Podcasts > Making Sense with Sam Harris > #353 — Race & Reason

#353 — Race & Reason

By Waking Up with Sam Harris

Dive into complex social questions in the latest episode of "Making Sense with Sam Harris," where host Sam Harris engages with guests Rory Stewart and Coleman Hughes on the sensitive nexus of race, policy, and ideology. Searching for the nuance in heated debates, the trio skin deep into how crime statistics intersect with police practices and racial dynamics in America's urban landscapes. Hughes shares NYPD data alongside personal reflections to discuss the ripple effects of crime rates on communities and law enforcement, touching on hard truths about public perception and police vigilance.

The podcast goes beyond simple statistical analysis, as the speakers tackle topics like diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) policies, academia's ideological leanings, and the battle for colorblindness in public policy. They critically examine the divergence between academic jargon and the lived experience of marginalized groups, drawing on the seldom-agreed-upon term "Latinx" as a case study. The conversation also questions the ideological underpinnings of university policies, while Hughes stands firm on the prospects and challenges of a colorblind society—countering the identity politics that have gained traction in contemporary discourse. Join Sam Harris and his guests as they explore these weighty issues, unrestrained by easy answers or ideological simplicity.

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#353 — Race & Reason

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#353 — Race & Reason

1-Page Summary

Police racial bias and crime rates

Harris and Hughes delve into the interplay between police practices and racial dynamics in relation to crime rates in American cities. Hughes shares personal experiences and refers to NYPD statistics to indicate the need for racial awareness in areas with high crime rates. In cities like New York, where crime data shows racial patterns, this reality informs both public perception and police conduct. Officers often operate with heightened safety concerns and suspicion, especially because a disproportionate number of violent crimes are committed by black and Hispanic individuals. Harris introduces Jesse Jackson's candid remarks about feeling safer when a white person is walking behind him at night, mirroring the sensitive and complex association between race and crime that affects even the black community.

Diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) policies

Hughes reminisces about the foundational goals of DEI policies, portraying them as originally intended to promote a more diverse and equitable corporate environment. He explains that DEI had noble aspirations, aiming to create workplaces that offered equal opportunities and greater representation of all groups—a concept his father might have supported back in the 90s. Despite their well-meaning origins, these policies have evolved in the implementation and discourse around them.

Failures of elite ideology

Highlighting a disconnect between elite academic rhetoric and the everyday lives of its subjects, Hughes draws attention to the term "Latinx" as an example. This term, popular among academic elites, is not widely embraced by the Hispanic population, with up to 96% disfavoring or being unaware of it, according to Pew research. This gap suggests a discrepancy between the vocabulary preferred by elites and the terms that resonate with actual community members, revealing a larger issue of failure in elite ideology to connect with the people it aims to represent.

Ideological capture at universities

The conversation turns critical toward universities, proposing that these institutions might be under 'ideological capture', where political beliefs heavily influence their policies. University presidents, for example, have been scrutinized for their reticence to outright condemn antisemitism. Such incidents have escalated to congressional hearings that question institutional responsibilities and leadership roles in protecting free speech while combating hate and discrimination, reflecting society's broader challenge in maintaining impartiality on campuses.

The concept of colorblindness

The concept of colorblindness sparks a thought-provoking discussion between Harris and Hughes. They advocate for the treatment of individuals without considering race and argue to depoliticize racial differences in the public policy domain. Hughes maintains a strong stance in favor of colorblindness, while acknowledging the complexities it presents when addressing racial disparities like crime rates. A notable trend is that colorblindness is losing its positioning as a goal among the political left, replaced by identity politics. This shift, seen during Hughes's TED talk on the topic, signals an ideological move away from striving to treat people without regard to race.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The term "Latinx" is a gender-neutral alternative to Latino or Latina, aiming to be more inclusive of all gender identities within the Latin American community. However, it has faced criticism and resistance among many Hispanics, with a significant portion disfavoring or being unaware of it, according to research. This discrepancy highlights a disconnect between the term preferred by some academic circles and the preferences of the broader Hispanic population. The term's reception underscores the challenge of reconciling evolving language norms with cultural identities within the community.
  • Ideological capture at universities suggests that political beliefs heavily influence institutional policies and decision-making, potentially leading to a lack of impartiality in addressing societal issues. This phenomenon raises concerns about universities prioritizing certain ideologies over academic freedom and diversity of thought. It involves a critique of how universities handle sensitive topics like condemning discrimination and hate speech while upholding principles of free speech and inclusivity. The term highlights the idea that universities may become entrenched in specific ideological perspectives, impacting their ability to maintain neutrality and intellectual diversity.
  • The shift from colorblindness to identity politics signifies a move away from treating individuals without regard to race towards acknowledging and embracing diverse racial identities. Identity politics focuses on how social and political issues intersect with various identity markers like race, gender, and sexuality. This shift reflects a broader societal recognition of the importance of addressing systemic inequalities and acknowledging the unique experiences of different identity groups. This transition has implications for how policies are shaped and how individuals engage in discussions about race and social justice.
  • Jesse Jackson's remarks about feeling safer when a white person is walking behind him at night reflect the complex relationship between race and perceptions of safety. This statement highlights the societal stereotypes and biases that influence how individuals perceive potential threats based on race. Jackson's comment underscores the nuanced ways in which race intersects with personal experiences and perceptions of security in different contexts.

Counterarguments

  • The interpretation of crime statistics and the association with race can perpetuate stereotypes and may not account for underlying socioeconomic factors that contribute to crime.
  • Racial awareness in policing could be seen as a form of profiling, which can lead to discriminatory practices and erode trust between law enforcement and communities.
  • DEI policies may have evolved, but this evolution could be seen as a necessary response to changing societal needs and a deeper understanding of systemic issues.
  • The term "Latinx" might not be widely embraced, but language evolves, and new terms can emerge as part of a process to find more inclusive language that resonates with more people.
  • The concept of 'ideological capture' at universities could be challenged by the view that academic institutions are spaces for diverse ideas and that what is perceived as 'capture' may actually be the natural outcome of academic freedom and critical thought.
  • Scrutiny of university presidents regarding their response to antisemitism and other issues could be seen as part of their duty to balance free speech with the need to create a safe and inclusive environment for all students.
  • The concept of colorblindness, while well-intentioned, may overlook the importance of recognizing and addressing the unique challenges and discrimination faced by people of color.
  • The shift from colorblindness to identity politics could be interpreted as a move towards acknowledging and valuing the diverse experiences and identities of individuals, rather than ignoring them.

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#353 — Race & Reason

Police racial bias and crime rates

Harris and Hughes address the complex relationship between police practices, perceptions of safety, and the racial dynamics of crime rates in American cities.

Necessity of noticing race in high-crime areas

In high-crime areas, particularly in cities like New York, there is a palpable necessity for police to be cognizant of race, as Hughes confirms while discussing his experiences and NYPD statistics. Harris highlights that higher crime rates in specific racial communities affect how individuals, including police officers, perceive and react in terms of safety and suspicion.

Effects on policing in cities like New York

Hughes notes that in many American cities, crime statistics show strong racial patterns. This inevitably influences public perception and law enforcement practices. In New York City, where the majority of cops are of color, there is an acknowledgment that a significant portion of shootings and violent crimes are committed by individuals who are ...

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Police racial bias and crime rates

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The detailed racial patterns in crime statistics in American cities reflect the disproportionate involvement of certain racial groups in criminal activities. These statistics often show higher rates of crimes like shootings and violent offenses among black and Hispanic individuals. The prevalence of these patterns can influence public perceptions and law enforcement strategies in urban areas. Understanding these patterns is crucial for addressing issues of racial bias and crime within the criminal justice system.
  • Jesse Jackson's comments about feeling safer when a white person is behind him at night reflect a complex societal issue where racial stereotypes and perceptions influence feelings of safety and security. This statement hig ...

Counterarguments

  • The necessity of noticing race in high-crime areas can perpetuate stereotypes and may not address the root causes of crime, such as poverty and lack of opportunities.
  • Focusing on race in policing strategies can lead to racial profiling, which is both unjust and ineffective in reducing crime.
  • Crime statistics may show racial patterns, but these patterns could be influenced by systemic biases in law enforcement practices, such as over-policing in certain communities.
  • The composition of the police force does not necessarily prevent biased policing practices; systemic issues can persist regardless of the officers' racial backgrounds.
  • Jesse Jackson's comments, while reflecting a personal feeling, shoul ...

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#353 — Race & Reason

Diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) policies

Hughes reflects on the origins of DEI policies, framing them as well-intentioned measures aimed at fostering a more representative and opportunistic workplace.

Original benign idea of DEI policies

Efforts to increase representation and opportunities

Hughes discusses the original and benign idea of DEI, suggesting it was conceived as a strategy that his father might have endorsed during his time in corp ...

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Diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) policies

Additional Materials

Clarifications

...

Counterarguments

  • DEI initiatives can sometimes lead to a checkbox mentality where companies focus more on meeting diversity quotas rather than fostering true inclusion and equity.
  • There is a risk that DEI policies can inadvertently create reverse discrimination, where individuals from majority groups feel they are being unfairly treated or overlooked for opportunities.
  • DEI efforts may be perceived as patronizing or tokenistic if not implemented with genuine commitment, potentially undermining the very goals they aim to achieve.
  • The focus on DEI can sometimes overshadow meritocracy, leading to concerns that the most qualified individuals may not be the ones selected for positions or promotions.
  • DEI policies can be challenging to implement effectively across different cultural contexts, as what constitutes diversity, equity, and inclusion can vary widely from one region or country to anothe ...

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#353 — Race & Reason

Failures of elite ideology

Hughes addresses the disconnect between the language used by academic and social elites and the preferences of the broader Hispanic community.

Elite embrace of "Latinx" despite Hispanic non-use

Hughes notes that the term "Latinx," which emerged in elite academic circles such as Columbia University, has not found the same traction within Hispanic communities, particularly in working-class contexts. He shares that this term felt odd and mismatched with his experiences within his own Puerto Rican family.

Pew research showing 95-96% of Hispanics don't use or dislike "Latinx"

Backing up his own personal observations, Hughes cites Pew res ...

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Failures of elite ideology

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The term "Latinx" is a gender-neutral alternative to Latino or Latina, aiming to be more inclusive of gender diversity within the Latin American community. It emerged in academic and activist circles in the United States to address the limitations of traditional gendered language. However, its adoption has been limited among Hispanic communities, with many preferring traditional gendered terms or finding "Latinx" unfamiliar and disconnected from their cultural identities. This discrepancy highlights a broader discussion about language, identity, and inclusivity within diverse communities.
  • The disconnect between academic and social elites' language and the preferences of the broader Hispanic community highlights a disparity in the adoption of certain terms like "Latinx." While these terms may gain popularity in elite circles, they may not resonate with or be widely accepted by the Hispanic population, especially in working-class contexts. This discrepancy underscores the importance of considering the perspectives and preferences of the community being described when introducing new terminology.
  • Hughes' personal experiences within his Puerto Rican family reflect his direct interactions and observations of how the term "Latinx" felt out of place or unfamiliar in his familial context. This insight provides a specific example of the disconnect between elite academic language and the preferences of Hispanic communities, particularly in working-class settings. Hughes uses his family's reactions to illustrate how the term "Latinx" may not resonate with broader Hispanic populati ...

Counterarguments

  • The term "Latinx" may be more prevalent among younger generations or those more engaged with gender inclusivity, suggesting a potential generational or ideological divide rather than a complete rejection by the Hispanic community.
  • Language evolves, and terms like "Latinx" could gain wider acceptance over time as awareness and usage increase.
  • The adoption of "Latinx" by academic and social elites could be seen as an effort to promote inclusivity and challenge gender norms within the Spanish language, which traditionally defaults to masculine forms.
  • The term "Latinx" might be more popular or relevant in certain contexts, such as LGBTQ+ spaces, where the need for a gender-neutral term is more acutely felt.
  • The Pew research cited may not capture the full complexity of attitudes toward "Latinx," as opinions can vary widely based on factors like age, education, political affiliation, and engagement with LGBTQ+ communities.
  • The use of "Latinx" by elites could be part of a broader effort to create a more inclusive discour ...

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#353 — Race & Reason

Ideological capture at universities

Universities are becoming increasingly scrutinized for how they address sensitive issues such as antisemitism, as well as their adherence to a set of ideological norms that may compromise their commitment to impartiality and freedom of expression.

University presidents unable to condemn antisemitism

In a climate of heightening concern over hate speech and discrimination on campus, some university presidents appear to struggle with unequivocally condemning antisemitism. This reluctance has sparked a broader conversation about the potential for 'ideological capture' at places of higher learning, where administrative and academic policies may be heavily influenced by certain political or ideological beliefs.

Recent congressional hearings questioning university policies

The issue has escalated to the point of congressional intervention, with recent congressional hearings questioning university policies and their leaders' responses to incidents of a ...

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Ideological capture at universities

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Ideological capture at universities refers to a situation where the administrative and academic decisions of higher education institutions are significantly influenced by specific political or ideological beliefs. This influence can potentially compromise the institutions' commitment to impartiality, academic freedom, and freedom of expression. It raises concerns about whether universities are able to maintain a balanced and inclusive environment for diverse perspectives while upholding academic integrity. The concept highlights the challenges universities face in navigating complex societal issues while ensuring a fair and open exchange of ideas within their academic communities.
  • University presidents facing challenges in unequivocally condemning antisemitism may stem from various factors, such as concerns about backlash, navigating complex political landscapes, or differing interpretations of what constitutes antisemitism. This issue highlights the delicate balance leaders must strike between upholding freedom of expression and ensuring a safe and inclusive campus environment for all students. The reluctance to condemn antisemitism can lead to debates about the role of universities in addressing hate speech and discrimination effectively. It underscores the broader societal discussions around the responsibilities and challenges faced by academic institutions in promoting diversity, inclusion, and combating bigotry.
  • Recent congressional hearings questioning university policies are formal meetings held by the United States Congress to examine and discuss issues related to how universities handle sensitive topics like antisemitism. These hearings involve lawmakers questioning university officials about their policies and responses to incidents of hate speech on campus. The purpose is to assess whether universities are effectively balancing free speech rights with the need to combat discrimination and promote inclusivity. Congressional hearings serve as a way for the government to oversee and address concerns regarding how universities address and respond to instances of antisemitism and other forms of bigotry.
  • Scrutiny from lawmakers involves close examination and evaluation of actions or policies by government officials who have the auth ...

Counterarguments

  • Universities may argue that the complexity of antisemitism and other forms of hate speech requires a nuanced approach rather than simple condemnation, to ensure that educational discussions on related topics can continue.
  • The concept of ideological capture could be overstated, as universities often have a wide range of viewpoints among faculty and students, and what is perceived as capture may simply be the prevalence of certain popular ideas.
  • Congressional hearings might not always reflect the on-the-ground realities of university life and could be influenced by political agendas that do not align with academic freedom and independence.
  • The promotion of diversity and inclusivity itself may sometimes require challenging conversations that could be misinterpreted as a lack of condemnation of bigotry.
  • The term "ideological capture" might not accurately describe the situation at universities, as the adoption of certain policies could be the result of democratic processes within the institution, reflecting the collective ...

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#353 — Race & Reason

The concept of colorblindness

Sam Harris and his guest, Coleman Hughes, engage in a detailed conversation about the concept of colorblindness, its implications, and its current status in political discourse based on Hughes’s new book "The End of Race Politics, Arguments for a Colorblind America."

Treating people without regard to race

Hughes defines colorblindness in terms of race as an effort to treat individuals without regard to their race and to strive to remove race as a category from public policy. Harris aligns with this perspective, sharing that he does not find race ethically or politically significant unless it connects to addressing historical injustices that require rectification. He envisions a future where racial differences are acknowledged and may even be celebrated but do not carry political or ethical weight.

Abandonment of colorblindness as a goal on the left

While the potential abandonment by the political left of colorblindness as a goal is not directly detailed, Harris does indicate that the concept is increasingly being side-lined. He suggests that colorblindness is being traded for political factionalism, which he believes distorts politics and moral discourse. The complexity of adhering to colorblindness, especially when faced with racial disparities in areas such as crime rates, is acknowle ...

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The concept of colorblindness

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Sam Harris and Coleman Hughes discuss the concept of colorblindness, which involves treating individuals without regard to their race and removing race as a category from public policy. They believe that race should not hold significant ethical or political weight unless it relates to rectifying historical injustices. While acknowledging the complexities, Hughes advocates for a colorblind approach, emphasizing reduced crime as a way to combat racial discrimination. Harris highlights concerns about the potential abandonment of colorblindness as a goal, attributing it to increasing political factionalism and moral discourse distortion.
  • Colorblindness in the context of race and public policy advocates for treating individuals without considering their race and aims to eliminate race as a factor in policy decisions. It suggests that policies should be race-neutral, focusing on equality and fairness for all individuals regardless of their racial background. The concept emphasizes the idea that people should be judged based on their individual merits and actions rather than their race. Advocates of colorblindness argue that by removing race as a consideration in policy-making, society can move towards a more equitable and just system.
  • The potential abandonment of colorblindness as a goal on the polit ...

Counterarguments

  • The concept of colorblindness may overlook the systemic nature of racial inequalities, which can persist even when individuals are treated equally in the present.
  • Colorblind policies may fail to address the specific needs of racial groups that have been historically marginalized or discriminated against.
  • Acknowledging racial differences without addressing the power dynamics and privileges associated with race may perpetuate existing disparities.
  • The pushback against colorblindness could be seen as a call for more nuanced approaches to racial justice that recognize the complexity of racial identities and experiences.
  • Some critics argue that colorblindness can inadvertently maintain the status quo by ignoring the ways in which race shapes people's opportunities and life outcomes.
  • The focus on reducing crime to diminish racial discrimination may not address the root causes of both crime and discrimination, such as poverty, lack of education, and systemic bias.
  • The idea ...

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