like Joe Biden, if re-elected, can maintain the vigor and mental acuity needed to effectively lead the country for another term.
  • The presidency of the United States is a position of immense power and responsibility, leading the executive branch of the government. The president is tasked with making critical decisions on domestic and foreign policy, overseeing the implementation o ...

Counterarguments

  • Trump's ideology may not be the sole or primary factor in voters' decision-making; economic performance, policy outcomes, and other candidates' platforms could also be significant.
  • The moral element of leadership, while important, is subjective and voters may prioritize different moral or ethical standards.
  • Concerns about Biden's age might be mitigated by his experience, the effectiveness of his administration, or the presence of a capable vice president and team.
  • The presidency's demanding nature is a valid concern, but modern medicine and support systems can help older presidents manage the workload.
  • Discussions around Trump's ideology and Biden's age might not dominate th ...

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