#448 – Jordan Peterson: Nietzsche, Hitler, God, Psychopathy, Suffering & Meaning

As discussed by Jordan Peterson and Lex Fridman, the power of language is profound, impacting both perception and action, while the visionary work of some of history’s boldest thinkers warrants a cautious embrace, given their potential for both enlightenment and desolation.

Words and language have the power to change how people perceive and interact with the world

Peterson emphasized that communication changes not only actions but also the strategies people use to perceive the world, and in turn, how the world reveals itself to the individual. He believes that profound thinkers, notably writers like Dostoevsky, possess the power to evoke vivid imagery that can fundamentally transform a reader's perspective and actions. This effect is exemplified by Dostoevsky’s "Notes from Underground," which delves into the human condition by exploring how a lack of basic sexual interaction can drive individuals towards certain behaviors.

The significance of carefully examining and understanding even a single sentence from profound thinkers

Through their conversation, Peterson and Fridman express that thinkers like Nietzsche and Eliade distill deep meaning into every sentence, which demands thoughtful and respectful analysis. They argue that a single statement from these thinkers carries immense depth, warranting close scrutiny to unravel its significance.

The double-edged nature of powerful ideas and their ability to both enlighten and mislead

The discussion between Peterson and Fridman highlights the tension in powerful ideas that promise a utopian future, such as those proposed by Marx, or a dystopian one, such as Hitler’s ideologies. These ideas have the capacity to saturate perceptions with values and direct both action and emotion. However, they also carry significant risks, as evidenced by the catastrophic outcomes when communist doctrines have been enacted.

Peterson reflects on the intellectual hubris of figures like Marx. He cautions that those who attempt to design an ethos for society often underestimate the complexity of human motivat ...

Jordan Peterson explores the ways in which the internal battle against evil can prevent external conflict, and the benefits of facing life's challenges, using biblical examples and modern figures to articulate the necessity of struggle in achieving moral and spiritual growth.

Hardship and suffering, when voluntarily undertaken, can be a catalyst for moral and spiritual growth

Peterson reflects on the stories of Christ, Abraham, and Job to demonstrate how embracing life's challenges can lead to greater wisdom and redemption. He posits that the "hardest possible available adventure voluntarily undertaken," exemplified by Christ’s awareness of his impending cruel death, teaches that one must willingly accept life's existential burdens. Peterson insists that it's incumbent upon people to have the courage to maintain faith in themselves and in the reality of their situation, regardless of perceived insufficiencies.

The story of Cain and Abel illustrates how gratitude can be practiced as an antithesis to envy and resentment. Likewise, the biblical patriarch Jacob, who becomes Israel, demonstrates that struggles and trials can significantly transform lives. Peterson also mentions Moses’ transformation from an ordinary individual to a truth-speaking leader, underscoring the growth that comes from wrestling meaningfully with life’s challenges.

The importance of maintaining faith and courage in the face of seemingly insurmountable adversity

Figures like Nietzsche and Solzhenitsyn show that preserving one's moral integrity through extreme suffering is a profound accomplishment. Peterson brings up his own son as an example, describing how his naturally tough-minded and disagreeable disposition required careful constraint and guidance to aid his developmental regulation. In the biblical context, Job maintains his faith in the goodness of life despite relentless suffering, while Moses navigates adversities to achieve an optimistic outcome.

The paradoxical role of "monstrous" or formidable qualities in the development of moral character

Peterson discusses how certain aggressive or unyielding traits effectively confront evil and provoke positive change when properly managed. He claims that good men m ...

Jordan Peterson and Lex Fridman delve into the complexities of the online information landscape, acknowledging the rise of psychopathology and extreme ideologies.

The amplification of malicious, anonymous actors on social media platforms poses a serious threat to constructive discourse

Peterson observes that social media platforms are vulnerable to exploitation by a very tiny minority of seriously bad actors who can have a disproportionate influence, leading to the spread of paranoia and harmful communication. He suggests that social media channels separate anonymous accounts from verified ones to mitigate these risks, noting that people behave more badly when anonymous. He indicates a substantive danger to our culture through new modes of communication like social media, which we do not yet know how to regulate.

The ability of psychopathic manipulators to exploit the anonymity and attention-grabbing algorithms of social media requires vigilance and creative solutions

Peterson notes that the worldwide estimate of psychopaths is between three to five percent and emphasizes that social media disinhibits the machinations of these individuals. He stresses the need for vigilance and creative solutions to deal with this challenge. He proposes that separating anonymous accounts from those verified could reduce the disparity and the threat posed by these actors.

The need to distinguish between genuine truth-seekers and those using ideas as a cover for destructive agendas

The discussion addresses the difficulty of immediately and accurately identifying malicious actors online. Even experts, Peterson reveals through his interaction with Robert Hare, can be initially deceived by the sophisticated tactics of psychopathic manipulators. Online anonymity and algorithms that favor content that attracts immediate attention, often through negative emotions, are ripe for exploitation by those with destructive agendas.

The difficulty in immediately identifying malicious actors, as even experts can be initially fooled by their sophisticated tactics

Peterson recounts that even Robert Hare, an authority on psychopathy, was sometimes fooled during interviews with violent offender psychopaths and could only recognize the manipulative tactics upon review. This underscores the challenge of discerning genuine truth-seekers from those with sinister intentions.

The potential for young, impressionable individuals to become drawn into toxic online subcultures and ideologies

Fridman and Peterson discuss the lure of extreme online subcultures and ideologies. Fridman is hopeful that most trolls, especially young people experimenting with roles, may not und ...

Jordan Peterson’s admiration for Friedrich Nietzsche’s work and the profound influence it has had on his own thought process is evident throughout his discussions and lectures.

Peterson's deep fascination with and respect for Nietzsche's challenging, paradoxical ideas

Peterson was struck by the density and vitality of Nietzsche's writings when he first encountered them, stating that there might be nothing else that approximates their intellectual depth—with Dostoevsky being a possible exception. He fondly recalls his lecture series on "Beyond Good and Evil," describing the book as stunning. In conversation with Lex Fridman, Peterson demonstrates a profound engagement with Nietzsche's concepts, including challenging ideas such as "slave morality," which he relates to the modern "woke phenomenon."

Nietzsche's aphoristic writing style and ability to pack layers of meaning into concise statements

Peterson expresses particular appreciation for Nietzsche's aphoristic writing style, acknowledging how his ill health necessitated a condensed form of expression. He admires the way Nietzsche packs complex ideas into succinct statements, noting that every page of "Beyond Good and Evil" offers something noteworthy. Nietzsche's ability to evoke images and profoundly affect perception and action through his writing resonates with Peterson, highlighting Nietzsche's unique literary artistry.

The complex, sometimes misunderstood nature of Nietzsche's concepts like the "Ubermensch" and "will to power"

Fridman and Peterson acknowledge Nietzsche's personal struggles, with Peterson exhibiting an implicit admiration for how Nietzsche managed to make significant contributions to intellectual thought despite these challenges. Peterson delves into the concept of the "will to power," interpreting it as an expression of will and striving for self-exhaustion in being and becoming. He contrasts this interpretation with those offered by other thinkers such as Foucault or Marx and discusses the misrepresentation of Nietzsche's work by his sister, which contributed to public misunderstandings.

Peterson highlights the complexities in Nietzsche's prediction of the dire consequences resulting from the death of God, including the potential rise of harmful unifying forces like communism. Despite Nietzsche's assertion that this could lead humans to create their own values, Peterson sees this as a "colossal error," given the internal fractionation and plurality within the human psyche.

Distinguishing Nietzsche's genuine insights from their distortion and co-option for harmful ideological ends

Peterson grapples with Nietzsche's criticism of Christianity's institutionalization and his contention that gr ...

Jordan Peterson's personal experiences, especially his severe illness, have had a profound impact on his worldview, particularly his understanding of the human condition, the importance of relationships, and the concept of growth within adversity.

Peterson's severe illness and physical suffering, and how it deepened his appreciation for relationships and the "miracle of the mundane"

Peterson talks about a three-year period of severe illness and pain, describing it as worse than any pain he had previously experienced and patterned by an increase in discomfort throughout the day that would reset after sleeping. This experience led to a profound appreciation for the strength of his personal relationships and a deeper gratitude for "just ordinary ordinariness," such as the lack of pain during mundane moments like waiting in a pharmacy.

Peterson learned to reinvent his notion of hope during this period, reframing challenges as opportunities rather than succumbing to despair. He discusses maintaining hope and seeing difficulties in a new light, although he doesn't explicitly tie this to his illness during the relevant sections.

The importance of maintaining hope and faith even in the face of seemingly unbearable hardship

The conversations about his illness hint at Peterson's approach to maintaining hope and faith in the face of hardships. Walking 10 to 12 miles a day regardless of the weather or pain was a testament to his resilience and persistence, which served as a method to manage his suffering and perhaps an embodiment of maintaining hope and faith.

The role of family, friends, and community in providing support and meaning during times of crisis

Peterson's illness brought to light the crucial role of relationships in his life, especially the support from his family, friends, and community. He emphasizes the importance of connections with family and friends, stating that during times of hardship, one must shoulder life's burdens but not necessarily alone.

He gives a personal example of his involvement in his son's upbringing, reflecting on his method of disciplining his son as aiding his son's emotional and motivational maturity. Peterson underscores the depth of bonds with family members by discussing the hope provided by the love between his wife and son, which had ...