#466 – Jeffrey Wasserstrom: China, Xi Jinping, Trade War, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Mao
In this episode of the Lex Fridman Podcast, China expert Jeffrey Wasserstrom examines the role of Confucian philosophy in modern Chinese politics and society. He explores how Xi Jinping's leadership style combines traditional Confucian values with communist ideology—a departure from Mao Zedong's approach—and discusses China's transformation from Mao's era through Deng Xiaoping's market reforms to the present day.
The conversation also covers China's complex relationships with Hong Kong and Taiwan. Wasserstrom analyzes how the implementation of Hong Kong's national security law has affected the city's autonomy, and examines the implications for Taiwan. He discusses how economic interdependence between China and other nations influences regional stability, while considering the role of U.S. support for Taiwan in these dynamics.
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Influence of Chinese Philosophy, Especially Confucianism, on Politics and Society
Jeffrey Wasserstrom explains that Confucianism, with its emphasis on hierarchy, education, and meritocracy, continues to shape Chinese politics and society. The philosophy promotes stable hierarchies, education, and the study of historical exemplars to address current issues. Xi Jinping's administration demonstrates a unique blend of Confucian values with communist ideology, marking a stark contrast from Mao's rejection of Confucianism. Xi uses traditional culture to legitimize the Party's rule while selectively adopting Confucian principles that support his agenda.
Rise and Evolution of Chinese Communist Party's Power
Under Mao Zedong's leadership (1949-1976), China experienced radical transformation marked by catastrophic policies like the Great Leap Forward. Wasserstrom notes that while Mao's actions endangered the communist regime, Xi Jinping now focuses on Mao's contribution to national strength rather than the chaos of his era.
Following Mao's death, Deng Xiaoping steered China toward global economic integration through market reforms, leading to unprecedented economic growth. However, these reforms also created significant wealth inequality. Wasserstrom points out that current leader Xi Jinping has tightened control over various regions and expressions of Chinese identity, aiming to prevent the kind of dissolution that befell the Soviet Union.
China's Tense Relations With Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the World
The implementation of the national security law in Hong Kong has effectively erased many distinctions between the city and mainland China. Wasserstrom reflects on Hong Kong's previous openness, noting how the city once maintained a free press and tolerance for protests. The 2019 protests against an extradition bill highlighted China's growing control over the city.
Regarding Taiwan, Wasserstrom emphasizes that Hong Kong's diminishing autonomy serves as a warning about closer integration with China. While China maintains its goal of eventual unification with Taiwan, Fridman points out that economic interdependence might help stabilize tensions. The situation remains complex, with U.S. support for Taiwan adding another layer of complexity to U.S.-China relations.
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Counterarguments
- Confucianism's influence on modern Chinese politics can be overstated, as current policies may be more driven by contemporary political considerations than ancient philosophies.
- The blending of Confucian values with communist ideology could be seen as opportunistic, using cultural heritage selectively to maintain the Party's power rather than a genuine integration of Confucian principles.
- The legitimacy of the Party's rule in China might be attributed to economic success and nationalism rather than the strategic use of traditional culture.
- Mao Zedong's era, despite its radical policies, also included efforts to modernize China and improve literacy, which some argue laid the groundwork for future reforms.
- Deng Xiaoping's market reforms, while leading to economic growth, also introduced new policies like the "one country, two systems" framework, which could be argued to have contributed to the unique identities of regions like Hong Kong and Macau.
- The tightening of control over regions and expressions of Chinese identity by Xi Jinping could be seen as a response to internal and external challenges to national unity and sovereignty, rather than solely an authoritarian impulse.
- The national security law in Hong Kong could be argued to be necessary for maintaining stability and national security, as viewed by the Chinese government, rather than an outright erasure of distinctions.
- The 2019 protests in Hong Kong can be interpreted from multiple perspectives, with some arguing that they represented a defense of local autonomy and others seeing them as a threat to law and order.
- The situation in Hong Kong might not necessarily serve as a direct warning to Taiwan, as Taiwan has its own unique political, social, and historical context.
- The goal of eventual unification with Taiwan is a complex issue with historical roots, and there are voices within Taiwan that advocate for different forms of relationship with the mainland, including maintaining the status quo or seeking formal independence.
- Economic interdependence between China and Taiwan is multifaceted, and while it might help stabilize tensions, it also creates vulnerabilities and dependencies that can be sources of leverage and conflict.
- U.S. support for Taiwan is a component of broader U.S. foreign policy objectives in the region, and there are diverse opinions within the U.S. about the nature and extent of this support.
Actionables
- You can explore the influence of Confucianism on modern society by observing local community structures and comparing them to Confucian principles. For example, notice how respect for elders, emphasis on education, and merit-based achievements manifest in your neighborhood or workplace. This can help you understand the practical applications of philosophical ideas in everyday life.
- Enhance your understanding of global politics by following the developments in Hong Kong and Taiwan through diverse media sources. By comparing reports from different countries and types of media, you can form a more nuanced view of international relations and the impact of policies on local populations.
- Use economic news as a lens to examine the interplay between politics and economics by tracking how changes in U.S.-China relations affect market trends. This could involve monitoring stock market fluctuations, trade deal negotiations, and currency exchange rates to see firsthand how political decisions can have economic repercussions.
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Influence of Chinese Philosophy, Especially Confucianism, on Politics and Society
The influence of Confucianism, with its focus on hierarchy, education, and meritocracy, permeates the fabric of Chinese politics and society. Xi Jinping's administration specifically exemplifies a philosophical blend characterized by the reconciliation of Confucian values with communist ideology.
Confucianism's Influence on Chinese Politics and Governance
Confucian ideals have historically shaped the governance and political structure of China, creating a bureaucracy anchored in education and merit.
Confucianism: Education, Meritocracy, and Exemplars Shape China's Civil Service
Jeffrey Wasserstrom explains that Confucianism is grounded in stable hierarchies and distinct roles within society. Confucius himself emphasized the importance of studying sages from the past to address current societal issues and advocated for a society where people owe duties to one another based on their hierarchical relationship, such as the relationship between father and son or emperor and ministers.
This philosophy contributes to the high value placed on education and meritocracy in China, as exemplified by the historical civil service exam system that aimed to select officials based on ability rather than birthright.
Wasserstrom also notes the optimistic view in Confucianism that people have the potential for goodness and that exposure to exemplary historical figures can inspire emulation. Even the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) echoed this belief in the transformative potential of education.
Chinese Communist Party Struggles to Reconcile Confucian Values With Marxist-Leninist Ideology, Leading To Complex Philosophical Blend
The CCP grapples with the integration of forward-looking Marxist-Leninist teachings with the backward-looking, golden-age aspirations of Confucianism.
Xi Jinping Emphasizes Traditional Culture to Legitimize the Party and Assert a Chinese Identity
Xi Jinping has sought to align himself with Confucian principles as part of his efforts to affirm the legitimacy of the CCP and promote a distinctly Chinese identity. This contrasts sharply with Mao's denouncement of Confucianism as feudal. Xi’s positive invocation of Confucian traditions, and his emphasis on historical continuity and national greatness, have been instrumental in his push for global recognition of China's stature and sovereignty.
In his leadership, Xi mirrors Chiang Kai-shek's reverence for Confuc ...
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Influence of Chinese Philosophy, Especially Confucianism, on Politics and Society
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Counterarguments
- Confucianism's emphasis on hierarchy can be criticized for potentially perpetuating social inequality and limiting individual freedoms.
- The historical shaping of China's governance by Confucian ideals may overlook the contributions of other philosophies and cultures that have also influenced Chinese politics.
- The value placed on stable hierarchies and distinct societal roles might not fully account for the dynamic and changing nature of modern societies.
- The civil service exam system, while based on merit, could be critiqued for not always being a fair reflection of ability due to various historical biases and corruption.
- The belief in the transformative power of education, while positive, may not address systemic issues that prevent equal access to education for all social groups.
- The CCP's struggle to integrate Marxist-Leninist teachings with Confucian values could be seen as an attempt to reconcile fundamentally conflicting ideologies for political convenience.
- Xi Jinping's alignment with Confucian principles could be viewed as a strategic move to consolidate power rather than a genuine philosophical commitment.
- The selective adoption of ...
Actionables
- You can explore the impact of historical philosophies on modern leadership by comparing your own values with those of Confucianism and Marxism-Leninism. Start by listing your core values and beliefs about leadership, education, and society. Then, research basic tenets of Confucianism and Marxism-Leninism to see where there might be parallels or divergences with your views. This exercise can help you understand the complexities leaders may face when merging different ideological frameworks and give you insight into your own leadership style.
- Enhance your understanding of cultural symbolism by identifying and researching symbols in your own culture that unify historical and contemporary values. Take symbols like the Great Wall mentioned in the context of China and find equivalents in your culture, such as a national monument, a historical figure, or a significant event. Study how these symbols are used by leaders to promote national identity and cohesion, and reflect on what these symbols mean to you personally.
- Apply the concept of meritocracy in your personal or profession ...
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Rise and Evolution of Chinese Communist Party's Power
The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has undergone several transformations since its inception, each leadership era bringing its distinct set of policies and global impact.
Mao Zedong's Leadership: Cult of Personality, Radical Transformation, Chaos and Disruption
Mao Zedong, who led the CCP from 1949 to 1976 instilled a cult of personality that left a complex legacy on China.
Mao's Policies Caused Suffering and Endangered the Communist Party, Highlighting the Perils of His Utopian Authoritarian Vision
After World War II, a civil war erupted between the Nationalists and the Communists, with the CPC eventually emerging victorious, enforcing a Leninist one-party rule. Mao intended to transform China rapidly, employing a utopian lens reminiscent of Marxist influences. His revolutionary vision postulated the peasantry as the revolutionary vanguard.
Mao lost himself in chaos and disorder, preferring class struggle as a method of promoting his ideologies. The period under his rule witnessed the Great Leap Forward, a policy aimed at catapulting the nation to industrial superiority, which instead ended in disaster. An incredible famine ensued, exacerbated by Mao's acquiescence to chaos, further risking the state building that others in the party were achieving more rationally.
Mao's disruptive policies resulted in catastrophic outcomes, partly due to officials supplying misleading information to escape political retribution. Mao's ego and his need to stand apart led to numerous casualties and policy failures that endangered the communist regime.
Jeffrey Wasserstrom reflects on Xi Jinping's interpretation of Mao’s legacy, suggesting that Xi draws from Mao's strengths in contributing to the nation's fortification and not the chaos and loss of control.
Deng Xiaoping's Shift From Mao's Radicalism to Pragmatic Market Reforms and Global Openness
Deng Xiaoping marked a departure from Mao's radical policies, following Mao's death, through pragmatic market reforms.
Deng's Reforms Spurred China's Economic Growth and Global Integration, but Also Fostered Inequality and Tension
Deng steered China away from Mao’s radicalism towards global economic integration, evidenced by significant market reforms. These changes were pivotal in the record-breaking economic growth that China has experienced. However, not everyone benefited equally from these reforms, leading to a sense of injustice, particularly as the gap between the wealthy and others seemed to be exacerbated by government connec ...
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Rise and Evolution of Chinese Communist Party's Power
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Counterarguments
- Mao's leadership also included significant achievements such as the establishment of the People's Republic of China and improvements in literacy and healthcare.
- The cult of personality around Mao may have been partly a product of the times and revolutionary fervor, not solely a result of his personal ambitions.
- Some argue that the Great Leap Forward, despite its failures, was an attempt to modernize China and improve its self-reliance, and that the famine was exacerbated by natural disasters as well as policy errors.
- The assertion that Mao preferred chaos and disorder could be contested by those who view his actions as attempts to continuously revolutionize society and keep the party close to its revolutionary roots.
- Deng Xiaoping's market reforms are sometimes seen as necessary for China's development, and the resulting inequality may be viewed as an inevitable phase in the country's transition to a market economy.
- The idea that Deng's reforms led to increased inequality could be nuanced by acknowledging that millions were lifted out of poverty as a result of these economic policies.
- The narrative of Chinese resurgence and resilience could be seen as a legitimate interpretation of China's history and development, rather than a mere perpetuation by current leadership.
- Xi Jinping's increased control could be argued as a response to contemporary challenges and a means to maintain stability and continue economic gr ...
Actionables
- Reflect on your personal leadership style by journaling about the traits you share with historical figures and how they've influenced your decisions. For example, if you find yourself being assertive and visionary like Mao, consider how to balance that with the pragmatism of Deng to avoid negative outcomes in your team or community projects.
- Create a personal development plan that incorporates lessons from past leaders to shape your future goals. If you admire Deng's market reforms, you might set a goal to learn more about economics or take a course in pragmatic problem-solving to enhance your decision-making skills.
- Engage in community discussions or online forums to ...
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China's Tense Relations With Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the World
China’s relationships with Hong Kong and Taiwan, as well as with the broader international community, are fraught with historical complexities and current geopolitical tensions.
Hong Kong 2019 Protests Challenged China, Prompting a Crackdown Eroding City Autonomy and Civil Liberties
Suppression of Hong Kong Protests, National Security Law Undermine "one Country, two Systems," Raising Concerns For Hong Kong's Identity, Taiwan Precedent
The deal made between London and Beijing over Hong Kong's future involved transferring sovereignty to the People's Republic of China in 1997 with the understanding that Hong Kong would operate under "One Country, Two Systems." Initially, Beijing was cautious, wanting to join the WTO and host the Olympics while relying on Hong Kong's economy and universities. However, by the 2010s, the differences between Beijing's and Hong Kong’s universities had lessened.
Protests began in Hong Kong as pushback against mainlandization, notably in 2014 regarding election processes for the chief executive, where only Beijing-approved candidates could run. These protests accelerated the process of China minimizing Hong Kong's distinct features.
The imposition of the national security law erased the differences between Hong Kong and mainland China, affecting the city's freer press and more open associational life. The 2019 extradition bill protests highlighted the power China could wield in imprisoning political activists and trying them under a different system.
Jeffrey Wasserstrom reflects on Hong Kong's past openness when the city had a remarkably free press and a high tolerance for protests. Shivani Matani discussed how events in Asian foreign correspondents' clubs could talk about issues censored elsewhere. The closure of cool bookstores in Hong Kong and their relocation to upstate New York symbolized the suppression in Hong Kong, undermining the "one country, two systems" framework.
Wasserstrom discusses the risk change for people traveling to China and expresses concerns for friends he might meet in opposition in Hong Kong. Hugo's "Do You Hear the People Sing" from Les Misérables became a protest song in Hong Kong, reflecting the spirit of resistance.
Activists in Hong Kong warned Taiwan that the city’s diminishing autonomy could set a precedent for Taiwan’s future under China’s vision. The protests served as a referendum on the right to protest itself. The developments in Hong Kong signal a loss of trust in Beijing's assurances of tolerance for diversity within the PRC.
Wasserstrom talks about the global influence of the Hong Kong protests and how the city represents a different notion of Chineseness—including openness to cosmopolitanism, in contrast to the nationalism promoted by the Chinese Communist Party.
China's Assertiveness Towards Taiwan and Its Growing Identity Heighten Tensions, Risk Conflict in Taiwan Strait
Us Support For Taiwan Complicates China's Approach and Us-china Relations
The relationship between Hong Kong and Taiwan serves as a warning signal to the latter about the risks of closer integration with China. The idea of "One Country, Two Systems" proposed to Hong Kong was also suggested for Taiwan, but the situation in Hong Kong post-1997 has been less smooth than Beijing anticipated. As Beijing’s patience waned and its need for the city lessened, the pressure on Hong Kong demonstrators rose.
The 2019 protests led to the imposition of the national security law by Beijing, which has been seen as undermining the "one country, two systems" principle. This has drawn comparisons between different age groups' responses to the protests, with a sense of urgency among younger generations due to longer-term implications. Activists have cautioned Taiwan by pointing to the erosion of Hong Kong's autonomy as a glimpse ...
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China's Tense Relations With Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the World
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Counterarguments
- The "one country, two systems" principle may still be in effect in certain aspects of Hong Kong's governance and legal system, despite the criticisms of the national security law.
- The national security law could be argued as necessary by some for maintaining stability and order in Hong Kong, especially after the disruptive protests.
- The integration of Hong Kong's and Beijing's universities could be seen as a positive development in terms of educational exchange and standardization.
- The protests in Hong Kong, while significant, may not have been universally supported within the city, and some residents may have viewed them as a source of unnecessary instability.
- The extradition bill was initially proposed to address a specific criminal case and may have had broader support if not for the fears of its potential misuse.
- The assertion that the national security law erased all differences between Hong Kong and mainland China could be challenged by pointing out remaining distinctions in legal, economic, and social systems.
- The warning to Taiwan from Hong Kong activists might not be fully applicable given the different historical, political, and military contexts of Taiwan.
- The idea that the Hong Kong protests represent a different notion of Chineseness could be contested by those who view the protests as not representative of the broader Chinese culture or identity.
- The assertiveness of Taiwan's identity and distancing from the PRC could be seen as a natural evolution of its unique history and democratic development rather than solely a reaction to events in Hong Kong.
- The speculation o ...
Actionables
- You can deepen your understanding of global political dynamics by following news sources from different regions, such as Asia-Pacific news outlets for perspectives on Hong Kong and Taiwan, and Western sources for international viewpoints. This will help you see how narratives differ and provide a more nuanced view of the tensions and issues discussed.
- Engage with your local community by attending talks or discussions at community centers or universities that focus on international relations, specifically regarding China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan. This will allow you to hear from experts and community members, which can broaden your perspective and understanding of the complexities involved.
- Support ...
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