#483 – Julia Shaw: Criminal Psychology of Murder, Serial Killers, Memory & Sex
In this episode of the Lex Fridman Podcast, psychologist Julia Shaw discusses the psychological traits often labeled as "evil," explaining how characteristics like psychopathy and narcissism exist on a spectrum rather than as absolute states. Shaw examines how memory functions in legal contexts, sharing research on false memory formation and discussing her work with AI technology to preserve accurate emotional memories.
The conversation explores several other areas of psychological research, including human sexuality and its spectrum of expression, the role of consent in non-traditional relationships, and the psychology behind environmental crimes. Using the Volkswagen emissions scandal as an example, Shaw analyzes how social pressures and financial motivations can lead otherwise rational professionals to participate in harmful practices, while also addressing the importance of early detection and prevention of environmental crimes.
This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the Oct 14, 2025 episode of the Lex Fridman Podcast
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1-Page Summary
The Continuum of Dark Traits and Nature of Evil
In a conversation with Lex Fridman, psychologist Julia Shaw challenges the use of the term "evil," explaining that traits like psychopathy, sadism, narcissism, and Machiavellianism exist on a spectrum rather than as binary labels. Shaw argues that using the term "evil" creates an artificial separation between 'us' and 'them,' hindering our ability to understand and prevent harmful behaviors.
Shaw emphasizes the importance of empathy, even for those who commit atrocities, and advocates for understanding the psychological and social factors that lead to harmful behaviors. She recommends seeking psychological help when experiencing persistent dark fantasies, particularly those directed at specific individuals, to prevent potential escalation to harmful actions.
The Malleability and Unreliability of Human Memory
Shaw illuminates the surprising fragility of human memory, particularly in legal contexts. Through her research, she has demonstrated how false memories can be implanted through suggestive questioning and imagination, with up to 70% of study participants forming false memories after just a few sessions.
To address these challenges, Shaw co-founded Spot, a company using AI technology to record and preserve accurate emotional memories. She emphasizes the importance of contemporaneous evidence, especially in legal proceedings, advising witnesses to document their memories immediately to maintain accuracy.
The Psychology of Sexuality and Non-traditional Behaviors
Drawing from her research and personal experience as a bi person, Shaw discusses how sexuality exists on a spectrum, referencing both the Kinsey Scale and the Klein sexual orientation grid. She highlights how bisexuality and non-heteronormative orientations are common but often misunderstood due to social stigma and pressure.
Shaw also explores the prevalence of kinks and fetishes, emphasizing the importance of consent and communication in these contexts. She explains how BDSM activities can provide psychological release from daily pressures through consensual power dynamics.
The Psychology and Motivations Behind Environmental Crimes
Using the Volkswagen emissions scandal as a case study, Shaw examines why "good" people engage in environmental crimes. She explores how social pressure and financial ambition can drive intelligent professionals to participate in deceptive practices, even when they understand the harmful consequences.
Shaw emphasizes the crucial role of technology, particularly satellite imaging, in tracking and measuring environmental crimes. She advocates for swift identification of these crimes due to their significant financial, health, and structural impacts on the planet, while highlighting the importance of understanding the underlying motivations to develop effective preventive strategies.
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Counterarguments
- The concept of "evil" may still have utility in moral or philosophical discussions, even if psychological traits exist on a spectrum.
- While empathy is important, there may be limits to its applicability, especially in legal contexts where accountability and justice are also important considerations.
- The encouragement to seek psychological help for dark fantasies, while well-intentioned, may not account for the complexity of access to mental health services or the stigma that still exists around seeking help.
- While Spot may aim to preserve accurate emotional memories, the reliance on AI technology could raise concerns about privacy, data security, and the potential for misuse of sensitive information.
- The assertion that sexuality exists on a spectrum may not fully acknowledge or respect the lived experiences of individuals who identify strongly with a particular sexual orientation and do not experience their sexuality as fluid.
- The discussion of kinks and fetishes, while emphasizing consent and communication, may not address the broader societal implications and the potential for exploitation or harm in certain contexts.
- The analysis of environmental crimes may oversimplify the complex interplay of factors that lead to such actions, potentially underestimating the role of systemic issues and corporate culture.
- The focus on technology for tracking environmental crimes might overlook the need for stronger regulatory frameworks and international cooperation to prevent such crimes.
- The call for swift identification and understanding of motivations behind environmental crimes could be seen as idealistic, given the often intricate and global nature of environmental issues and the challenges in enforcing environmental laws.
Actionables
- You can foster empathy by writing a short story from the perspective of someone who has made serious mistakes. This exercise encourages you to explore the complexities of human behavior and the factors that lead individuals to act in certain ways, helping you understand that dark traits exist on a spectrum and that empathy is crucial for everyone.
- Start a personal journal to document your emotional responses to daily events, which can serve as contemporaneous evidence of your experiences. This habit can help you appreciate the malleability of memory by comparing your real-time accounts with how you remember events weeks or months later, reinforcing the importance of accurate record-keeping.
- Engage in open conversations with friends about the diversity of human sexuality, using respectful dialogue to normalize the spectrum of sexual orientations and preferences. By doing so, you contribute to a culture of consent and communication, which is essential for healthy expressions of sexuality, including kinks and fetishes.
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"Continuum Of Dark Traits and Nature of Evil"
Psychologist Julia Shaw highlights the complexity of human behavior and the inadequacy of the term "evil" during her conversation with Lex Fridman about her book, emphasizing the importance of seeing negative traits as part of a spectrum.
Psychopathy, Sadism, Narcissism, and Machiavellianism Exist On a Spectrum, Not a Binary Label
Scoring High or Low On Traits
Shaw and Lex Fridman discuss how traits commonly associated with "evil" — psychopathy, sadism, narcissism, and Machiavellianism — known as the dark tetrad, exist along a continuum. These personality traits are measurable on scales, with individuals scoring high or low. Psychopathy, for instance, includes deceptiveness and a lack of empathy, leading some individuals to be more comfortable with causing harm. While everyone scores somewhere on these traits, scoring subclinically suggests showing related traits without meeting the threshold for a clinical diagnosis.
"Evil" Dehumanizes and Otherizes
Shaw argues that using the term "evil" to describe people creates an artificial separation between 'us' and 'them,' which stymies conversations about understanding harmful behaviors. Terms like "evil" lead to a lack of empathy and prevent us from understanding and rehabilitating those who commit harmful acts.
Empathy is crucial for understanding people typically labeled as evil, and Shaw stresses that it's vital to empathize even with those who have committed atrocities. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the psychological and social factors leading to harmful behaviors, which can facilitate prevention and rehabilitation. By reframing how we approach individuals labeled as "evil," we can study and comprehend patterns in behavior that lead to more informed judgments by key decision-makers.
Despite the challenges content creators face when covering sensitive cases and the risk that some perpetrators may be seeking fame, Shaw believes in the importance of empathy. She practices an approach focused on understanding the underlying motives and patterns in criminal behavior, rather than emotional investment in each case.
Shaw sympathizes with those who commit heinous acts, acknowledging the potential for harmful actions within everyone and highlighting the importance of understanding triggers. Recognizing emotions like loneliness can lead to extreme outcomes if unaddressed, thereby underlining the necessity of rehearsing resistance to evil impulses to prevent harm. When persistent dark fantasies occur, particularly toward specific individuals, the recommendation is to seek psychological help before these fantasies escalate to actions.
Shaw cites Philip Zimbardo's perspective on evil, advocating fo ...
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"Continuum Of Dark Traits and Nature of Evil"
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Clarifications
- The dark tetrad traits - psychopathy, sadism, narcissism, and Machiavellianism - are personality traits associated with malevolent behavior and interpersonal manipulation. Psychopathy involves traits like deceitfulness and lack of empathy. Sadism relates to deriving pleasure from inflicting pain or humiliation. Narcissism involves excessive self-focus and a lack of empathy for others. Machiavellianism is characterized by manipulation, exploitation, and a cynical view of human nature.
- Scoring subclinically on traits means exhibiting characteristics associated with a particular trait but not meeting the criteria for a clinical diagnosis of that trait. It indicates that an individual may display some features or behaviors related to a specific trait, but these traits are not severe or pronounced enough to be considered clinically significant. This term is often used in psychology to describe individuals who show mild or moderate signs of a particular trait without meeting the full diagnostic criteria for a psychological disorder. Subclinical scoring helps in understanding variations in traits within the general population and can provide insights into how these traits manifest in different individuals.
- Philip Zimbardo, a renowned psychologist, is known for his Stanford Prison Experiment, which explored the impact of situational factors on behavior. Zimbardo's perspective on evil emphasizes the importance of the "heroic imagination," which involves individuals envisioning themselves as heroes who can take positive actions to prevent harm and promote good in challenging situations. This concept encourages people to cultivate a sense of agency and responsibility to intervene and make a difference when faced with wrongdoing or harmful behaviors. Zimbardo's work underscores the potential for individuals to harness their inner strength and courage to combat evil and contribute to positive change in society.
- Restorative justice is an approach that focuses on repairing harm caused by crimes through dialogue and participation of both victims and offenders. It aims to hold offenders accountable, help them understand the impact of their actions, and prevent future harm. This concept empowers victims by involving them in the justice process and aims to address their needs for healing and closure. Restorative justice is seen as a complement to traditional criminal justice systems, offering a more holistic and community-centered approach to resolving conflicts and promoting rehabilitation.
- Psychological factors leading to harmful behaviors encompass a range of influences such as past experiences, mental health conditions, personality traits, and social environments. These factors can interact in complex ways, contributing to an individual's decision-making and actions. Understanding these psychological factors is crucial for prevention and rehabilitation efforts in addressing harmful behaviors. By examining the underlying motives and triggers behind harmful actions, interventions can be tailored to address specific psychological needs and mitigate the risk of future harm.
- Top-down measures in preventing harmful behavior involve implementing strategies and interventions at a systemic or organizational level to address and deter negative actions. This approach focuses on creating policies, regulations, and structures that influence behavior from a broader perspective, aiming to sh ...
Counterarguments
- While the dark traits are on a spectrum, there may be a threshold beyond which an individual's behavior becomes significantly more harmful, and this could warrant a different approach or label.
- Empathy is important, but there may be limits to its effectiveness, especially in cases where individuals have committed particularly heinous acts and show no remorse or desire to change.
- The concept of "evil" might be seen as a social or cultural construct, but it can serve a purpose in legal and moral frameworks to denote acts that are universally condemned.
- There is a risk that focusing too much on understanding and empathizing with perpetrators could lead to minimizing the experiences and trauma of victims.
- While most murders might not be premeditated, there are cases where premeditation is clear, and these cases might require a different approach in terms of justice and rehabilitation.
- The idea of restorative justice is valuable, but it may not be applicable or effective in all cases, especially those involving serial offenders or crimes with a high degree of public concern.
- The emphasis on psychological help for those with dark fantasies assumes that individuals will recognize their need for help and seek it out, which may not always ...
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The Malleability and Unreliability of Human Memory
Julia Shaw illuminates the surprising frailties of human memory, influencing how we perceive the past and the implications this has for legal proceedings.
Memories Are Reconstructions That Can Be Easily Distorted
False Memories Can Be Implanted Through Suggestive Questioning and Imagination, With Some Convinced of Events That Never Occurred
Shaw, author of "The Memory Illusion," emphasizes how easily memory can deceive us, pointing out that memories are "glitchy" regarding autobiographical accuracy. She explains how both collective and individual memories may interact, stating that sharing memories before recording individual recollections could lead to more detailed but unreliable collective memories.
Julia Shaw’s interest in memory's procedural implications, especially how to prevent distortion, ties in with her PhD work on implanting false memories of committing a crime. She successfully convinced people that they remembered committing a crime that never occurred. Shaw states that people are very capable of creating false memories as a normal memory process, and even memories with high confidence and multisensory details might not be accurate.
Issues With Eyewitness Testimony and Personal Recollections in Law
Maintaining Contemporaneous Evidence Preserves Information Accuracy
Shaw’s research concerns extend to legal challenges such as the role of eyewitness testimony, which has shifted due to the growing awareness of memory's unreliability. She has trained law enforcement and legal professionals, including those at the International Criminal Court, on memory and how to prevent further contamination of original memories.
One technique Shaw uses to implant false memories involved leading and suggestive questions, like asking participants to imagine an unlikely event. After gathering childhood information confirmed by loved ones of the participant and ensuring these events never occurred, Shaw begins a structured method of questioning. The potential for memory distortion is high—Shaw found that 70% of her study participants formed false memories after only a few sessions.
Shaw criticizes heavy reliance on autobiographical memories to trace back the origins of our current state, suggesting this oversimplification overlooks the brain's complexity. She disparages problematic therapy or hypnotherapy that can implant false memories, resulting in unreliable evidence. Shaw draws distinctions between the roles of therapists and researchers, indicating that therapists focus on managing a person's well-being and memories, while researchers like Shaw are more concerned with the evidentiary quality of memories.
Shaw cautions that technological developments like Gen AI can act as a "false memory machine," echoing the thoughts of Lex Fridman on the topic of memory modification through technology. She sees au ...
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The Malleability and Unreliability of Human Memory
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Clarifications
- Implanting false memories of committing a crime involves manipulating someone's recollection to make them believe they were involved in a criminal act that never actually occurred. This process can be achieved through suggestive questioning and imagination techniques, leading individuals to vividly remember events that are entirely fabricated. Researchers like Julia Shaw have studied this phenomenon to demonstrate the malleability and unreliability of human memory, highlighting how easily false memories can be created and mistaken as real experiences. Such false memories can have significant implications, especially in legal contexts where eyewitness testimony and personal recollections play crucial roles.
- Memory distortion through leading and suggestive questions occurs when individuals are influenced to remember events inaccurately due to the way questions are posed to them. This phenomenon can lead to the creation of false memories, where individuals genuinely believe in the occurrence of events that never actually happened. The use of leading and suggestive questions can manipulate the recall process, impacting the accuracy and reliability of memories. Researchers like Julia Shaw have demonstrated how easily false memories can be implanted through such questioning techniques, highlighting the malleability of human memory.
- Contemporaneous evidence is information recorded or documented at the time an event occurs. It is considered highly reliable as it captures details when memories are fresh and less susceptible to distortion. In legal contexts, contemporaneous evidence can include written notes, photographs, or recordings made immediately after an inci ...
Counterarguments
- Memories, while malleable, are not always unreliable; they can be accurate, especially when reinforced by frequent recall and external corroboration.
- The process of memory reconstruction can sometimes enhance the accuracy of a memory by integrating new, relevant information.
- Not all suggestive questioning leads to false memories; the outcome can depend on the individual's susceptibility and the context of the questioning.
- Collective memories can sometimes be more accurate due to the pooling of multiple perspectives, which can correct individual errors.
- A certain level of confidence and multisensory detail in memories might correlate with accuracy, although it is not a guarantee.
- Eyewitness testimony, while imperfect, can still be valuable in legal proceedings when corroborated by other evidence and when proper interviewing techniques are used.
- The use of contemporaneous evidence is not foolproof, as initial perceptions and recordings can also be subject to biases and inaccuracies.
- The percentage of people who form false memories in studies may not reflect real-world situations, where there are often more cues to aid memory.
- Autobiographical memories, despite their potential for inaccuracy, play a crucial role in personal identity and continuity over time.
- Not all therapy or hypnotherapy leads to the creation of false memories; these practices can be beneficial when conducted ethically and with proper safeguards.
- Technological developments like Gen ...
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The Psychology of Sexuality and Non-traditional Behaviors
Julia Shaw's commentary offers an informative look into sexuality's spectrum and the complexities surrounding non-traditional sexual behaviors. Her insights emphasize the need for more open conversations about sexuality, the stigmatization individuals face, and the psychological implications of the current state of social understanding.
Sexuality Is a Spectrum; Bisexuality and Non-heteronormative Orientations Are Common
Shaw, a bi person and a scientist, shares that bisexuality and non-heteronormative orientations are common but often misunderstood. Her research, including work for her book "Bi," highlights the scarcity of scientific literature on bisexuality, which she attributes to varied terminology in research fields.
Stigma, Invisibility, and Social Pressure Hinder Open Sexual Exploration
Shaw points out that bisexuality is frequently seen as a phase or a stepping stone to being gay. This stereotype, particularly prevalent for bi men, contributes to social pressures and phobias within both heteronormative and queer communities, resulting in skepticism or dismissal.
Alfred Kinsey's post-WWII research introduced the Kinsey Scale, ranging from 0 (exclusively heterosexual) to 6 (exclusively homosexual), illustrating sexuality as a continuum. The Klein sexual orientation grid furthers this understanding by incorporating multiple aspects of sexuality, including identity and fantasies. Shaw emphasizes the grid's complexity, noting that it accounts for individuals' past, present, and ideal sexual experiences.
Shaw links the pressure to conform to monogamy with misunderstandings around sexuality. She argues against a one-size-fits-all approach to relationships and advocates for the acknowledgment of polyamory and open relationships.
Kinks, Fetishes, and Non-traditional Sexual Behaviors: Prevalence and Destigmatization in a Consent and Harm Reduction Framework
Disinhibition and Freedom From Norms: Psychological Appeal and Functions
Shaw delves into kinks and fetishes, explaining t ...
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Actionables
- You can explore your own sexuality by creating a personal sexuality map, drawing from the concept of sexuality as a continuum. Start with a blank sheet of paper and plot out various points in your life where you've felt different attractions or had different experiences. Connect these points to see how your sexuality may have shifted or evolved over time. This visual representation can help you understand your own sexual journey without the constraints of labels.
- Develop a "communication playbook" for discussing kinks and fetishes with a partner. This should include setting boundaries, using safe words, and expressing desires without judgment. Practice by writing down scenarios and how you would navigate the conversation, focusing on clarity and consent. This exercise can prepare you for real-life discussions and ensure that when you engage in kink-related activities, they are consensual and fulfilli ...
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The Psychology and Motivations Behind Environmental Crimes
Julia Shaw's insights delve into the motivations driving individuals and corporations to commit environmental crimes, stressing the importance of awareness and technology in both understanding and preventing these crimes.
Corporate Environmental Crimes: Deliberate Deception and Rationalization, as Seen In the Volkswagen Emissions Scandal
Shaw specifically discusses the Volkswagen emissions scandal, where the company embedded a "defeat device" in their cars to falsely show low emission levels, while in reality, the emissions were up to 40 times over the limit. This deception, which Shaw uses as a case study, lasted for a decade and had severe health impacts such as asthma and premature death.
Social Pressure and Financial Ambition Drive "Good" People To Unethical Acts
Shaw queries why intelligent engineers, fully cognizant of the damaging effects of emissions, would engage in such deceptive acts and persist in lying when exposed. She ponders on the social pressures and financial ambitions that incite "good" people to partake in unethical acts. Shaw speaks of an emissions engineer who, despite understanding the health ramifications, continued to produce polluting cars due to social pressure and rationalizations, illustrating the psychological complexity behind such crimes.
The manipulation of market forces and perceived success through dishonesty leads companies into a cascade effect of industry malpractice. Cheating and fudging facts become industry norms, motivating others to also deceive just to remain competitive.
Tackling Environmental Crimes Needs Monitoring, Enforcement, and Shared Planet Protection Responsibility
Technology and Awareness Aid Environmental Crime Prevention, but Understanding Drivers Is Crucial
Shaw discusses the vital roles of researchers, both terrestrial and extraterrestrial, and law enforcers in halting environmental crimes. For example, satellites that image Earth chronicle environmental changes and are key to tracking and measuring such crimes.
Shaw amplifies the essential nature of identifying environmental crimes quickly because they bear significant financial, health, and structural impacts on the planet. She champions effective enforcement and a coll ...
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The Psychology and Motivations Behind Environmental Crimes
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Counterarguments
- While technology and awareness are crucial, there may be limitations in their effectiveness due to resource constraints, political will, and the complexity of global supply chains.
- The focus on individual and corporate motivations may overlook systemic issues and broader economic structures that incentivize environmental crimes.
- Emphasizing the role of "good" people being driven to unethical acts might oversimplify the moral and ethical landscape within which individuals operate, potentially underestimating the role of deliberate and knowing misconduct.
- The idea that industry norms of cheating and dishonesty are driven by market forces and perceived success could be challenged by pointing out that there are industries and companies that prioritize ethical behavior and transparency despite market pressures.
- The reliance on satellite technology for monitoring environmental crimes might not be sufficient in areas where such crimes are subtle or require on-the-ground verification.
- The assertion that education and understanding at all levels are paramount could be critiqued by arguing that without significant legal and financial consequences, education alone may not deter environmental crimes.
- The belief in shared responsibility for protecting the Earth could be seen as diluting the accountability of ...
Actionables
- You can start a digital journal to track your personal environmental impact and reflect on ethical choices. Use a simple app or document to record daily activities that may have environmental consequences, such as your transportation choices, energy usage, and consumption habits. This self-monitoring can increase your awareness and help you identify areas for improvement, fostering a sense of personal accountability.
- Create a "truth in advertising" social media challenge to promote corporate transparency. Encourage friends and followers to share examples of companies that are honest about their environmental impact, using a specific hashtag. This grassroots movement can put social pressure on businesses to be more transparent and can reward those that are already doing so, leveraging the power of social media to create a culture of honesty.
- Engage in micro-volunteering for environmental monito ...
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